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  • DavidK44

    Almost every time scripts come up in these forums, the debate is on the substantive value of them – whether they give anyone an actual advantage (“just build better lineups”), whether maybe certain scripts do, whether sites should ban them to level the playing field or not, or whether the playing field has nothing to do with scripts.

    I think this element is overlooked – the vast majority of the population in America doesn’t know anything about DFS except what they hear on TV. Thanks to FD/DK’s insane advertising blitz, and a few media reports that may or may not have carried ulterior motives, the public perception on DFS is not paticularly positive. They also don’t really understand what a script is, or what it does, or why it may or may not give an advantage. They just hear that the top pros use scripts as part of a report, and often times the reports say the scripts are part of why the pros beat them (regardless of whether or not it’s true).

    Perception is often far more important than reality. If the public percieves scripts to be a problem, then they’re a problem. Unless either FTSA, or DK/FD, or Rotogrinders, or some other entity, wants to put out a massive marketing plan to try to change the perception about scripts and what they can or can’t do, then this perception is probably never going to change. And unlesss public perception changes, then scripts need to go. Period.

    The long-term health of DFS depends on casual players continuing to play for low-stakes, losing small amounts to the overall pool from time to time, as well as new customers signing up on a regular basis. It also depends on having politicial entities and big corporations not looking for any small thing to jump on to try to go after the entire landscape. Scripts, specifically the public perception of scripts and their increased awareness of the use of them, are a huge problem for the industry. They really need to be banned. Not because they’re bad, not because they may give an advantage, but because the vast majority of the population outside of DFS, and a significant portion of the population inside DFS, think they give an advantage.

    The same theory is why Ethan should have been let go by Draft Kings almost immediately. Regardless of whether or not he had access to ownership percentages before lock, and regardless of whether he used said ownership percentage information to build a FanDuel Lineup, thanks to media reporting that was either incompetent, lazy, stupid or had blatant ulterior motives, the narrative was “DraftKings employee uses insider information to win $350,000 on FanDuel”, and the public perception was almost universally that exact narrative.

    Too often people on here focus on the substance of an issue, forgetting that for the most part, the American public is uninformed, and isn’t going to turn to a Rotogrinders thread for a substantive debate on the issue. So regardless of whether something actually happened, what “Joe Sixpack” thinks is just as important, if not more important, than what actually happened.

  • tonytone1908

    @DavidK44 said...

    You can get in trouble for breaking rules even if they don’t actually give you an advantage. The best example of this I can think of is that it turns out that the Doctor that A-Rod was using for steroids a few years ago (Dr. Bosch) had no clue what he was doing in terms of actually useful steroids, and what he gave A-Rod had no actual ability to help him play better or get stronger or lift weights more often or any of it. He was basically a huckster (this as opposed to the BALCO guys, for example, who legitimately knew what they were doing).

    I don’t want to turn this into an A-Rod/steroids thread, it was just an example of someone breaking a rule even if it didn’t actually benefit him. If Ethan looked at sesnitive, private data, and used it to help make his lineups, even if it didn’t give him a material edge or help him, or be the cause of his playing well, it’s still cheating.

    Too often people on this forum, yourself included, focus on debating the substantive points of what Ethan may or may not have done. It misses the point. If you break rules, even if they don’t help you, you need to be punished. If Ethan really did look at ownership data at 12:45 PM, and built his FD lineup based on DK ownership data, regardless of whether or not that’s even a good strategy, and regardless of whether that’s the reason why he won, he still accessed sensitive data he was not supposed to access, and used in a way he was not supposed to. That’s a HUGE deal, regardless of whether or not it gave him an edge.

    Granted, it’s only a huge deal because the vast majority of people can’t understand past “This guy had inside information, and he won, therefore that’s why he won”, but unless you can figure out a way to change/educate the American public (good luck with that), that’s the world we live in.

    I agree with what you’re saying. I think he should be punished I just don’t if they have enough to go after him on anything. It’s unfortunate DK opened themselves up for something like this to happen. The problem is how do you stop it from happening again? No matter what you do someone in the company will have access to this information. Who and how many? Who knows? It just really sucks that one idiot is going to ruin this for all of us.

