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  • sethfein

    *FINAL UPDATE: Many from RG have stepped up and acknowledged the issue and have shown willingness to take proper steps going forward to avoid the conflict of interest. The term “fade” seems to be the biggest miscommunication among this and it will likely be resolved as well. That was main goal of this thread and initially, I was definitely emotional due to Cal response on twitter that seemed to disregard genuine complaints. It really seems everything is on track now for positive change but the thread is getting out of hand with just focusing on the wrong concepts (whether touts should be trusted in first place and whether I want RG to fire everyone because I lost). The common theme seems to be a big split on whether it is good practice to trust the content for own lineup builds. I do believe RG wants to be able to help common players that don’t have luxury of time to build models and still want a viable lineup for the slate.

    Either way, the goal of seeing update to the content and acknowledgement from the RG contributors of the issue was attained. They won’t turn off the commenting but please understand that a lot of the conversation below evolved from initial discussions in an effort to gain facts and information.*

    UPDATE: Many elements of rant below has been answered or my viewpoint changed since hearing other side. I was torn whether to fully edit post but did not want to create confusion within this thread. Would be ironic to delete a stance after pressure when calling out someone for doing same. So original post is posted but please consider the following:

    1) STL did NOT intend to mislead and is guilty of doing something everyone in DFS does…make decisions close to lock with either gut or intel that changes viewpoint. He was put in tough place and I fully recognize that. I apologize to him if anyone took my post as a personal attack as it was striictly about content that I personally feel is dumb anyways (and still do). Asking for something like a stone cold fade at 1pm EST is as dumb as relying on Anthony Davis injury report during morning shootaround. Change the content to something actually relevant throughout day so touts dont have to defend their reasonable actions with bad optics.

    2) Many RG staff have reached out since this post either thru thread or PM and have taken steps to try to resolve the conflict of interest that many feel exist. It is a positive step forward and so any negativity about past occurences, including KD fade play, should be done with

    3) This is representing those who want to play DFS and simply dont have time to do full research for hours before a slate. I agree only way to win consistently is thru own research but clearly many people feel RG is geared towars those who want a competitive shot with these tout content pieces…they arent catered to guys who have own data process or spreadsheet.

    4) Some asked why not check all touts and why only winning entries. This is really a flawed logic since if guys are paying for content because they dont have time to do research…they definitely dont have time to download every tout lineup builds and compare to any advice given to prove a point that may get ignored. I am sure this has happened many times with different touts and none were with malicious intent at all.

    5) This is my most important point and felt it got lost in hoopla: TOUTS SIGN UP FOR THIS! Lets get this straight. This isnt a non for profit site with pros trying to help common man with DFS. I am sure people are paid for their input based on their qualifications and credibility. Nobody is putting a gun to anyones head and saying “tell me what you know!”. If they make so much playing DFS personally that giving a few players they personally like will shift the market against them, then being paid for tout advice seems like the wrong line of work.

    Saying “well they play so OBVIOUSLY they wont give away their actualy fades and shame on any idiot who takes tout advice” is simply horrible (as many posted below) and if it is true, RG needs a disclaimer on every content that the tout is refusing to disclose actual views and any skill they have for reaearch is not applicable to this post.

    But again, I simply dont believe RG shares this view. If so, and only if this is true, I think RG would be better off having staff that are using actual expertise and helping people with DFS at premium level. Not using reputation to get readers only to mislead them to protect personal research.

    AGAIN, I DONT PERSONALLY BELIEVE THIS BUT READ MANY POSTERS HERE AND THEY SHARE THIS VIEW. I AM SIMPLY ADDRESSING.

    ————————————

    Last night, STLCARDINALS84 created some controversy when he scored a big hit on DK with a lineup that included Kevin Durant. The reason why many were rightfully upset was because Durant was someone that not only he, but all other touts in same question, answered as “stud they are fading in GPP”.

    A similar issue came up when Seige said “If you fade Wiggins and KAT tonight, you are doing DFS wrong” (Wiggins ultimately busted and Seige then had to redefine the term “fade” to his followers). Seige posted a definition of “fade” as the following:

    FADE = Less than a 1/4 of field ownership
    DON’T FADE = Have greater than 0%

    Now, he has since deleted his tweets altogether which is 100% WRONG for any Tout and RG should probably look into standard protocol for going forward considering how much people rely on building lineups, with real money on the line, and then an “established” tout can just delete his recommendation which affects ability to monitor for future reference.

