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  • rsrunningrebels

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    Dear RotoGrinders Community Members,

    I have one simple question: Do you feel that 20 and/or 50 Entry Max on all main GPPs would help level the DFS playing field or not?

    I’m not interested whether or not you think FD or DK would or would not eventually implement this proposal, rather; I’m solely interested in your opinion regarding whether or not limiting entries levels the playing field in GPPs.

    Specifically pertaining to $8 and $33/$40/$55 GPPs.

    Whether you are a legendary fisherman casting 150 times in a Pro Bass tourney or a kid fishing off the pier with just one line(up) at a time; your input is greatly appreciated.

  • rsrunningrebels

    • 876

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    @TeamTwerk said...

    I don’t think entering a batch of lineups or covering all bases would give you an advantage beyond the EV of each individual lineup. What do you think?

    I personally believe EV x Variance = $

    I agree that multiple LUs will not increase your EV for qualitative LUs, however; a solid core combined with multiple LUs with variance involved will give you an edge over the “kid fishing off the pier with one line(up).”

  • billholler

    @TeamTwerk said...

    There is no advantage gained by the multi enterer over the single bullet entry.

    That is also absolutely not true. Basic math eliminates that argument.

  • rsrunningrebels

    • 876

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    • Ranked #87

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    @TeamTwerk said...

    I don’t think entering a batch of lineups or covering all bases would give you an advantage beyond the EV of each individual lineup. What do you think?

    EV x V (Variance) = $.

    I agree with you TeamTwerk that multiple entries will not exponentially increase the EV of qualitative LUs, however; variance coupled with EV should increase one’s chances of obtaining a high score in a GPP. If a player has a good core combined with some variance that include qualitative low ownership plays, then he or she has a greater probability of winning a GPP when compared with “the kid fishing from the pier who casts one line(up)” into the tourney. To caveat, I totally agree with billholler’s recent post as well. Entering 150 LUs into a GPP does not guarantee winning. 150 bad LUs does not give you an edge over the field. 150 solid LUs……. Well, that is a different story. And winning with 150 LUs is not as easily achieved as some claim.

  • TeamTwerk

    @billholler said...

    That is also absolutely not true. Basic math eliminates that argument.

    Share the basic math that shows that a real strategic advantage is gained by the multi enterer over the single entry . Because if it is true then the contests are unfair and anything less than max entry should not be allowed/ or warned against. I doubt you can show a real advantage.

  • MHDU2424

    • 442

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    It all depends on how you construct lineups. I usually play 4-8 GPP lineups in the main sports/ main slates and have hit pretty big in 3 max, 20 max, and 150 max on different nights

    I like how it is now, where they offer different max tournaments so you can find your niche.

    I personally will fire away as you need to ultimately make lineups that score big points no matter the format. If you can rack up points you make money regardless

  • RollinNolan

    @TeamTwerk said...

    Share the basic math that shows that a real strategic advantage is gained by the multi enterer over the single entry . Because if it is true then the contests are unfair and anything less than max entry should not be allowed/ or warned against. I doubt you can show a real advantage.

    Are u trolling???

  • TeamTwerk

    @rsrunningrebels said...

    EV x V (Variance) = $.

    I agree with you TeamTwerk that multiple entries will not exponentially increase the EV of qualitative LUs, however; variance coupled with EV should increase one’s chances of obtaining a high score in a GPP. If a player has a good core combined with some variance that include qualitative low ownership plays, then he or she has a greater probability of winning a GPP when compared with “the kid fishing from the pier who casts one line(up)” into the tourney. To caveat, I totally agree with billholler’s recent post as well. Entering 150 LUs into a GPP does not guarantee winning. 150 bad LUs does not give you an edge over the field. 150 solid LUs……. Well, that is a different story. And winning with 150 LUs is not as easily achieved as some claim.

    If you’re saying variance is based on volume and therefore the multi enterer can reach the long run faster I would agree. I don’t think that would put the single enterer at any sort of competitive disadvantage. The single enterer would just have to wait longer but the variance would end up the same eventually per lineup entered.

  • Kjwhalen77

    @TeamTwerk said...

    Share the basic math that shows that a real strategic advantage is gained by the multi enterer over the single entry . Because if it is true then the contests are unfair and anything less than max entry should not be allowed/ or warned against. I doubt you can show a real advantage.

  • TeamTwerk

    I don’t feel like I’m at a competitive disadvantage if I enter 1 lineup into a 150 max contest. Maybe somebody of equal skill is 150x more likely to win but they have to spend 150x more to join. The only disadvantage is that the better players tend to put in more entries so there are more sharp entries in the contest.

  • Kjwhalen77

    @TeamTwerk said...