    Even if you ban employees from playing someone could still pass information on to someone else. I mean, no matter what safeguards you try to put it, people will get around them. Hell people in Nevada could get their cousin in California to enter their lineups for them for instance. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

    But will one bad instance of someone claiming an exec pulled up a webpage that the person didn’t even actually see from what I understand be the downfall? I mean, it’s still one person’s word against another that the guy even did that isn’t it?

  • tonytone1908

    @hokie2009 said...

    Why don’t the sites sacrifice one 30s commercial and build the most ridiculously badass advanced roster management utility on their sites, and put an end to all of this? They could easily build something that works way better than anything any of the “pros” are doing and make it available for everyone, and it would be done in almost zero time. Put in it every feature that people want and they deem acceptable, and ban the use of all other processes, and then enforce that as best as possible.

    So who deems what features are acceptable and what aren’t? Then we have a whole new argument there.

    Even after all that, some people will still have access to tools and information that others aren’t. People will still have scripts that others don’t. They might take a hell of a lot longer to run through but they’ll be there.

    No matter how level you want the playing field to be it will just never be as level as people want it to be. Nor do I think it should be but apparently that’s my own opinion. If it was level it would really be gambling then because the skill would be completely gone.

  • iSplashRollz

    @tonytone1908 said...

    So who deems what features are acceptable and what aren’t? Then we have a whole new argument there.

    Even after all that, some people will still have access to tools and information that others aren’t. People will still have scripts that others don’t. They might take a hell of a lot longer to run through but they’ll be there.

    No matter how level you want the playing field to be it will just never be as level as people want it to be. Nor do I think it should be but apparently that’s my own opinion. If it was level it would really be gambling then because the skill would be completely gone.

    If it was a level playing field the skill would be gone?? Huh??

  • tonytone1908

    @iSplashRollz said...

    If it was a level playing field the skill would be gone?? Huh??

    Where would the skill be? Please enlighten me.

  • DavidK44

    @tonytone1908 said...

    So who deems what features are acceptable and what aren’t? Then we have a whole new argument there.

    Even after all that, some people will still have access to tools and information that others aren’t. People will still have scripts that others don’t. They might take a hell of a lot longer to run through but they’ll be there.

    No matter how level you want the playing field to be it will just never be as level as people want it to be. Nor do I think it should be but apparently that’s my own opinion. If it was level it would really be gambling then because the skill would be completely gone.

    Not really sure we agree on what “level playing field” is. It simply means that everyone’s playing by the same rules – in Ethan’s case, access to information that no one else has access to means it is not a level playing field.

    If we are going to have a sword fight, and you are allowed any sword you want but I am allowed just broadsword, it is not a level playing field. Even if it turns out that the broadsword is the optimal sword of choice. Again that’s why I am trying to seperate whether or not the information was actually helpful from the fact that he (possibly) had access to it.

    That you are better at using a broadsword than I am is why a sword duel is a game of skill, and why you will defeat me. That you can also choose to use a dagger instead means the playing field isn’t level, because you have an advanatage (you can choose any weapon) and I cannot.

  • iSplashRollz

    @tonytone1908 said...

    Where would the skill be? Please enlighten me.

    Ahhh the old turn the question around defense after spewing nonsense. Gotcha.

  • DavidK44

    @tonytone1908 said...

    I agree with what you’re saying. I think he should be punished I just don’t if they have enough to go after him on anything. It’s unfortunate DK opened themselves up for something like this to happen. The problem is how do you stop it from happening again? No matter what you do someone in the company will have access to this information. Who and how many? Who knows? It just really sucks that one idiot is going to ruin this for all of us.

    Even if you ban employees from playing someone could still pass information on to someone else. I mean, no matter what safeguards you try to put it, people will get around them. Hell people in Nevada could get their cousin in California to enter their lineups for them for instance. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

    But will one bad instance of someone claiming an exec pulled up a webpage that the person didn’t even actually see from what I understand be the downfall? I mean, it’s still one person’s word against another that the guy even did that isn’t it?

    Unlesss DK employees are unionized, or the employment contract says differently, they don’t have to have anything to fire him. They are the employer, they can fire anyone for any reason they want except the few protected classes (race, gender, religion, etc.), and a few random legal scenarios (can’t fire someone for reporting sexual harrasment, for example).