    But there’s more! When pressed why he deleted the tweet, Seige said this:

    PORTION RELATING TO SEIGE ISSUE WITH WIGGINS WAS DELETED DUE TO RESPONSE

    EDIT: Seige responded that this was a miscommunication so I deleted the portion related to alchohol

    So fast forward to last night with STLCARDINALS84 Kevin Durant play. So in the end, Curry gets hurt and KD smashes the slate and lo and behold, STLCARDINALS84 has KD in 3 of 20 lineups when he told the premium RG members he would fade him in a GPP. Cal came to his defense saying that he played him in 1 of 20 lineups (as a lineup stack of the game) and that it’s still a fade. This is actually a very fair argument…if it were accurate. I will give benefit of the doubt to Cal that he doesn’t know how to use his own site ResultsDB to discover exactly how many lineups have a player. He shared a screenshot of just SMALL FORWARDS and shows KD in 1. However, DK has flex so you have to go to ALL to see actual exposures. The real amount is 3 and this is why it’s significant. I checked all 20 lineups and found 5 GS-SAS stacks and here is my opinion on this.

    1) You can not say you are “fading” a stud in a game that you are taking 20% stacking exposure to. He clearly saw value in this game and KD was up there with 3 out 5 stacks (more than Steph). Additionally, I would add that most of his lineups were some form of a stack (Lots of OKC-PHX, some BKN-CHA) so it would make sense to have less KD if you are taking a stacking approach

    2) If Cal is going to step in to validate this issue, then he should take the time to get facts straight. This isn’t some small DFS lineups provider on Twitter..this is likely the largest community of DFS players and the ethics is already a grey area when it comes to touts who offer their evaluations while playing themselves. Very similar to Fanduel employees playing slates they can see the ownership % on to gain an advantage. I would imagine between the influence RG has on DFS players, along with ability to track which players they are giving high projections to (which lineup builders spits out lineups from), they can get a really good idea of low ownership plays.

    3) Please for the love of everything holy define FADE. Almost every casual player sees it as avoid completely either due to brutal matchup or bad pricing. The constant flip flopping, deleting tweets, and inconsistencies is terrible from optics standpoint. It really isn’t that difficult to just take a stand and say who you are completely fading.

    If you really want to know the answer for STLCARDINALS84, here are his own % of players that are “stars” and the 2nd % is the field:

    Russ – 40% | 34%
    Booker – 25% | 31%
    Kemba – 20% | 12%
    Aldridge – 20% | 17%
    Durant – 15% | 9%
    Curry – 15% | 9%
    Howard – 10% | 21%
    Paul George – 10% | 10%
    Kyrie Irving – 5% | 20% SEIGE DEFINITION OF FADE
    KAT – 0% | 28% ANY DEFINITON OF FADE
    Embiid – 0% | 5%
    Simmons – 0% | 15% ANY DEFINITON OF FADE

    The answer to “who are you fading in GPP?” is either Kyrie Irving if you hold a higher standard for “star” from the bottom 3 shown or any of the 3 that he ACTUALLY 100% FADED. This isn’t a very difficult concept. There were no notable late news that affected BOS-MIN game. He had 6 stars with less exposure and yet said he was fading KD.

    The kicker is that he actually was 6% over the field with his Kevin Durant play. This is simply not a fade by even Seige’s definition.

    There is no other way to address this from RG standpoint other than apologize and acknowledge the mistake by both STLCARDINALS84 and TheSeige.

    I made sure to keep this post strictly business and no personal attacks against anyone involved. If replying, please keep same level of ethics if possible because I don’t want to believe that touts have bad intentions on getting people to lean one way and then capitalize on low ownership.

    My goal is to shed light on this issue and hold RG accountable to make proper standards for going forward.

    SIDE POINT: Notorious, STLCardinals84 and Stevietpfl all agreed on a GPP fade of what ended up being the best player on the slate who happened to also be at really low ownership. So the other question may be whether this content even serves a purpose without context behind it.

