INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • lk2000

    Supreme Court strikes down federal law banning most states from allowing sports betting which appears to clear way for states to legalize sports betting if they wish to do so. What are everyone’s initial thoughts? Seems to be huge news for the leagues and sports fans and will probably put additional pressure on long term viability of current dfs business model.

  • birn

    @TeamTwerk said...

    Not sure why nobody has mentioned that probably the bottom 50% or so of DFS players would lose less by wagering the same amount on sports betting rather than on DFS. Surely it would be a good thing for these players.

    BINGO!

  • KindGuy

    Great tweets on the implications of all of this: https://twitter.com/BennyR11?lang=en

  • mambaland

    will all the people now make fun of people who buy betting info vs DFS info..IE lineups

  • ASalvaro

    sports betting is SO much easier and more profitable than DFS…this is great news

  • BagelBaron

    Two questions for the group:

    1) Do you think that since legal sports betting typically has a lower rake, that this will eventually pressure the sites to lower rake for DFS in order to have it be a competitive large scale product?

    2) Should it bother regulators that teams, team owners and sports leagues have significant financial interests in Draftkings and Fanduel? For example, should DK be able to make book on a Patriots game when Robert Kraft owns a stake in DK? Doesn’t this create the very integrity problems the leagues argued so hard for when opposing widespread legalized gambling? If MLB and MLB owners are permitted to have financial interests in sportsbooks, with the potential for an unbalanced book involving a game they are providing, is it hypocritical for MLB to continue to ban Pete Rose?

  • bozzburg

    At least in sports betting you will have more of a 50/50 chance of winning.

    Last numbers I read, 89% or something near there are losers on DFS platforms. Research, Smesearch till you’re eyes bleed. DFS is a total crapshoot.

  • ASalvaro

    @bozzburg said...

    At least in sports betting you will have more of a 50/50 chance of winning.

    Last numbers I read, 89% or something near there are losers on DFS platforms. Research, Smesearch till you’re eyes bleed. DFS is a total crapshoot.

    Exactly..I’ve been betting offshore for almost 20 years now and it’s so much easier to win than with DFS..that being said I am still addicted to DFS lol

  • leib0039

    To me the biggest difference is that betting is you vs the book, you make the right pick you win. You can play a fantasy lineup and have it go off in a H2H, and ohh shoot you played papagates/chipotle, condia, awesomo etc man you lose because they had the nuts. I love DFS and wont quit playing but it is nice knowing that it does not matter what any pro or any random opponent does. Which is why I agree this will hurt cash games, why would I get a $5 h2h game scooped by a DFS pro when I could just bet $1 on 5 games and be just as invested.

  • TPSC

    @jtkucheck said...

    I don’t really see how the two are related, other than the customer is using both of their own free will.

    Predatory? How can something be predatory if the customer is choosing to use it?

    I appreciate this post so much because it reminds me that some people are just really stupid. And also super willing to get involved in discussions on things they are stupid about.

  • TPSC

    @leib0039 said...

    To me the biggest difference is that betting is you vs the book, you make the right pick you win. You can play a fantasy lineup and have it go off in a H2H, and ohh shoot you played papagates/chipotle, condia, awesomo etc man you lose because they had the nuts. I love DFS and wont quit playing but it is nice knowing that it does not matter what any pro or any random opponent does. Which is why I agree this will hurt cash games, why would I get a $5 h2h game scooped by a DFS pro when I could just bet $1 on 5 games and be just as invested.

    This is correct. It is much easier to win a straight/point spread bet than to win a cash game against a very good DFS player. For the same return.

  • TPSC

    If you don’t think much of DFS’s initial popularity was because you could withdraw without problem using Paypal versus having to jump through 1000000 hoops to deposit money and withdraw money with offshore sportsbooks, then you are completely oblivious to what drove early DFS growth.

    It became almost fucking impossible to move money into offshore books for a while there. Obnoxious prepaid credit cards needed. With $500 limits, and fees. Crazy transaction fees if your own card did work (think 10%). Western Union trips to send significant cash. Annoying waiting periods. Getting blacklisted by WU because you sent to 10 names in Nicaragua. Having to go through Moneygram. Having to wait 30 days to get the money out. Being limited to check options, once per month, or with a $50 fee and a 2 week waiting time. Then having your 5Dimes check bounce at your local credit union, and then they call you to ask what sketchiness you are up to depositing foreign checks for $3k that bounce.