    They can fire him because he published ownership data that he wasn’t supposed to, they can fire him because he poses for pictures with a hat backwards, they can fire him for posting on Rotogrinders. So doesn’t really matter “what they have on him”.

    How do you stop it? That’s a fantastic question. You’re right that it seems that you can never fully stop it. But you can make clear that the use of the information for anything other than the few purposes that an employee needs to access it is an immediately firable offense, and have aggressive internal investigatory committees to make sure the data isn’t used badly. You can also develop very strict protocols for how employees can access the data. The once in a blue moon time that a celebrity or sports athlete’s medical information is leaked because someone didn’t follow the incredibly strict protocols in place (or worse, if it was intentionally leaked), you can damn well know that someone gets fired. And another failsafe is banning not just employees, but relatives of employees from entering/winning contests. Not ideal, many companies don’t let relatives of employees enter/win contests.

    There are ways you can make it tougher to use the data in an inapprorpiate manner, and there are ways you can make sure anyone who does use it inappropriately, regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental, is dealt with quickly and permanently. It won’t stop abuse, but it will certainly help curtail it. Just because something is impossible to fully stop doesn’t mean you don’t try to aggressively try to limit it to as little as possible.

  • walterg55

    @tonytone1908 said...

    Every business in the United States is a money grabbing operation.

    If only you people put this same energy into real laws and legislations we might actually get something changed in this country.

    But we’re all happy as long as the government keeps giving us handouts. I guess they want DFS to be a handout too?

    Just when I thought you could not possibly top the total lack of comprehension and ignorance of many of your earlier posts, you do. Bravo Sir you are setting the bar high.

  • tonytone1908

    @DavidK44 said...

    Not really sure we agree on what “level playing field” is. It simply means that everyone’s playing by the same rules – in Ethan’s case, access to information that no one else has access to means it is not a level playing field.

    If we are going to have a sword fight, and you are allowed any sword you want but I am allowed just broadsword, it is not a level playing field. Even if it turns out that the broadsword is the optimal sword of choice. Again that’s why I am trying to seperate whether or not the information was actually helpful from the fact that he (possibly) had access to it.

    That you are better at using a broadsword than I am is why a sword duel is a game of skill, and why you will defeat me. That you can also choose to use a dagger instead means the playing field isn’t level, because you have an advanatage (you can choose any weapon) and I cannot.

    As far as level playing field I mean by scripting, which is what I thought the topic of this thread was. Leaked information has nothing to with scripting.

  • tonytone1908

    @walterg55 said...

    Just when I thought you could not possibly top the total lack of comprehension and ignorance of many of your earlier posts, you do. Bravo Sir you are setting the bar high.

    Hey bud, when you want to actually ADD something to the conversation, maybe, state your point or opinion, you let me know, OK? Thanks.

    If if wasn’t for that USMC avatar, my response might not have been the same.

  • tonytone1908

    @iSplashRollz said...

    Ahhh the old turn the question around defense after spewing nonsense. Gotcha.

    SKILL = EDGE

    You only have the edge because you know something that others don’t. Again, this thread is about scripting, not leaks. If everyone has access to same tools I’m already paying sites like this for, where is my edge?

  • DavidK44

    @tonytone1908 said...

    SKILL = EDGE

    You only have the edge because you know something that others don’t. Again, this thread is about scripting, not leaks. If everyone has access to same tools I’m already paying sites like this for, where is my edge?

    From being vastly smarter than them and vastly better at “using” the tools.

  • DavidK44

    @tonytone1908 said...

    As far as level playing field I mean by scripting, which is what I thought the topic of this thread was. Leaked information has nothing to with scripting.

    Forget whether or not scripting offers an advantage. It’s percieved to be an unlevel playing field because in the minds of many not so informed people (aka the general public) scripts offer an advantage (dubious), and because the better players have access to scripts that they don’t (also dubious). That Rotogrinders offers a script doesn’t change much because the public is lazy. If FD offererd their own script, or banned scripts, I still am quite confident any person on this forum could outsmart almost every single member of the “general public”. And I’m sure the general public would find something else to blame, for sure, but scripts as a whole give a scapegoat that is way too easy to identify and target, and simply not important enough to the people who want to use them to be worth ailenating (and harming) the general public (and their desire to play DFS).

