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  • rsrunningrebels

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    Dear RotoGrinders Community Members,

    I have one simple question: Do you feel that 20 and/or 50 Entry Max on all main GPPs would help level the DFS playing field or not?

    I’m not interested whether or not you think FD or DK would or would not eventually implement this proposal, rather; I’m solely interested in your opinion regarding whether or not limiting entries levels the playing field in GPPs.

    Specifically pertaining to $8 and $33/$40/$55 GPPs.

    Whether you are a legendary fisherman casting 150 times in a Pro Bass tourney or a kid fishing off the pier with just one line(up) at a time; your input is greatly appreciated.

  • BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX

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    I really don’t see how 75 entries is going to change anything, just like 20 entries didn’t change anything. When you look at the top of the 20 entry max tournament you’ll see the same familiar names you saw before. If someone makes good lineups, they’re going to continue to make good lineups. 1, 20, 50, 150, it doesn’t matter.

  • KindGuy

    @BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX said...

    I really don’t see how 75 entries is going to change anything, just like 20 entries didn’t change anything. When you look at the top of the 20 entry max tournament you’ll see the same familiar names you saw before. If someone makes good lineups, they’re going to continue to make good lineups. 1, 20, 50, 150, it doesn’t matter.

    I don’t think so. I’ve actually seen less popular names on top of the 20 max low entry fee MLB GPPS on DK.

    But who’s really keeping track?

  • pickles

    I’ve got a lot of thoughts on this, but Im just going to keep it simple. Compare the winning scores to the $4 20 max on DK to whatever the big 150 entry max tourney is that night. The score it takes to win those tourneys is usually very similar.

    Actually, without doing really any digging I know for sure that the winning score last Friday night in the 20 max $4 gpp would have finished 3rd in the $8 150 max and 1st in the $44 150 max. A night or two before that the $4 20 max winner would have finished 2nd in the $8 and 2nd in the $44. On most nights this pattern is similar. That tells me when you are dealing with gpp’s with tens of thousands of entries it doesnt matter who enters 1 or 10 or 150. It still takes a similar massive score to win them. Its not you vs the guy with 150 entries. Its you vs all the entries.

  • rsrunningrebels

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    @BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX said...

    RG Tiered Ranking RG Tiered Ranking RG Tiered Ranking DraftKings FFWC Finalist 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist DraftKings FFWC Finalist I really don’t see how 75 entries is going to change anything, just like 20 entries didn’t change anything. When you look at the top of the 20 entry max tournament you’ll see the same familiar names you saw before. If someone makes good lineups, they’re going to continue to make good lineups. 1, 20, 50, 150, it doesn’t matter.

    Respectfully sir, you never answered my question. I didn’t ask you if 75 entries is gonna change anything (level the playing field). My specific question addressed to you, not he thread opener, was, and I paraphrase: Do you think a 75 single player max cap can be implemented and DK/FD can fill tournies with big 1st Place prizes? You mentioned that you believe the population of new players and size of prize pools are growing. Just wanted to know if you think implementing a 75 cap is possible. I don’t like to assume but I’m guessing you play a lot of money daily on a regular basis because you are ranked as a SuperHeavyWeight. Not sure if you are a proponent of max entering or not or how often you do it. But it appears that you are against any proposal for limiting the max entry to 75. If it doesn’t offer any disadvantage and the prize pool grows, and more and more new players are playing as you mentioned previously, then why not give it a shot? You are obviously a pretty good player. How bout this? And you don’t have to answer this is you don’t want to sir. Do you max enter on a frequent basis? If so, and if you don’t feel that it offers you a minor edge, why do you still max enter? If you never max enter, please disregard this last question but please still address the original question.

  • makeitra1n

    @BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX said...

    I keep reading about this false notion that DK/FD need to cap tournament entries to “keep new players.”

