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  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    So, ganondorf (a player who I remember as being a pretty big deal) is in my 2350 man $0.25 tournament with a $50 top prize and a prize pool of $500. He entered 200 lineups into this tournament (which would cost him $50). Aside from just trying to be a jerk, what is the point of doing something like this? Am I wrong in my thinking here, or is this just another sign of sites letting big BR players do whatever they want?

    BTW, this is the same guy with 500 entries in the Millionaire Maker.

  • Blinders

    If you did not let the top players jam 200 entries into the .25c games they would quit playing. So just make it a 2 sec click.

  • Heterodox

    @Colin408 said...

    When something is your job you have to take any financial advantage you can get.

    All I hear is how people whose “job” this is don’t care, they do what they need to do, maximize EV, blah blah. I work in a warehouse. I like to play DFS as a hobby, doing research in my spare time. I think THAT’S a perfectly valid way to play the game, and I think there are alot of people like me. Why should I or any of us have the least bit of sympathy for people who want to turn our hobby into their job? And I’m not saying I don’t, I’m just saying there’s no absolute right involved here that I’m morally or intellectually obligated to respect if it could only be explained to me.

    I’m not saying what anyone’s job should or shouldn’t be. I’m just saying I don’t understand why people make this point as if I’m supposed to give a shit. Why does anyone think people like me should just be on board with making everything as easy and as profitable as possible for pros, at our expense?

    Not to single you out, Colin, just a jumping off point here, don’t take it as a personal attack. If your overall point were that it’s up to the sites to tend to the ecosystem and you can’t blame the pros, I think that’s valid, but I don’t necessarily agree.

  • jimmyrad

    @Heterodox said...

    All I hear is how people whose “job” this is don’t care, they do what they need to do, maximize EV, blah blah.

    no, a lot of pros don’t max enter the quarter games, because they’re not all scummy nits. So let’s not lump everyone together.

  • Heterodox

    @jimmyrad said...

    no, a lot of pros don’t max enter the quarter games, because they’re not all scummy nits. So let’s not lump everyone together.

    Oh I agree with you. In fact, they’re trying to lump themselves together by using that argument, as if everyone is doing this kind of thing. They do it repeatedly to justify all kinds of bullshit, and I just get sick of seeing it for reasons already stated.

  • Colin408

    @Heterodox said...

    All I hear is how people whose “job” this is don’t care, they do what they need to do, maximize EV, blah blah. I work in a warehouse. I like to play DFS as a hobby, doing research in my spare time. I think THAT’S a perfectly valid way to play the game, and I think there are alot of people like me. Why should I or any of us have the least bit of sympathy for people who want to turn our hobby into their job? And I’m not saying I don’t, I’m just saying there’s no absolute right involved here that I’m morally or intellectually obligated to respect if it could only be explained to me.

    I’m not saying what anyone’s job should or shouldn’t be. I’m just saying I don’t understand why people make this point as if I’m supposed to give a shit. Why does anyone think people like me should just be on board with making everything as easy and as profitable as possible for pros, at our expense?

    Not to single you out, Colin, just a jumping off point here, don’t take it as a personal attack. If your overall point were that it’s up to the sites to tend to the ecosystem and you can’t blame the pros, I think that’s valid, but I don’t necessarily agree.

    Deleted post.

  • firesouth72

    I’m really not trying to troll or be a dick but I don’t understand why anyone would think that the pro’s owe the game or new/low stakes players anything. Where else does this mentality exist aside from a parent letting their kids win at tic tac toe. When you go play basketball at the local park do you ask the better players to play elsewhere or wait for next? How do you improve your game playing against similar talent? Nobody said winning at DFS was easy, in fact many articles will plainly tell you the odds are stacked against you. There are plenty of winning players that aren’t entering 200 lineups. People that aren’t need to figure out how to get there, not change how others play.

  • slashtc

    The pros don’t owe anyone anything, but when their pond dries up and it’s just pros vs pros, DFS is over for them as well as us. If we’re being honest, a little less greed would go a long way towards sustaining their situation, but greed ruins everything eventually, and this will be no different.

  • FunkyColdModella

    @firesouth72 said...

    I’m really not trying to troll or be a dick but I don’t understand why anyone would think that the pro’s owe the game or new/low stakes players anything. Where else does this mentality exist aside from a parent letting their kids win at tic tac toe. When you go play basketball at the local park do you ask the better players to play elsewhere or wait for next? How do you improve your game playing against similar talent? Nobody said winning at DFS was easy, in fact many articles will plainly tell you the odds are stacked against you. There are plenty of winning players that aren’t entering 200 lineups. People that aren’t need to figure out how to get there, not change how others play.