    EDITED TO MAKE SURE NO IMPLICATION OF PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST BOTH TOUTS. I don’t want to see heads roll and understand it’s a grey area of guys being paid to give professional opinion but also having to be discreet due to personal lineups. Goal is to find common ground between consumer and touts.

    Thanks,
    Seth

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    • Last Updated 2 years ago
  • TeamSwish412

    All you have to do is play 150 combinations of lineups every night, and at some point, you will hit!

  • dolphinkick182

    @tmarohl said...

    Maybe we should have a definitions tab – might help newbies as well. There can be a lot of lingo that can be confusing.
    To me fade means you are not playing a guy. Zero percent exposure.
    Underweight means you will own less than the projected ownership of the field.
    Overweight means you will have more than the projected ownership of the field.
    While we are at it, might as well have a nickname tab as well so we don’t have to answer “Who is ABC” everyday.

    Who is this ABC you are referring to?

  • m4ch1n3

    this how i understand
    fade= 3-20 max
    full fade-150 max unless you doing a game stack
    I guess if he had zero curry in any stacks, you gotta think he had a dude in the stands who shot him with a pellet gun
    just the fact that this thread was responded to shows the integrity of Cal and the rotogrinders staff
    for a dollar a day i can guess i can cancel but I wont I am better with it than without it
    IF I could play the stakes they do I would still used them for ownership

  • pburghpens22

    I think alot of these experts on here are, in my opinion, misleading. I will read, what they say, but ill come to my own conclusions. StL cards is the WORST. I don’t even read anything by him anymore, it’s pointless. Then you got people today like Notorious saying the stud he will fade is Carmelo…since when is Carmelo a stud? Dude is lucky if he breaks 30 fantasy pts

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    • Last Updated 2 years ago
  • texasrangersfan

    • Ranked #93

      RG Tiered Ranking

    I think the moral of the story is Stop Posting Screen Shots. No one wants to see it and no one really cares except a few people that work for the site. When you post the screen shots someone will always analyze your lineup and make sure you are playing what you say. Let’s be honest, a fade is not playing a player at all (Doesn’t matter if it is in a stack or not). I am sure Cards ran a lineup optimizer that included the GS game stack. It picked KD in a few of the stacks. He probably ran this optimizer 10 minutes before lock and didn’t have time to check to make sure all the guys he was playing were the guys he recommended. We all know that Cards is one of the best players so posting screen shots just makes it worse. Let someone else at rotogrinders post your screen shots then your lineup won’t get analyzed as much.

  • madmanjayWV

    @Scumpunch said...

    The expert survey goes beyond simply giving advice on good or bad plays. It literally asks “who are YOU fading in YOUR lineups.” If you are unable to give an honest answer to a question like this, then you shouldn’t be selling your answers to such a question. Pretty simple.

    Or is it, pretty simple?
    Lot of catching up to do in this thread — guess that’s what happens when ur swamped at work.
    On an aside — NBA is utter trash — it’s a crap league and horrid for DFS
    Sure, am I going to play TUESDAY — u betcha — at least $0.50 :)

  • madmanjayWV

    @texasrangersfan said...

    I think the moral of the story is Stop Posting Screen Shots. No one wants to see it and no one really cares except a few people that work for the site. When you post the screen shots someone will always analyze your lineup and make sure you are playing what you say. Let’s be honest, a fade is not playing a player at all (Doesn’t matter if it is in a stack or not). I am sure Cards ran a lineup optimizer that included the GS game stack. It picked KD in a few of the stacks. He probably ran this optimizer 10 minutes before lock and didn’t have time to check to make sure all the guys he was playing were the guys he recommended. We all know that Cards is one of the best players so posting screen shots just makes it worse. Let someone else at rotogrinders post your screen shots then your lineup won’t get analyzed as much.

    U r close ^
    #POSTINGdruinkSCREENshotsMAKESitWORSE

  • joonyari22

    • Blogger of the Month

    the true value of the premium content imo is it tells u where the heard is going – up to the player to decide if its worth tagging along or better to take a different route.

  • divusjulius

    • Blogger of the Month

    if anyone wonders if tilt is possible in DFS, this thread provides many examples of gambling degrading critical thinking.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    Mod Note

    At this point, the discussion isn’t going anywhere and the Original Poster has asked to just lock the thread.

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