    Well, guess what? Entry fees and tournament sizes keep growing. The new or casual players don’t have the slightest idea that someone is out there entering 150 lineups, and they probably wouldn’t care if you told them. All they want is a shot at winning that 100k top prize, which DK/FD are more likely to have with 150 entry tournaments.

    I’m all for keeping the 150 max but why remove the 1 dollar version of them???

    Actually don’t answer that it’s cause sites want you to go 150*9 and not 150*1.the sites are terrified that the 1 dollar 150s are gonna decimate their whole platform which is ridiculous lmao

  • BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX

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    @rsrunningrebels said...

    Respectfully sir, you never answered my question. I didn’t ask you if 75 entries is gonna change anything (level the playing field). My specific question addressed to you, not he thread opener, was, and I paraphrase: Do you think a 75 single player max cap can be implemented and DK/FD can fill tournies with big 1st Place prizes? You mentioned that you believe the population of new players and size of prize pools are growing. Just wanted to know if you think implementing a 75 cap is possible. I don’t like to assume but I’m guessing you play a lot of money daily on a regular basis because you are ranked as a SuperHeavyWeight. Not sure if you are a proponent of max entering or not or how often you do it. But it appears that you are against any proposal for limiting the max entry to 75. If it doesn’t offer any disadvantage and the prize pool grows, and more and more new players are playing as you mentioned previously, then why not give it a shot? You are obviously a pretty good player. How bout this? And you don’t have to answer this is you don’t want to sir. Do you max enter on a frequent basis? If so, and if you don’t feel that it offers you a minor edge, why do you still max enter? If you never max enter, please disregard this last question but please still address the original question.

    They can fill tournaments with a 75 entry max, with a 100k prize pool, sure. BUT, why would they? There’s more overlay risk for DK/FD. Like a previous poster said, the cash line won’t move much, if any. So benefit will this type of tournament structure be to you?

    I’ve max entered, and still do on occasion. For me, though, it’s more about what % of my bankroll I’m playing on any given slate and what tournaments I want to target. The amount of entries a player can have in any given tournament doesn’t factor into my decision.

  • luckypicks72

    TeamTwerk…If there is no advantage to the multi entries, than please explain to me why the sharks feel the need to enter 100s of lineups. It’s because it is like playing the lotto. The more different combinations of numbers you play the better your odds of winning. Doesn’t mean you will win, but does increase the odds in your favor.

  • luckypicks72

    I don’t really think the problem of a fair playing field lies with the number of entries a player enters but rather with the type of lineups that are being entered. If a player is entering 50 different lineups then they have a chance that a couple of them will finish towards the top. The problem comes in when the sharks enter 50 lineups that are exactly the same. If you have a contest that is designed to pay out to 500 place we’ll say, and 10 sharks come along and each enter 50 lineups that are exactly the same or close to each other, then suddenly the contest that was meant to payout to 500 winners only actually pays out to 10 winners. I think the contests should remain having the large max entries, but have a limit as to how many of the exact same lineups a single player can enter, or a rule that says all entries must be different when entering multi-entries. (This would be for gpps, since it is pretty much the norm to enter like lineups in cash games)

  • rsrunningrebels

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    @BRORANNOSAURUS_FLEX said...

    They can fill tournaments with a 75 entry max, with a 100k prize pool, sure. BUT, why would they? There’s more overlay risk for DK/FD. Like a previous poster said, the cash line won’t move much, if any. So benefit will this type of tournament structure be to you?

    I’ve max entered, and still do on occasion. For me, though, it’s more about what % of my bankroll I’m playing on any given slate and what tournaments I want to target. The amount of entries a player can have in any given tournament doesn’t factor into my decision.