    I don’t think anyone is stating the Pros owe anything. It seems those with concerns are stating etiquette and longevity of DFS as the reasons why Pros should back off the smaller contests (or at the very least don’t max out the entries which will drive off a good number of people).

    If the pros want to be greedy and drive off the competition, they’ll drive off those that would support keeping DFS legal.

    It’s short sighted and increases the sense of apathy towards keeping DFS legal. Pigs are fed and hogs are slaughtered.

  • BobGrinder

    @firesouth72 said...

    I’m really not trying to troll or be a dick but I don’t understand why anyone would think that the pro’s owe the game or new/low stakes players anything. Where else does this mentality exist aside from a parent letting their kids win at tic tac toe. When you go play basketball at the local park do you ask the better players to play elsewhere or wait for next? How do you improve your game playing against similar talent? Nobody said winning at DFS was easy, in fact many articles will plainly tell you the odds are stacked against you. There are plenty of winning players that aren’t entering 200 lineups. People that aren’t need to figure out how to get there, not change how others play.

    You just don’t get it. Most people play micro stakes because they are playing for the fun of it and or they are trying to learn the game. For them it’s not about the money, but some douche has to come along and make it about the money. Nobody is asking to be allowed to win. I can’t speak for others but I’m not even saying they shouldn’t be allowed to play whatever stakes they want (bring it on bitches) but when they enter 200 LU’s, almost 10% of the field, they are doing it for one reason. Greed. Like Jabba the Hutt with a straw they feel the need to try and suck every last penny (or quarter in this case) out of the room. I’m not against multiple LU’s but allowing someone with the means to use their bankroll to try and push the micro stakes around is not good for the game.

    That brings me to the next part. You’re dead wrong thinking a pro does not owe something to the game. If you’re a “pro”, someone who is trying to earn a living from the game, you DO owe it to the game not to do anything to destroy the game. If what new players learn at low stakes is that they have no real chance without a serious bankroll how long do you think they will stick around?

    Like the idiots running companies who continue to replace workers with robots/computers to try and squeeze every last penny of profit out. What they don’t get is that eventually they too will get replaced because profit only cares about one thing, profit. What do they think will happen when nobody has a job to be able to purchase their products/services? But that’s the problem, they don’t think. They just see the dollar signs and lunge.

  • Heterodox

    @Colin408 said...

    Not starting any fights or bickering matches here, but are people seriously this hurt or surprised this happens? Especially since there is numerous different options out there, now if that isn’t good enough and it becomes an even bigger problem you can complain to the websites who allow it, not the pros who profit from it.

    You could leave the “hurt” part out of it. No one is crying here. We think this is a terrible look for the game. We understand his reasons for doing it. And, as Jimmy noted, plenty of pros AREN’T doing this type of thing. So it’s not like it’s just a “standard practice” issue. We aren’t even talking about the big Quarter Arcade with tens of thousands of entries. This was a 2350 player tournament, and he bought up 8.5% of the field. IN A QUARTER GAME. It’s beyond ridiculous any way you want to cut it, and the fact of the matter is if someone needs to do that to make being a “pro” viable, then maybe they should find another line of work.

    And as far as the “you can just go to single entry” point…how many games do you want to just keep telling people they can stay out of? Never mind that you can’t get to them to tell them this before they see it for themselves, get turned off, and don’t come back. Does DK offer the .25 games for casual players, or for big bankroll pros to add pennies to their bottom line? I mean, it’s hard for me to grasp that this is even a debatable issue.

  • Heterodox

    @BobGrinder said...

    That brings me to the next part. You’re dead wrong thinking a pro does not owe something to the game. If you’re a “pro”, someone who is trying to earn a living from the game, you DO owe it to the game not to do anything to destroy the game.

    I don’t know about “owe” but I totally agree aside from that one semantic quibble. It’s not smart to not think about the health of the game, and while the term “scab” may not apply here, since Ganondorf doesn’t owe other players anything, I have as much right to shame and ridicule him as he has not to care.

  • y2mulder

    This thread is the absolute reason the industry is being investigated. It would take 95% of DFS players 3 hours to make 200 entries, but instead they are up against a guy with a buttload of money and a script who just wants to smash and grab everything in sight.