    I don’t feel like I’m at a competitive disadvantage if I enter 1 lineup into a 150 max contest. Maybe somebody of equal skill is 150x more likely to win but they have to spend 150x more to join. The only disadvantage is that the better players tend to put in more entries so there are more sharp entries in the contest.

    The goal of a GPP is to take it down, not merely cash. The cash lines are usually a touch lower in 150-max GPPs than SE GPPs due to the variability of the max entered lineups involving high risk/low owned/high reward stacks, but the GPP winner in the SE GPP is almost always less than the 150-max. It’s news when a single bullet takes down the milly maker or any very large GPP because of how unlikely it is occur.

    There’s not a chance in the world I’d think I’m on a level playing field in a ME-GPP with the likes of Saahilsud/Ray of Hope/Chipotle throwing 150 stacks each in it vs. my single bullet.

    They max enter it because of the advantage they get by being the minority that does max-enter it. They don’t merely win because they have 150 lineups, they win because their 150 lineups are strategically built to be boom or bust. They’re not looking to cash a bunch of the lineups, their looking for that W.

  • KindGuy

    @TeamTwerk said...

    I don’t feel like I’m at a competitive disadvantage if I enter 1 lineup into a 150 max contest. Maybe somebody of equal skill is 150x more likely to win but they have to spend 150x more to join. The only disadvantage is that the better players tend to put in more entries so there are more sharp entries in the contest.

    You have to be trolling

  • TeamTwerk

    @Kjwhalen77 said...

    The goal of a GPP is to take it down, not merely cash. The cash lines are usually a touch lower in 150-max GPPs than SE GPPs due to the variability of the max entered lineups involving high risk/low owned/high reward stacks, but the GPP winner in the SE GPP is almost always less than the 150-max. It’s news when a single bullet takes down the milly maker or any very large GPP because of how unlikely it is occur.

    There’s not a chance in the world I’d think I’m on a level playing field in a ME-GPP with the likes of Saahilsud/Ray of Hope/Chipotle throwing 150 stacks each in it vs. my single bullet.

    They max enter it because of the advantage they get by being the minority that does max-enter it. They don’t merely win because they have 150 lineups, they win because their 150 lineups are strategically built to be boom or bust. They’re not looking to cash a bunch of the lineups, their looking for that W.

    If one of those pros you mentioned made their normal 150 lineups and randomly selected only 50% of their lineups to enter do you think they would be expected to make exactly 50% less over time or do you think it would be less than 50% because some sort of advantage was lost? What about 25%? 10%?

  • Njsum1

    teamtwerk is correct if he is referring to the ROI, not expected dollars won, of 1 lineup versus 150 lineups over a large sample size, assuming the comparison is being made between people of equal skill. If I invest $1 dollar per GPP in 1 lineup and someone of equal skill invests $150 per GPP in 150 lineups we can expect to have roughly the same ROI over a large sample size, with me having a slightly higher ROI, since I’m entering my best lineup for each contest. Keep in mind my “I” or investment is 1/150th of said counterpart, so think in terms of percentage not overall dollars won, and you’ll see that @teamtwerk’s argument makes sense.

  • RollinNolan

    @Njsum1 said...

    teamtwerk is correct if he is referring to the ROI, not expected dollars won, of 1 lineup versus 150 lineups over a large sample size, assuming the comparison is being made between people of equal skill. If I invest $1 dollar per GPP in 1 lineup and someone of equal skill invests $150 per GPP in 150 lineups we can expect to have roughly the same ROI over a large sample size, with me having a slightly higher ROI, since I'm entering my best lineup for each contest. Keep in mind my "I" or investment is 1/150th of said counterpart, so think in terms of percentage not overall dollars won, and you'll see that teamtwerk’s argument makes sense.

    Are my eyes messed up? Holy font Batman

  • Njsum1

    @RollinNolan said...

    Are my eyes messed up? Holy font Batman

    Haha…I have no idea why that happened

  • RollinNolan

    If u dont think someone having 149 more lineups than u isn’t an advantage, I dont even know what to say.

  • RollinNolan

    Sometimes 299 if u catch my drift.

  • Njsum1

    @RollinNolan said...

    If u dont think someone having 149 more lineups than u isn’t an advantage, I dont even know what to say.

    You’re not understanding the post. Of course, they’re advantage is that they are 150x more likely to win, yet if you don’t understand that over time we should have similar ROI, then I don’t even no what to say, as well.

  • RollinNolan

    @Njsum1 said...

    You’re not understanding the post. Of course, they’re advantage is that they are 150x more likely to win, yet if you don’t understand that over time we should have similar ROI, then I don’t even no what to say, as well.

    Ok but most people are only doing single entry because of how less of a chance they have to win. I understand the roi part. But Wasnt the original post trying to ask if it would level the playing field?