    I can’t speak for FD, however; I can say that I am involved in a very positive, ongoing, and open dialog communication with DK top brass about the possibility of capping max entries in mid tier GPPs. Specifically the $33/$40/$55 ones. They are open to ideas as long as I can prove to them that revenue will NOT be affected by the cap limitation. I am in the process of finalizing a presentation for them that demonstrates how targeting the growing population of new players coupled with gradually and very cautiously increasing the number of participants allowed in established player mid tier GPPs can actually increase revenue on a quarterly basis. I actually just received an inquiry from DK yesterday asking for proposed feedback. So “Why would they consider my proposal?” If they can increase revenue and simultaneously appeal to a fan base that is gradually becoming more and more troubled about the claims of collusion and advantageous strategies utilized by the established elite, then why not be open to a solution that placates a new emerging class of players? The elite class of Heavyweights will adjust to the cap and continue to play and find ways to manipulate whom they consider to be the “uneducated masses.” of DFS players. However, they will no longer drive the revenue of the DFS institutions and a new class of player will emerge as the primary beneficiary of a more balanced and level playing field. Why would a cap of 75 benefit this type of player? Take this example into consideration. Let’s say I put in 75 qualitative LUs and you do the same. Let’s say that our level of play, experience, knowledge, and potential are considered as equal. Now one of us has the ability to enter 75 more LUs and the other one doesn’t. Who’s probability of winning increases between the two of us? I don’t want to join the 150 club elite. Why? #1: I believe it is too risky to play like that and I don’t want to put my bankroll in jeopardy. #2: I don’t feel like winning with 150 LUs is pure, it’s a dirty form of winning IMO driven by greed. #3: I’m a Rebel, always will be. I stand up for the ordinary Joe. 6 combat deployments in places in Afghanistan and Iraq that makes what you see going on in Mosul right now look like a vacation compared to Fallujah 2003, Ramadi 2005-2006, Afghanistan 2010, 2011, 2012. Yemen Border 2013-2015. I stand up for the average guy and I enjoy playing DFS cause it helps me deal with stress. I’m not trying to be melodramatic. I’m being real. I can’t stand by and let the average guys get screwed over without even knowing exactly how bad they are being manipulated by an elite group of players. It’s time for them to win. And win they will! This thread is for my friends in the FishBowl and all the DFS players nationwide who will have their place in the winner’s circle one day soon. Thank you for your feedback and your professional response Bronto and for contributing to the dialog. At least your not hiding on the sidelines and you had the cajones to debate the topic at hand.

  • superstars92

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    @luckypicks72 said...

    TeamTwerk…If there is no advantage to the multi entries, than please explain to me why the sharks feel the need to enter 100s of lineups. It’s because it is like playing the lotto. The more different combinations of numbers you play the better your odds of winning. Doesn’t mean you will win, but does increase the odds in your favor.

    Just play devil’s advocate here (not hating or anything):

    I can easily argue that the more entries you enter, the more money you can lose too.

    Since you want to use the lottery analogy, I can tell you the guy who guys 100 lottery tickets will on average lose more money than the guy buying 1 lottery ticket.

  • ElGuapo

    .

  • superstars92

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    ^I have a question for you guys. Purely hypothetical and I am just curious about the answer.

    Let’s say I max enter 150 times, but I enter the EXACT same lineup 150 times (as a train). Would you guys have an issue with that? Or is it just entering 150 different lineups?

    Btw, I am all in favor of the limitation of entries. The 27/33/55 contest is where it would be super important IMO. The 300/333 already has limitations, and I would like to see that in the 27/33/55, as long as the total size of the contest doesn’t also decrease (that’s where it gets tricky). I manually make all my lineups by hand (so none of this exporting and optimizer stuff), so it actually takes me a long time, and I usually do about 40 a week with golf, like 10-15 a day for MLB, and 20 a day for NBA (sometimes more with overlay), so I would love to have like a 40 max entry limit.

    I think one of the key points that hasn’t been talked about is that because I (and most people) don’t have an optimizer/auto-exporter, if there is a last minute scratch to a player (which happens in the NBA), I am completely screwed compared to a pro that has 150 lineups and an auto-exporter/lineup generator because I cannot manually make that many adjustments that quickly compared to a pro with that capability. I remember that happened to me with Porzingis was scratched on NYE last year, and when Lowry was scratched last minute vs the Nets, among other examples. If I could just make 150 lineups fast, I would have just recreated everything with CoJo for example pretty easily, but I couldn’t.