    It’s bloated pigs like that who are wrecking it all.

  • Colin408

    @Heterodox said...

    You could leave the “hurt” part out of it. No one is crying here. We think this is a terrible look for the game. We understand his reasons for doing it. And, as Jimmy noted, plenty of pros AREN’T doing this type of thing. So it’s not like it’s just a “standard practice” issue. We aren’t even talking about the big Quarter Arcade with tens of thousands of entries. This was a 2350 player tournament, and he bought up 8.5% of the field. IN A QUARTER GAME. It’s beyond ridiculous any way you want to cut it, and the fact of the matter is if someone needs to do that to make being a “pro” viable, then maybe they should find another line of work.

    And as far as the “you can just go to single entry” point…how many games do you want to just keep telling people they can stay out of? Never mind that you can’t get to them to tell them this before they see it for themselves, get turned off, and don’t come back. Does DK offer the .25 games for casual players, or for big bankroll pros to add pennies to their bottom line? I mean, it’s hard for me to grasp that this is even a debatable issue.

    I’m not arguing against the point that it’s a d-bag move at all. When I play a $5 game and see people with 100-200 lineups in EVERY game it pisses me off too… However, if you really want something done about it don’t complain about the “pros”. There are plenty of pros who are good people, but there is always going to be those few guys that ruin and hurt the sport for their own greed.

    Do what myself and many other players have done, write these websites and express your concern. Sitting here questioning this one guy on his “morals” isn’t going to change his ways. Force him to change his ways.

  • Heterodox

    @Colin408 said...

    However, if you really want something done about it don’t complain about the “pros”. There are plenty of pros who are good people, but there is always going to be those few guys that ruin and hurt the sport for their own greed.

    Do what myself and many other players have done, write these websites and express your concern. Sitting here bashing this one guy on his “morals” isn’t going to change his ways. Force him to change his ways.

    These options aren’t mutually exclusive. Why let a scum bag off the hook just because you can go behind his back?

    And, all due respect, but you were the one implicitly including “the pros” in this by portraying the issue as something all pros would do based on their self interest. They don’t all do this. We are just talking about Ganondorf and by extension any others who are like him.

    And not only are these options not mutually exclusive, they actually dovetail. I would say, email support AND publicly shame those who do things like this.

  • Colin408

    I don’t think I said that all pro’s do this, and if I did it was a mistake. However, if you think publically shaming or calling him out is the right thing to do then do it.

    I’m not one for doing that type of stuff, but if it grabs the attention of 1000’s of people and makes it a known problem then go for it.

    Anyways, didn’t mean to offend anyone with those comments. Just stating my opinion.

  • Heterodox

    @Colin408 said...

    I don’t think I said that all pro’s do this, and if I did it was a mistake. However, if you think publically shaming or calling him out is the right thing to do then do it.

    I’m not one for doing that type of stuff, but if it grabs the attention of 1000’s of people and makes it a known problem then go for it.

    Anyways, didn’t mean to offend anyone with those comments. Just stating my opinion.

    I only meant implicitly by painting it as a simple EV calculation that anyone in his position would make, when in fact many in his position don’t.

    I certainly haven’t taken any offense to anything you’ve posted, I think we’re having a reasonable discussion and I hope I’m contributing my part, but I want to say that, on a very basic level, when it’s an issue of the commons and there is no overriding authority to settle it, public shame is not just your only option, it’s an entirely legitimate one.

  • DFS69

    There needs to be a sustainable ecosystem for DFS to survive long term. New players and fish need to be allowed a chance to learn the game and move up the ranks. Otherwise most new players and fish will immediately lose and get frustrated and quit. The games will get harder quickly. With the harder games many daily grinders that were were profitable will become unprofitable and either quit or reduce their volume of play considerably. Sites will have to reduce rake to get those players back, but they probably wont. Eventually everything will dry up. The sites need to be proactive about this or it will be their downfall. The way its set up now is that 1% of the players win almost all the money which is not good for the public image of DFS or for the prospects of DFS surviving long term.

  • KevKev198622

    Yeah it would be nice if big time grinders called out Ganondorf but they wont.

  • TeamTwerk

    Looks like Condia finally used up all his bankroll this week. He was in every single NFL league and multiplier on DK for most of the week. Spreading his entries from $5300 right down to $1 20 man triple ups. This is trash. Imagine how many thousands of random low limit players who might actually care about the tiny amount being played for end up bubbling because this guy wants a few extra pennies.

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