    In regards to a level playing field, again we have to distinguish between ACTUAL level playing field and PERCIEVED level playing field. The public percieves scripts to give an advantage, and percives it that they don’t have access to these scripts. So it’s not a percieved level playing field. The actual truth, well unless some pros are using scripts not allowed in the ToS, then yes, the field is level, because Rotogriders script appears to pretty much do anything that’s allowed.

    But perception and reality are not the same.

  • tonytone1908

    @DavidK44 said...

    From being vastly smarter than them and vastly better at “using” the tools.

    If you’re vastly smarter than why the hell do you need the tools?

  • DavidK44

    @tonytone1908 said...

    If you’re vastly smarter than why the hell do you need the tools?

    I didn’t say I was vastly smarter, I was saying where your edge is. I was trying to give you a compliment.

    I also, going back to the initial post, don’t think scripts should be banned because of the actual edge they offer. I think they should be banned because of the percieved edge they offer. Whether or not they actually do is irrelevant. I do use rotogrinders script, but if all scripts were banned, I would be quite happy, not because I would feel I have any more or less of an advantage, but because I would feel that DFS’ long term ability to survive and be healthy would be greatly increased by not having scripts.

    This has nothing to do with whether or not they offer an edge. As noted above, I do use Rotogrinders script, and the couple of hours it saves me entering stuff is certainly helpful because it allows more hours to focus on research. But I’d gladly sacrifice those hours if it was for the long term benefit of DFS staying healthy, but that would only come if scripts were banned outright. I don’t see the NYTimes running an article “DavidK to stop using a script, everyone else undecided, world rejoices, DFS will stay forever” as an article.

  • rsigler65

    @1greatbuyz said...

    Any script or program used on these sites to enter lineups and scoop up new player head to heads was just opening the door for this chaos. It kinda reminds me of steroids. Makes you faster and stronger, but hey who doesn’t want an edge?

    First, you gotta be careful when you lump lineup entering and scooping in the same category. As I’ve said numerous times in other threads, csv upload lineup entering saves me time and improves my quality of life. It’s called technology. There’s nothing wrong with it – it saves time. I think you don’t understand the difference between ‘good’ scripting and ‘bad’ scripting. Entering lineups quickly – good. Scooping H2H’s from fish – bad. Scripted lineup entering is also allowed by the sites – scooping not. There are other varying levels and types of scripting. I wish people (starting with RG community) would become able to differentiate between them.

  • DavidK44

    @rsigler65 said...

    First, you gotta be careful when you lump lineup entering and scooping in the same category. As I’ve said numerous times in other threads, csv upload lineup entering saves me time and improves my quality of life. It’s called technology. There’s nothing wrong with it – it saves time. I think you don’t understand the difference between ‘good’ scripting and ‘bad’ scripting. Entering lineups quickly – good. Scooping H2H’s from fish – bad. Scripted lineup entering is also allowed by the sites – scooping not. There are other varying levels and types of scripting. I wish people (starting with RG community) would become able to differentiate between them.

    If the people on RG can’t differentiate, do you expect those who just casually play DFS, or those who don’t play DFS at all, to differentiate?

    That’s why scripts have to go. As much as it would suck.

  • tonytone1908

    @DavidK44 said...

    If the people on RG can’t differentiate, do you expect those who just casually play DFS, or those who don’t play DFS at all, to differentiate?

    That’s why scripts have to go. As much as it would suck.

    There will always be scripts whether you like it or not. They might have to be slowed down so as not to look like a script but they will always be there.

    Don’t people understand this?

    No matter what you do to level it out, people will always find a way.

  • Zieg30

    • 714

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    The only scripts that truly make a difference are those that are offline. Those aren’t ever going anywhere.

  • frob2424

    I’m new to this game but have been playing full season fantasy for 20 years starting with my friends and I scoring games on spreadsheets from the Monday newspaper box scores. I finally decided to get into DFS and give it a try. I did some research and felt comfortable enough to deposit some cash. I’ve lost more than I’ve won but I’ve had a great time doing it, researching the games and the players and watching games that I wouldn’t normally be watching.