    Bitcoin has helped this some, but for a while it was very hard to buy Bitcoin. And many people don’t like to deal with it. It’s still a major pain in the ass to get money out of offshore sports books, and the WORST thing for an addicted gambler is to feel like he can’t get his money. If he can’t get it, then the money isn’t real in his mind. The addicted gambler is highly likely to play in the online casino with that money because he wasn’t allowed to request his withdrawal when he wanted. The offshore books are fucking MASTERS at manipulating people into playing more, even when they hit a big win. That’s the scam.

    Of course this is good for bettors. It takes away those hurdles. It is much better for addicted people, too. They were still gambling, often on credit with bookies, and getting over their heads. Or with offshores that turn the money into something digital and less than real to the addicted gambler. It’s still true you can lose control holding a paper ticket in a New Jersey sportsbook, but it’s much, much harder to count out 10 $100 bills and hand them to a clerk than it is to click “Bet $1,000” on a screen after a site basically tells you to get bent when you request YOUR own money.

    And if you don’t think a large percentage of people turned to DFS because they knew they could get their sports gambling money in and out without hassle, then you have no idea what drove and drives the average DFS player. Sure, some super dedicated people (like those on this niche site) are obsessed with the dynamics of DFS play (which is interesting in its own ways). But many were using this because sports betting sites because a major pain in the ass. And most people are about to have that real sports betting opened back up.

    There’s a reason DK and FD are hopping into sports betting. They KNOW they have been a quasi-legal and more importantly SUPER CONVENIENT surrogate for what people wanted to do anyway.

  • MrFantasy

    @ASalvaro said...

    sports betting is SO much easier and more profitable than DFS…this is great news

    Best you can hope for is -115 lines though. Which means offshore will still be the best option for most.

  • MrFantasy

    @TPSC said...

    Bitcoin has helped this some, but for a while it was very hard to buy Bitcoin. And many people don’t like to deal with it. It’s still a major pain in the ass to get money out of offshore sports books

    Bitcoin has SOLVED the issue they had. It’s very simple to figure out and use bitcoin and no reason anyone can’t move $10k plus around in minutes. Bitcoin books pay in an hour or less, A+ rated books pay within hours/same day and the longest I’ve had to wait for any bitcoin payout is 4 days.

  • firemedicpat

    DFS is going to die a slow and painful death now. Colluders better get their money while they still can.

  • TPSC

    Mr Fantasy:

    You vastly overestimate how much the average person trusts Bitcoin. And you act like waiting four days for one to get his or her money is not an impediment to sports betting on the Internet.

    IE you are not properly understanding the difference between yourself (not the average person in re: sports betting, almost by definition because you are here, on this site, having this discussion with me) and the average person.

  • KindGuy

    @TPSC said...

    If you don’t think much of DFS’s initial popularity was because you could withdraw without problem using Paypal versus having to jump through 1000000 hoops to deposit money and withdraw money with offshore sportsbooks, then you are completely oblivious to what drove early DFS growth.

    It became almost fucking impossible to move money into offshore books for a while there. Obnoxious prepaid credit cards needed. With $500 limits, and fees. Crazy transaction fees if your own card did work (think 10%). Western Union trips to send significant cash. Annoying waiting periods. Getting blacklisted by WU because you sent to 10 names in Nicaragua. Having to go through Moneygram. Having to wait 30 days to get the money out. Being limited to check options, once per month, or with a $50 fee and a 2 week waiting time. Then having your 5Dimes check bounce at your local credit union, and then they call you to ask what sketchiness you are up to depositing foreign checks for $3k that bounce.

    Bitcoin has helped this some, but for a while it was very hard to buy Bitcoin. And many people don’t like to deal with it. It’s still a major pain in the ass to get money out of offshore sports books, and the WORST thing for an addicted gambler is to feel like he can’t get his money. If he can’t get it, then the money isn’t real in his mind. The addicted gambler is highly likely to play in the online casino with that money because he wasn’t allowed to request his withdrawal when he wanted. The offshore books are fucking MASTERS at manipulating people into playing more, even when they hit a big win. That’s the scam.

