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  • COMMISH

    I’m sick of people saying that DFS is gambling. All you need to do is read the reader comments to any news story on Yahoo about DK and FD to get a feel of what I am talking about. What they are really saying is that it is all based on chance and that there is no skill involved. This nonsense has to be put to rest.

    I think a leader in the DFS world, someone with power and reach, needs to challenge a prominent figure (a member of Congress, perhaps) in the “DFS is gambling” camp to a season long DFS duel. The loser would have to volunteer his (her) TIME (not money) to the favorite charity of the winner. I don’t want the loser to be demeaned or humiliated.

    In the challenge, the DFS leader would pick his lineups as he always would. The gambling leader would be forced to pick his lineups by random measures. Of course, this would mean these lineups just might be filled with randomly drafted bench warmers. Wouldn’t that be tough LUCK! On occasion, these random lineups would have to be modified to prevent a salary cap violation. However, often times, these random lineups are going to come in way under budget.

    Using the list of players on Yahoo for the upcoming NFL games, I built a random lineup with a random-number generator. I first randomly determined the draft order by position, and , then I randomly picked the players within the position. I eliminated questionable and out players. Here is the lineup that was generated. A predicted, this team was built with only $148 out of a $200 budget. I suspect anyone with even a modest level of SKILL could beat this lineup.

    QB Jay Cutler
    RB Mark Ingram
    RB Brandon Bolden
    WR JARON Brown
    WR Keenan Allen
    WR Joshua Bellamy
    TE Antonio Fasano
    FLEX Richard Rodgers
    DEF NY Giants

  • JEFFRAMBO

    I think the whole argument on DFS being gambling or not is an argument spun from intrinsic views.

    If the land of the law reads in laymen terms to be:
    “Daily Fantasy Sports is legal based on its reliance of one’s skill to compete against other skilled competitors within a pre-determined field size where selections are made by each participant consisting of individual player’s over multiple events from a minimum of three teams. No aspects of gambling should interfere with or become involved in the outcome of a contest.”

    Then everyone of course is going to argue that DFS is not gambling as a means to protect their self-interests. But if you remove that last line from the wording of the make-believe dummied down version of the law I just concocted … then no one would have reason to argue that DFS is not gambling and probably would not argue the matter.

    DFS/Gambling/Legalese aside… if I am sick and I ask you to hand me a kleenex to blow my nose, but the only thing near you is a box of puffs tissue- would you hand me a tissue or would you say “Sorry, I don’t have any kleenex” completely being oblivious to the fact that kleenex has been synonymous with tissue since the beginning of its existence?

    The same could be said for associated gambling with DFS. It’s a dirty word given the makeup of the laws that allow DFS to be… but anytime you cast an expected value or implied odds on the outcome of an event that you have a vested interest in- you’re gambling.

  • tvegas40

    Let’s say Commish, Me, Smizzle, and DB730 go to the horse races today. For argument sakes let’s say only 2 horses are running. Commish, Me, and Smiz bet $10 on the #1 horse because he’s a gray. DB730 bets $10 on the #2 horse because he used the figures from the racing form (past results) and he’s pretty knowledgeable about horse racing. Some people believe wrongly that you are playing against the “house” in horse racing but every bet that you can make you are playing against other bettors. In this instance the total pool would be $40- the track takes out its percentage (rake) we will use 10% for an example. So $36 is left in the pot – if the 1 horse wins us 3 bettors get $12 if the #2 horse wins DB730 gets it all $36. This is gambling. It always has been always will and the parallels to DFS are pretty major. In both instances we all have access to information, we all picked the way/style to play, we are all playing against each other and someone is taking a rake.

  • depalma13

    DFS is gambling. I don’t know why anyone even tries to say it isn’t.

    Of course that is not the issue. The issue is no government should ever be able to stop any individual from spending money any way they chose as long as that spent money does not violate another individual’s Constitutional rights.

    Freedom has been corrupted by an electorate dumbed down by a government educational system designed to keep two parties in power at the expense of the U.S. Constitution.

  • COMMISH

    @tvegas40 said...