    Anyways, I was just wondering if you guys had any opinion on my hypothetical scenario.

  • TeamTwerk

    @luckypicks72 said...

    TeamTwerk…If there is no advantage to the multi entries, than please explain to me why the sharks feel the need to enter 100s of lineups. It’s because it is like playing the lotto. The more different combinations of numbers you play the better your odds of winning. Doesn’t mean you will win, but does increase the odds in your favor.

    I think the sharks could profit whether they enter 1 lineup, 10 lineups, 20, 50, 100, 150. I’m assuming they think they can maximize profits with 150 or like bronosaurus said some slates he might go lower for various reasons.

    As far as the lottery goes if there was a 100% payout lottery what’s the difference if you buy 1000 tickets or 1? It’s the same thing. Same expected value. You’re making it more likely to win by buying the 1000 tickets but it’s not a better bet than the 1 ticket.

  • ElGuapo

    @TeamTwerk said...

    I think the sharks could profit whether they enter 1 lineup, 10 lineups, 20, 50, 100, 150. I’m assuming they think they can maximize profits with 150 or like bronosaurus said some slates he might go lower for various reasons.

    As far as the lottery goes if there was a 100% payout lottery what’s the difference if you buy 1000 tickets or 1? It’s the same thing. Same expected value. You’re making it more likely to win by buying the 1000 tickets but it’s not a better bet than the 1 ticket.

    N/a

  • superstars92

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    @TeamTwerk said...

    I don’t feel like I’m at a competitive disadvantage if I enter 1 lineup into a 150 max contest. Maybe somebody of equal skill is 150x more likely to win but they have to spend 150x more to join. The only disadvantage is that the better players tend to put in more entries so there are more sharp entries in the contest.

    I get what you are trying to say. I think you guys have different arguments in this thread. Let me try to explain TeamTwerk’s argument for people on here. Again, I am actually for limiting max entries, but I want to explain his argument so that you guys just don’t keep bashing him.

    Basically, it’s definitely true that if you enter say 10 lineups instead of 1, you have a better chance to WIN a GPP. Even if somebody RANDOMLY enters 10 lineups instead of 1, where the 1 is well-thought and researched, the guy that enters 10 has a better chance to win a GPP (unless that 1 has a massive EV advantage, but that’s highly unlikely). If it’s true for 10, clearly it’s even more so for 150.

    EXAMPLE:
    However, with this being said, the guy who enters 10 doesn’t necessarily have a higher ROI (and certainly won’t if the 10 are random). This is what he is trying to argue. I think the best example for your argument is there are 2 players: A and B. A enters 1 lineup and B enters 150. Each entry costs $1, and there is no rake for simplicity. Let’s assume both A and B are of equal talent. Only the winning lineup gets paid out, and it pays $151 to the winner. B has a 150/151 chance to win the $151, but A only has a 1/151 chance. However, B also invested $150 and A only invested $1. Although B will win with 150/151 chance, he only makes $1 ($151 – $150) off of the 150/151 chance. A meanwhile makes $150 ($151 – $1) off of the 1/151 chance.

    $1*150/151 = $150*1/151 = 150/151, so no advantage here to A or B.

    Since in the long run, only ROI matters, I get exactly what argument you are making. However, you must realize that most people here play GPPs to outright win, so I don’t think what you are saying makes sense in that context. B has the way higher chance to outright win the tourney and get the large prize, but he doesn’t have a long term ROI advantage. Yes, I simplified it to only A and B, but the idea is the same with more players and different payouts.

    TeamTwerk – correct me if I am wrong as I am trying to explain your argument a little better.

    Anyways, I don’t mind if they limit the entries to like even 1, but the problem is the prize pools might be smaller because of it, and that could hurt. Back to what the OP said, limiting to 75 I think is feasible. It’ll be hard to analyze how much the prize pool is hurt though, but I think you can still see a similar prize pool and a 75 entry limit.