    Of course this is good for bettors. It takes away those hurdles. It is much better for addicted people, too. They were still gambling, often on credit with bookies, and getting over their heads. Or with offshores that turn the money into something digital and less than real to the addicted gambler. It’s still true you can lose control holding a paper ticket in a New Jersey sportsbook, but it’s much, much harder to count out 10 $100 bills and hand them to a clerk than it is to click “Bet $1,000” on a screen after a site basically tells you to get bent when you request YOUR own money.

    And if you don’t think a large percentage of people turned to DFS because they knew they could get their sports gambling money in and out without hassle, then you have no idea what drove and drives the average DFS player. Sure, some super dedicated people (like those on this niche site) are obsessed with the dynamics of DFS play (which is interesting in its own ways). But many were using this because sports betting sites because a major pain in the ass. And most people are about to have that real sports betting opened back up.

    There’s a reason DK and FD are hopping into sports betting. They KNOW they have been a quasi-legal and more importantly SUPER CONVENIENT surrogate for what people wanted to do anyway.

    This is spot on and I hope everyone gets a chance to read this. For me personally, I enjoy DFS but not having paypal (and of course not being technically legal) was a huge deterrent for me in terms of stepping into the sports betting world.

  • MARJAC

    • 2015 FanDuel CFB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @iwrestle said...

    Let’s hope they can bring back College Football DFS now!!!!

    THIS! PLEASE!

  • madmanjayWV

    @BagelBaron said...

    Two questions for the group:

    1) Do you think that since legal sports betting typically has a lower rake, that this will eventually pressure the sites to lower rake for DFS in order to have it be a competitive large scale product?

    2) Should it bother regulators that teams, team owners and sports leagues have significant financial interests in Draftkings and Fanduel? For example, should DK be able to make book on a Patriots game when Robert Kraft owns a stake in DK? Doesn’t this create the very integrity problems the leagues argued so hard for when opposing widespread legalized gambling? If MLB and MLB owners are permitted to have financial interests in sportsbooks, with the potential for an unbalanced book involving a game they are providing, is it hypocritical for MLB to continue to ban Pete Rose?

    #1 – DFS RA(P)KE – will continue unabated (u may get a slight reprieve, but I wouldn’t hold my breath)..

    #2 — NO HARM NO FOUL; #GOODoleBOYSclub #CU@daTOP

    P.S. (#2) — I agree on ROSE, he “NEVER BET AGAINST THE REDS” (not always for them, LOL, he knew his pitchers) — but he signed
    his own death warrant with BART GIAMATTI — https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/local/wp/2014/04/01/bart-giamattis-son-others-weigh-in-on-pete-rose-suspension-after-25-years/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.def608afc99c

    My only other thought(s) on this whole thing is like OK………………….

    DK is offering sports betting, correct? Is W.Va. getting tax revenue or money from DK?

    I googled it today — I never “SPORTS BET” — haven’t since I was a kid when my dad and uncle worked at plants and brought home NCAA/NFL parlays —- me and my little brother would get to pick like (try to get) like 3 and 4- teamers….

    But it was and still is (EVEN B4 TODAY’s Supreme Court ruling) — 100% “LEGAL” for me in W.VA. MOUNTAIN STATE — to “BETSPORTS WAGER via the INTERNET – i just don’t do it, I don’t have time to do it and I prefer, truly, the GRIND OF #DFSayds and to be HONEST if I did have the time I’d bet GREYHOUNDS 24/7 across the globe!

    I’m only a madman, so wtf do I know…

  • XxHeisenbergxX

    I am excited for sports betting to come to RI , I am a seasonal DFS player mainly football but man its going to be nice to go back to betting one or two games a week and just grinding out some extra cash in the same token killing a sunday afternoon and monday.

    DFS will be an after thought for me anyways. I have a casino 10 mins from my house but I am hoping TVG jumps in on the sports betting action.

  • thor33

    @TPSC said...

    If you don’t think much of DFS’s initial popularity was because you could withdraw without problem using Paypal versus having to jump through 1000000 hoops to deposit money and withdraw money with offshore sportsbooks, then you are completely oblivious to what drove early DFS growth.