    Let’s say Commish, Me, Smizzle, and DB730 go to the horse races today. For argument sakes let’s say only 2 horses are running. Commish, Me, and Smiz bet $10 on the #1 horse because he’s a gray. DB730 bets $10 on the #2 horse because he used the figures from the racing form (past results) and he’s pretty knowledgeable about horse racing. Some people believe wrongly that you are playing against the “house” in horse racing but every bet that you can make you are playing against other bettors. In this instance the total pool would be $40- the track takes out its percentage (rake) we will use 10% for an example. So $36 is left in the pot – if the 1 horse wins us 3 bettors get $12 if the #2 horse wins DB730 gets it all $36. This is gambling. It always has been always will and the parallels to DFS are pretty major. In both instances we all have access to information, we all picked the way/style to play, we are all playing against each other and someone is taking a rake.

    Your same argument could be made for Powerball and MegaMillions lottery games. The pool is based on the amount of money put into the pool. If you hit the numbers that many others used, your pot will be smaller than one had you picked numbers picked by few. The difference is that the lottery is a game of chance while DFS games are games of skill.

  • COMMISH

    @depalma13 said...

    DFS is gambling. I don’t know why anyone even tries to say it isn’t.

    Of course that is not the issue. The issue is no government should ever be able to stop any individual from spending money any way they chose as long as that spent money does not violate another individual’s Constitutional rights.

    Freedom has been corrupted by an electorate dumbed down by a government educational system designed to keep two parties in power at the expense of the U.S. Constitution.

    I wish EVERYONE would go back and read my original post. This was NEVER meant to a debate about the definition of “gambling”. I even tried in subsequent posts to state this, but nobody wanted to listen. By crafting that randomly drafted lineup, I wanted to show how DFS games were NOT games of chance but were really games of skill. This is what the “challenge” part of my post was meant to expose. Somehow, this whole thread was hijacked by the “DFS is gambling” crowd. Outside of the current legal environment, who cares what you call it?

    BTW, I couldn’t agree more with depalma13’s last two paragraphs.

  • COMMISH

    @AQUAFTM45 said...

    Gambling as relevant to the law entails a game. A house is not a game. Stupid argument.

    When you buy something (a house, bond, stock, mutual fund, etc.) with the hopes of earning a profit, what do you call it? When you enter a DFS game with the hopes of earning a profit, what do you call it? What is the difference, if any?

    Let me give you the mentality of the TYPICAL home buyer. If he (she) makes a killing on the purchase and sale of a home, he will claim he used his superior investment knowledge. In other words, he will take all the credit for the gain, even if he was largely lucky. On the other the mentality of the TYPICAL foreclosed homeowner will be quite different. He will look to place the blame for the loss on anything but himself. The loss was the result of just bad luck. It had nothing to do with his lack of knowledge or skill. All you have to do is read foreclosed homeowner stories to see this.

    I wish I knew the source of this but here is something I once heard. You will NEVER see winners at a Gamblers Anonymous meeting. You won’t hear a winner at a meeting state, “I have a big problem; I am winning too much.”

  • tvegas40

    Horse Racing is not anything like a lottery it is more like DFS – you realize race information is posted and people use this information to make their selections. The more knowledgeable you are the more you will profit. In horse racing there has been for years & years algorithms, syndicates, scripting, computer odds simulation, etc etc.

  • COMMISH

    @tvegas40 said...

    Horse Racing is not anything like a lottery it is more like DFS – you realize race information is posted and people use this information to make their selections. The more knowledgeable you are the more you will profit. In horse racing there has been for years & years algorithms, syndicates, scripting, computer odds simulation, etc etc.

    I’ve bet on horse racing before; I know the dynamics of it. A major point in your original post concerned the betting pool (parimutuel betting). I made the comparison to the pool of money available to the winners of a lottery. It is not that unlike the pool available for each horse race. The more winners in a given pool results in a smaller payout for each individual winner. The difference between the two is that horse racing is a game of skill, while the lottery is a game of chance. AGAIN, this is the point I was trying to make in my original post. Please go read that post again. That original post was NOT about defining gambling. It was about showing the difference between games of chance and games of skill.

  • jjwd

    @depalma13 said...

    DFS is gambling. I don’t know why anyone even tries to say it isn’t.