  • rsrunningrebels

    • 876

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    • Ranked #87

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    @Kjwhalen77 said...

    There’s not a chance in the world I’d think I’m on a level playing field in a ME-GPP with the likes of Saahilsud/Ray of Hope/Chipotle throwing 150 stacks each in it vs. my single bullet.

    RayofHope is one of my favorite players to analyze. This has more to do with the qualitative characteristics of his LU construction as opposed to his level of quantitative variance. Both aspects of play are important however. I wish that a few more of the established players would comment on this thread topic. My guess would be that only a handful would be in favor of establishing a 50-75 max cap on entries. And can we blame them? That’s a rhetorical question :). The majority of them have sharpened their game to a level that most of us wish we could only achieve. Yet, that being said, a few of them have been heavily scrutinized for possible collusion. And I want to stress the following: Only a FEW have been investigated and I don’t believe that anyone has ever been banned from play due to evidence found in prior investigations. My concern lies in the fact that collusion is a frequent topic of concern here at RG and elsewhere. Whether warranted of fabricated, the concern still exists. Therefore, I would love to see a cap of 75 implemented on mid tier GPPs. Because if collusion does indeed exist; then 3 people involved would equate to 450 LUs in one GPP. And if you have three DFS studs out there working together to take down GPPs on a continuous basis then the only way others can compete with them is to advocate for capping GPP entries. Sure it is easy for someone to say that capping entries won’t improve chances to win. Sure it is easy to state that capping entries would exponentially decrease prize pools. Yet, if DK and FD chooses to target new players to increase revenue instead of depending on its current players to drive a profit then why couldn’t we give 75 max entry a try? If the successful DFS players who max enter are assured that prize pools will still fill, will they support a 75 max cap? Everything boils down to compromise, compromise between the industry, the diversity of players, and those who provide the platform to debate these type of topics.

  • RollinNolan

    Most people dont want to play 1 lineup a night. But alot are “forced” to do to the fact that they have to compete with multiple people that have 149 more chances to win than them.

  • Njsum1

    @RollinNolan said...

    Ok but most people are only doing single entry because of how less of a chance they have to win. I understand the roi part. But Wasnt the original post trying to ask if it would level the playing field?

    Maybe, yet we strayed off that a while back…haha. And I think OP was asking if smaller max entries (20 or 50 max) would level the playing field. And to that I would say it depends on many variables. I was having more fun responding to this tangential line of posts….haha

  • rsrunningrebels

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    @Njsum1 said...

    I would love to see 500 entry max brought back to the $1 to $4 dollar GPPs. This way we can get significant prize pools for less money. I know that my 2 to 10 lineups, or however many I’d play for a given slate would be less likely to win, yet they’d be way more likely to cash and my bankroll would be much more likely to grow.

    Njsum1. Via advocating for an increase in max entries, the well established, well executing 150 max players are probably voting for you to become the CEO of DK or FD. I don’t mean this disrespectfully. My point is this. These guys, to put it very simply, are GOOD. Your 2-10 lineups have less of a probability of hitting the top prize in a bigger field than in a smaller field. Yes you could cash, however; cash what amount? Yes, you could have a wonderful payday if you take down first, but you will be playing with guys that have a level of skill that is phenomenal. By increasing their max entries allowed, you are at a greater disadvantage of ever hitting that first place prize. Trust me. Do me a favor. I highly recommend that you try playing in a mid tier overlay one evening where you have a smaller field of players and a tourney that doesn’t garner as much attention of the established players as a higher $ tourney. Just try it one day and let me know what you conclude.

  • BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX

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    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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      2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    I keep reading about this false notion that DK/FD need to cap tournament entries to “keep new players.”

    Well, guess what? Entry fees and tournament sizes keep growing. The new or casual players don’t have the slightest idea that someone is out there entering 150 lineups, and they probably wouldn’t care if you told them. All they want is a shot at winning that 100k top prize, which DK/FD are more likely to have with 150 entry tournaments.

  • rsrunningrebels

    • 876

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    • Ranked #87

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    @BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX said...

    I keep reading about this false notion that DK/FD need to cap tournament entries to “keep new players.”

    Well, guess what? Entry fees and tournament sizes keep growing. The new or casual players don’t have the slightest idea that someone is out there entering 150 lineups, and they probably wouldn’t care if you told them. All they want is a shot at winning that 100k top prize, which DK/FD are more likely to have with 150 entry tournaments.

    Do you think DK and FD can increase their tournament sizes for TUES/FRI MLB and offer a 100k top prize ($5/$8/$40) if they cap single player max entry to 75? Is it ridiculous to suggest this if new players are growing and prize pulls are getting bigger?

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