    It became almost fucking impossible to move money into offshore books for a while there. Obnoxious prepaid credit cards needed. With $500 limits, and fees. Crazy transaction fees if your own card did work (think 10%). Western Union trips to send significant cash. Annoying waiting periods. Getting blacklisted by WU because you sent to 10 names in Nicaragua. Having to go through Moneygram. Having to wait 30 days to get the money out. Being limited to check options, once per month, or with a $50 fee and a 2 week waiting time. Then having your 5Dimes check bounce at your local credit union, and then they call you to ask what sketchiness you are up to depositing foreign checks for $3k that bounce.

    Bitcoin has helped this some, but for a while it was very hard to buy Bitcoin. And many people don’t like to deal with it. It’s still a major pain in the ass to get money out of offshore sports books, and the WORST thing for an addicted gambler is to feel like he can’t get his money. If he can’t get it, then the money isn’t real in his mind. The addicted gambler is highly likely to play in the online casino with that money because he wasn’t allowed to request his withdrawal when he wanted. The offshore books are fucking MASTERS at manipulating people into playing more, even when they hit a big win. That’s the scam.

    Of course this is good for bettors. It takes away those hurdles. It is much better for addicted people, too. They were still gambling, often on credit with bookies, and getting over their heads. Or with offshores that turn the money into something digital and less than real to the addicted gambler. It’s still true you can lose control holding a paper ticket in a New Jersey sportsbook, but it’s much, much harder to count out 10 $100 bills and hand them to a clerk than it is to click “Bet $1,000” on a screen after a site basically tells you to get bent when you request YOUR own money.

    And if you don’t think a large percentage of people turned to DFS because they knew they could get their sports gambling money in and out without hassle, then you have no idea what drove and drives the average DFS player. Sure, some super dedicated people (like those on this niche site) are obsessed with the dynamics of DFS play (which is interesting in its own ways). But many were using this because sports betting sites because a major pain in the ass. And most people are about to have that real sports betting opened back up.

    There’s a reason DK and FD are hopping into sports betting. They KNOW they have been a quasi-legal and more importantly SUPER CONVENIENT surrogate for what people wanted to do anyway.

    Yup this guy gets it. It is a huge inconvenience betting online depositing and withdrawing. As long as DK and or Fanduel don’t get too greedy ( I won’t hold my breath ) and jack up the juice ( for example -110 to make a hundred to -125 to make a hundred ) they will profit. this time DK and Fanduel will have competition from states that offer sports betting. Pretty sure they will screw it up .

  • Boneys2000

    That is me!Time to start saving money and be done with DFS.It will be interesting to see what DraftKings does.

  • querb

    Bums and homeless people play 1-2 dollar scratch off tickets, i for one am happy that I get to compete against them in DFS now

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    Apologize if this came up already as I didn’t read every post…but thinking of how things will change now that it’s “legal”.
    And the biggest thing I could think of was payment processing. Obviously withdrawals will be easier and safer, but how will deposits work?
    Most if not all offshore sites offer work arounds to charge credit cards, but credit cards have not and do not allow themselves to be used as stakes in actual gambling. The biggest change may be that people can only gamble money they actually have, and if that’s the case maybe this won’t be as disastrous as I initially thought.

    Also, spoiler alert – (sorry to be the bearer of bad news) there are always exceptions, but if you’re a losing DFS player, especially in the bottom half, you’re not going to win money sports betting. The fact so many here seem to not realize this kind of proves my initial point of why this can be so dangerous.

  • rannas23

    I wonder what the players with high bankrolls and the usual max entry players will do once they have other options now. Will they put alot of their action and bankroll on the betting side of the industry now. If the dfs big contests don’t fill, then the dfs side could seriously dissolve…or the contests and winnings will be much smaller. How will Rotogrinders adapt to the new change…will there be a new section for this new type of industry. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

  • emnj69

    I have been a very profitable DFS player and my exposure going forward will be very limited. I went the DFS route because of legality. I had a bad experience with an offshore site and no way I am trusting/using a bookie either. This new ruling is something I have waited for many years to happen. The avg fan will quickly see going the sports betting route is much more profitable for them. Their payout odds are much greater and there are no sharks to deal with that mass enter gps giving them a large advantage over the field. DK and FD should lower their rake and offer incentives for sports bet folks to use their sites for betting as well. Those that think this ruling is not a threat to daily fantasy are out of their mind.

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