    Of course that is not the issue. The issue is no government should ever be able to stop any individual from spending money any way they chose as long as that spent money does not violate another individual’s Constitutional rights.

    Freedom has been corrupted by an electorate dumbed down by a government educational system designed to keep two parties in power at the expense of the U.S. Constitution.

    Amen to that. Also we don’t have a free press anymore, just look to the borderline slanderous garbage the large media outlets are doing on DFS. All that “ignorant” reporting is just done to force public opinion toward regulation (taxation).

  • whateverworks_187

    By definition alone many things are considered gambling. Magic The Gathering (the card game) is a 600 Million dollar industry, and runs massive tournaments year round for prizes that until very recently rivaled FD/DK etc. People pay an entrance fee, and the top finishers win prizes in the thousands. It’s a game of skill, but also has a degree of randomness and luck.

    Nobody is trying to shut them down, and it’s not seen by the public as gambling though it fits the definition perfectly.

    The negative association that has drawn scrutiny is partially being the association with sports, but more importantly is the horrible advertising. FD/DK advertise DFS not as a game of skill, but a sure fire get rich scheme with a heavy focus on giant million dollar checks. When people see this they immediately think lottery.

  • natroslezka

    Gamblers who pick teams to win or lose don’t have to itemize individual play within their bet in a visual way, so they may have skill but don’t have to show it by just picking a team to win.

  • CeeGee

    • 379

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #30

      RG Tiered Ranking

    In my opinion, the “skill” involved in being successful long term in DFS has shifted tremendously, from people who had advanced sports knowledge to people who have advanced programming knowledge to build models / scripts.

    IMO the scripts / models take away from needing to really know each individual sport as well as you had to before.

    Both are “skills” for sure.
    Both are attainable by everyone (some more than others).

    The latter is not really what DFS “sells” itself as, and really isn’t the true essence of what DFS “should be”. Its no longer about your own knowledge of the game (ala poker) its about your programming knowledge

    Also – DFS “is” gambling. Anytime you risk something with the chance of gaining something more, you are gambling. These companies took a loophole and ran with it. I don’t believe any of them thought DFS would explode as quickly as it has, which is why we’re having these issues now

  • CeeGee

    • 379

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #30

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @whateverworks – i totally agree with you. I don’t really think the general public would care as much if they weren’t smacked in the face with these ads during every commercial break on radio and tv…

    now, every time they (general public) see’s one of these ads, they’ll immediately think about “insider trading”…

    Its a shame really, that FD and DK weren’t smart enough to see this coming

  • WilliamDeBrigham

    Poker is much more a game of skill than DFS….

  • Neiderman

    • 2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    Is it just me or does every one of Ryazan post make you want to smoke his ass in DFS. Not sure if that’s his objective or if he is just that cocky… Ryazan slow down on the testosterone pills buddy. Everyone can see your rank you don’t have to keep telling everyone your a top DFS player.

  • COMMISH

    @CeeGee said...

    @whateverworks – i totally agree with you. I don’t really think the general public would care as much if they weren’t smacked in the face with these ads during every commercial break on radio and tv…

    now, every time they (general public) see’s one of these ads, they’ll immediately think about “insider trading”…

    Its a shame really, that FD and DK weren’t smart enough to see this coming

    It is the public that really scares me. When the regulators really start poking around, and they will, they are going to be responding to a public looking for blood. Cooler heads will NOT prevail. I predict this will happen after a money-related scandal at one of the DFS sites. This scandal will involve something like embezzling, or money laundering. The regulators will be on a witch hunt. Nobody will care that DFS are games of skill. The degenerates (the public perception of players) playing these games must be stopped from hurting themselves. That will be the cry. Hopefully this won’t happen. I still believe there is a good chance that our representatives in Congress will view the potential fee and tax revenues from the industry to be too valuable to pass up. Thus, they will take the regulation route over the banishment route.

  • dingdangdong

    Everything is a gamble since nothing is guaranteed.

  • dingdangdong

    Poker is much more of a skill game than DFS. If that’s considered gambling then so is DFS.

  • WilliamDeBrigham

    Yeh I could beat a top DFS player 40% of the time H2H pretty sure, If you gave me 10000 chips against Negreanu’s 10000 chips or any other top pro it would be much less than that

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