  • rsrunningrebels

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    @superstars92 said...

    ^I have a question for you guys. Purely hypothetical and I am just curious about the answer.

    Let’s say I max enter 150 times, but I enter the EXACT same lineup 150 times (as a train). Would you guys have an issue with that? Or is it just entering 150 different lineups?

    Purely hypothetical? I think that would be insane. I think it is the variance that gives the 150 max entry player the edge.

    Regarding the 27/33/55 GPPs: Like you state, there is a cap on the 333s. 17 right? I think that a 75 cap on the aforementioned three would not decrease the total size of the contest by more than 500 players at first. Eventually, the experienced players would adapt and the contest sizes to both purse and participants may even grow in size.

    Regarding auto Lu exporters: I recommend you educate yourself on how to optimize this because I personally believe it is pivotal to time management. Furthermore, I do not like the fact that if you choose to use Global Swap on DK, you are limited to importing a player that has equal to less salary for the player you are swapping. When I played on FD before they pulled out of Texas, I think I remember that you could swap out anybody if you didn’t exceed salary cap of course. Recreating LUs in an expedient fashion is critical if last minute injuries or unexpected scratches occur.

    Just to reiterate on the hypothetical scenario of 150 same LUs: I have no problem with that. Have you ever seen that occur?

  • superstars92

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    @rsrunningrebels said...

    Purely hypothetical? I think that would be insane. I think it is the variance that gives the 150 max entry player the edge.

    Not insane at all. Shawnzhan is known for doing this, and he’s a top pro. So that’s why I was asking. Like his belief must be “this lineup has so much EV, I don’t care about limiting the variance, I want to get the most EV as I can into this tourney”.

    I think if you google “Shawnzhan” “train”, you might find an old Rotogrinders post about this.

    I just wanted to make sure to ask because I think the 150 entry might be ok with some people as long as it’s the same lineup, but it’s not ok if it’s 150 different lineups. Just wanted to clarify, as I am trying to soak in as much info as possible.

    ^Yea I thought about learning those exporting/optimizer stuff, but I still like creating everything by hand because it gives me better visualization. I 100% agree that it’s not the best for time management and I should learn at least the basics.

  • anilprao88

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    @rsrunningrebels said...

    Like you state, there is a cap on the 333s. 17 right?

    Completely irrelevant. They have to set those caps lower because the total number of entries are lower and they can’t let any user have more than 3% of entries in any non-single entry contest. From what I’ve seen, though I don’t play those type of contests much, they usually set the cap on those contests as high as they possibly can.

  • makeitra1n

    Ask Cleveland God on twitter,goes by geazy on fd,about the 150 lineup train lol

  • TeamTwerk

    Runningrebels, thank you for your service to your country and also for trying to make the contests better on DK. I personally dont see much of a difference between 75 and 150 entries but it would make it slightly more likely I would play with the 75 limit provided they can keep the guarantees high.

  • anilprao88

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    @superstars92 said...

    Not insane at all. Shawnzhan is known for doing this, and he’s a top pro. So that’s why I was asking. Like his belief must be “this lineup has so much EV, I don’t care about limiting the variance, I want to get the most EV as I can into this tourney”.

    It is pretty insane to run a 150 lineup train in a GPP. The lineup would have to have an astronomical expected ROI for the 150th entry to be positive EV and I don’t think any top player would suggest that entering a 150 lineup train in a GPP would maximize EV.

  • superstars92

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    @anilprao88 said...

    It is pretty insane to run a 150 lineup train in a GPP. The lineup would have to have an astronomical expected ROI for the 150th entry to be positive EV and I don’t think any top player would suggest that entering a 150 lineup train in a GPP would maximize EV.