    Someone mentioned in this thread that the new players will play out their deposit and not add funds. That is exactly what I am doing. I entered all my money last weekend and ended up winning. I will do the same thing this weekend and if I lose, I’m done. If I knew everything I know now prior to depositing I wouldn’t have ever deposited a dime. I’m sure some of you are saying good riddance but I’m sure I am not the only one who is doing this. Knowing the top people win all the money and many of them use scripts (whether they truly help or not, I honestly don’t know), possible inside information being used, employees winning a lot on other sites, etc… All this stuff looks terrible to the new players. The vets may think it’s all no big deal, although I seem to see a bunch of vets saying they have brought this stuff up for years and nothing changed, but it is a big deal to new people and prospective people and this will not end well.

  • NelloJello

    @rsigler65 said...

    First, you gotta be careful when you lump lineup entering and scooping in the same category. As I’ve said numerous times in other threads, csv upload lineup entering saves me time and improves my quality of life. It’s called technology. There’s nothing wrong with it – it saves time. I think you don’t understand the difference between ‘good’ scripting and ‘bad’ scripting. Entering lineups quickly – good. Scooping H2H’s from fish – bad. Scripted lineup entering is also allowed by the sites – scooping not. There are other varying levels and types of scripting. I wish people (starting with RG community) would become able to differentiate between them.

    No one cares about the quality of your life to put it mildly. If you want to enter 900 line ups sit there take the hours needed to do it or not play so many teams.

    All scripting is bad.

  • rsigler65

    @NelloJello said...

    No one cares about the quality of your life

    False. Everyone cares about their own quality of life, as companies do their customers, or at least should. If entering lineups faster helps everyone, and it brings in more money for the sites, why wouldn’t it be made available? Should we all go back to using newspapers and playing once a week because a bunch of people aren’t comfortable with computers?

  • hbbomaha

    @DavidK44 said...

    Unlesss DK employees are unionized, or the employment contract says differently, they don’t have to have anything to fire him. They are the employer, they can fire anyone for any reason they want except the few protected classes (race, gender, religion, etc.), and a few random legal scenarios (can’t fire someone for reporting sexual harrasment, for example).

    They can fire him because he published ownership data that he wasn’t supposed to, they can fire him because he poses for pictures with a hat backwards, they can fire him for posting on Rotogrinders. So doesn’t really matter “what they have on him”.

    How do you stop it? That’s a fantastic question. You’re right that it seems that you can never fully stop it. But you can make clear that the use of the information for anything other than the few purposes that an employee needs to access it is an immediately firable offense, and have aggressive internal investigatory committees to make sure the data isn’t used badly. You can also develop very strict protocols for how employees can access the data. The once in a blue moon time that a celebrity or sports athlete’s medical information is leaked because someone didn’t follow the incredibly strict protocols in place (or worse, if it was intentionally leaked), you can damn well know that someone gets fired. And another failsafe is banning not just employees, but relatives of employees from entering/winning contests. Not ideal, many companies don’t let relatives of employees enter/win contests.

    There are ways you can make it tougher to use the data in an inapprorpiate manner, and there are ways you can make sure anyone who does use it inappropriately, regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental, is dealt with quickly and permanently. It won’t stop abuse, but it will certainly help curtail it. Just because something is impossible to fully stop doesn’t mean you don’t try to aggressively try to limit it to as little as possible.

    So, an overlooked element of this situation is that Ethan has equity in DK. The agreement that governs that might make it not an at will employment. It may also have termination guidelines.

    As far as tweeting info…. At least he was first and right… 90 percent is on DK for not having better controls… Like only allowing queries after total lineup lock…

  • DavidK44

    @hbbomaha said...

    So, an overlooked element of this situation is that Ethan has equity in DK. The agreement that governs that might make it not an at will employment. It may also have termination guidelines.

    As far as tweeting info…. At least he was first and right… 90 percent is on DK for not having better controls… Like only allowing queries after total lineup lock…

    I did not know that he had equity in DK. Obviously that changes things in regards to “why wasn’t he fired”. Not only would the agreement not be in at-will terms, I imagine even if they did have cause to fire him, it’s not as easy as simply booting him because of how his equity would be handled (because I doubt they would want him to continue to have it if he did something that reached the level of for-cause termination).

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