    Wait, I’m confused. The 150th entry has the same EV as the 1st in this case? They are all the same lineup, so how do they have different EVs? Anyways, yea I’m not saying I would do it. I was mostly asking the reason why people don’t like the 150 lineups. I think it has to do with the ability to differentiate because it seems like people might be ok with 150 of the same lineup.

    Anyways, maybe shawnzhan can respond on why he did this for the NBA all season. He seemed to have made good money doing it too. When it hits, it makes a ton.

  • TeamTwerk

    @superstars92 said...

    I get what you are trying to say. I think you guys have different arguments in this thread. Let me try to explain TeamTwerk’s argument for people on here. Again, I am actually for limiting max entries, but I want to explain his argument so that you guys just don’t keep bashing him.

    Basically, it’s definitely true that if you enter say 10 lineups instead of 1, you have a better chance to WIN a GPP. Even if somebody RANDOMLY enters 10 lineups instead of 1, where the 1 is well-thought and researched, the guy that enters 10 has a better chance to win a GPP (unless that 1 has a massive EV advantage, but that’s highly unlikely). If it’s true for 10, clearly it’s even more so for 150.

    EXAMPLE:
    However, with this being said, the guy who enters 10 doesn’t necessarily have a higher ROI (and certainly won’t if the 10 are random). This is what he is trying to argue. I think the best example for your argument is there are 2 players: A and B. A enters 1 lineup and B enters 150. Each entry costs $1, and there is no rake for simplicity. Let’s assume both A and B are of equal talent. Only the winning lineup gets paid out, and it pays $151 to the winner. B has a 150/151 chance to win the $151, but A only has a 1/151 chance. However, B also invested $150 and A only invested $1. Although B will win with 150/151 chance, he only makes $1 ($151 – $150) off of the 150/151 chance. A meanwhile makes $150 ($151 – $1) off of the 1/151 chance.

    $1*150/151 = $150*1/151 = 150/151, so no advantage here to A or B.

    Since in the long run, only ROI matters, I get exactly what argument you are making. However, you must realize that most people here play GPPs to outright win, so I don’t think what you are saying makes sense in that context. B has the way higher chance to outright win the tourney and get the large prize, but he doesn’t have a long term ROI advantage. Yes, I simplified it to only A and B, but the idea is the same with more players and different payouts.

    TeamTwerk – correct me if I am wrong as I am trying to explain your argument a little better.

    Anyways, I don’t mind if they limit the entries to like even 1, but the problem is the prize pools might be smaller because of it, and that could hurt. Back to what the OP said, limiting to 75 I think is feasible. It’ll be hard to analyze how much the prize pool is hurt though, but I think you can still see a similar prize pool and a 75 entry limit.

  • rsrunningrebels

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    @anilprao88 said...

    Completely irrelevant. They have to set those caps lower because the total number of entries are lower and they can’t let any user have more than 3% of entries in any non-single entry contest. From what I’ve seen, though I don’t play those type of contests much, they usually set the cap on those contests as high as they possibly can

    I think the 17 cap is extremely high, not low. I have entered those in the past with an average of 2 lineups and feel the 17 max entry gives the experienced player who can afford to play that many LUs and manage his bankroll efficiently an automatic edge. Actually, there was one of those contests I played in that I think had a higher cap. I’d have to go back and research. I remember playing in one where two different players invested over $30,000 each. May have been a $888 or a $1500 contest. Can’t remember. I rarely play in the high stakes tourneys but fortunately have been successful when I have. I contribute this to pure luck.

    Anilprao88: You are a well respected player in the community. Not sure if you max enter or not but you seem to frequent the top tier very often. Here is my question: Would limiting mid tier 27/33/44/55 GPPs hinder you in any way? Follow up question: Would it hinder any of your peers?

  • superstars92

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    Oh one more thing, sorry if this is off topic, but @rsrunningrebels, just wanted to say thank you for your service to the country. Just read that in your really long post.

    Anyways, I guess I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but I am totally ok if they limit the entry to like 30-40. The only problem like I said earlier is how will the prize pools be affected.

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