INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • kingofqueens

    • 2019 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/sports/draftkings-fanduel-fbi-investigation.html?ref=sports&_r=0

  • mellofellowsu

    As much as we’ve been defending the DFS industry, they’re partially to blame here as well. Why didn’t they made strides to approach lawmakers from a proactive stance instead of waiting for something bad to happen and have the industry be put under a microscope in this way? They had to know this day was coming. Seems like making some political allies would’ve been a better use of money.

  • Olhausen

    I’m shocked these forums haven’t blown up with the news out of Nevada.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Olhausen said...

    I’m shocked these forums haven’t blown up with the news out of Nevada.

    The Nevada thread was created 2 hours ago and is already 6 pages long.

    Trust me, this forum has made us work hard enough as it is the past few weeks. :)

  • barro

    @Ryazan said...

    Media misinformation at its BEST right there. As Kaetorade said, those are JUST winnings, it doesn’t factor in how much money was lost. So you can play for a year and you can come out of it winning $1000, but if you put $99,000 into winning your $100,000 (so your 1K is your final total that you actually won), the media would like to portray you as someone who has won $100,000, which is how they are FALSELY portraying DK.

    I will be so happy when DK sues the hell out of all of these media outlets, especially the awful New York TImes

    I UNDERSTAND it is winnings and not profit but you are guys really poo pooing 10 Million in winnings?
    The article states and I quote:
    “in fact, the top 11 players on average paid $2 million in entry fees and made $135,000 in profit while accounting for 17 percent of all entry fees.”

    That means DK staff has quivilent of average of 5 of the top 11 players working in their office.
    So maybe they only grossed 600k-1 million all combined but they are still pulling a significant amount of cash.
    I did a quick google search that stated DK had 80 employees around 10 months ago. so lets make it an even 100. One cant assume all 100 play on FD and even if they did for the staff to average 100k in winning a year is alot per person. that mean if you’re profitting 25% you’re playing $80000 or over $1500 a week which is a lot if you consider not everyone plays every sport and you’re assuming every single staff member is playing.

    What say you now?

  • rj3494

    @mellofellowsu said...

    As much as we’ve been defending the DFS industry, they’re partially to blame here as well. Why didn’t they made strides to approach lawmakers from a proactive stance instead of waiting for something bad to happen and have the industry be put under a microscope in this way? They had to know this day was coming. Seems like making some political allies would’ve been a better use of money.

    The downfall of DFS as we knew it falls squarely on the shoulders of the CEOs of these companies who are inexperienced and way in over their heads. In an industry like this you needed to be proactive not reactive like these guys have been. Nevada has a lot more money to lobby our representatives in Washington than the fantasy industry does. I would say if your paying your bills with money generated from the DFS industry either through winnings or employment in some way I would think about updating your resume.

  • Olhausen

    @bhdevault said...

    The Nevada thread was created 2 hours ago and is already 6 pages long.

    Trust me, this forum has made us work hard enough as it is the past few weeks. :)

    Thanks bhdevault, I was wondering how everyone wasn’t posting about this.

  • Ryazan

    • x3

      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • x2

      2015 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @barro said...

    I UNDERSTAND it is winnings and not profit but you are guys really poo pooing 10 Million in winnings?
    The article states and I quote:
    “in fact, the top 11 players on average paid $2 million in entry fees and made $135,000 in profit while accounting for 17 percent of all entry fees.”

    That means DK staff has quivilent of average of 5 of the top 11 players working in their office.
    So maybe they only grossed 600k-1 million all combined but they are still pulling a significant amount of cash.
    I did a quick google search that stated DK had 80 employees around 10 months ago. so lets make it an even 100. One cant assume all 100 play on FD and even if they did for the staff to average 100k in winning a year is alot per person. that mean if you’re profitting 25% you’re playing $80000 or over $1500 a week which is a lot if you consider not everyone plays every sport and you’re assuming every single staff member is playing.

    What say you now?

    Ok so let’s say they are all winning. So what? You can’t cheat to win in dfs. And people who work in the industry, like I wanted to a while ago, are good at dfs cuz it is their passion anyway.

  • gridironguru99

    @Ryazan said...

    Ok so let’s say they are all winning. So what? You can’t cheat to win in dfs. And people who work in the industry, like I wanted to a while ago, are good at dfs cuz it is their passion anyway.

    It’s their passion and that small bit about having access to ownership information and trends amongst how the pro’s play ti on their sites and then the employee leverages that on the competitor sites. Just that small bit.

    The poster who commented on the poor management of these companies is dead on. Young, Naive and they took the greedy approach and mass marketed and tried to get as fat as possible and its all going to blow up. You can complain about the “negative press” but this whole thing is a house of cards and it’s all true – there’s likely so much more we don’t know yet or might not get a chance to hear.

    The NV rulin sets the stage for other states – this is happening quick and I cant see DFS as it exists now existing by Spring 2016.

  • barro

    @Ryazan said...

    Ok so let’s say they are all winning. So what? You can’t cheat to win in dfs. And people who work in the industry, like I wanted to a while ago, are good at dfs cuz it is their passion anyway.

    If they can see trends then they can see specific peoples picks. So if they see that I pick certain players in my H2H on DK they can make a safe assumption and hedge off of that to play H2H games against me on FD.
    it’s not so far fetched.

  • bobbyrogers46

    The greed of these 2 sites,…. remeber Draftstreet, they self reg6lated 3 entries per gpp. DraftDay seems to be run well along with the Canadian company FantasyFeud.

  • bobbyrogers46

    Why do u guys engage Ryazan, he has FD and DK blinders on full bright. He cannot see the forest. Folks like a Putz, whits, buffalo66 and myself have been pushing warnings to all of these sites for years. They choose to chase that rake and ignore the suggestions and this is the results.

  • dude_abides7

    @bobbyrogers46 said...

    Why do u guys engage Ryazan, he has FD and DK blinders on full bright. He cannot see the forest. Folks like a Putz, whits, buffalo66 and myself have been pushing warnings to all of these sites for years. They choose to chase that rake and ignore the suggestions and this is the results.

    Chasing the rake strategy (which I agree was the paradigm they were using) was so short sighted. It is like kids at an Easter egg hunt trying to scoop up as many eggs as they can. A few of the kids start pushing other kids out of the way and the parents step in, shut down the party and make them go inside.

    There was so much money to go around, but they wanted it all…they wanted it now. Greed.

    We “needed” to have $2mil – 1st place jackpots, which means we “needed” to have multi-entry, which means we “needed” to have scripts to facilitate the multi-entry and anyone who said their strategy was flawed “needed” to take off their tinfoil hat and build better lineups. Smh.

  • AndThisGuyPeedOnIt

    Funniest thing about this? Fanduel’s splash pages still have “AS FEATURED IN THE NEW YORK TIMES AND WALL STREET JOURNAL” all over them.

  • rayofhope

    • 2017 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    @barro said...

    I UNDERSTAND it is winnings and not profit but you are guys really poo pooing 10 Million in winnings?
    The article states and I quote:
    “in fact, the top 11 players on average paid $2 million in entry fees and made $135,000 in profit while accounting for 17 percent of all entry fees.”

    That means DK staff has quivilent of average of 5 of the top 11 players working in their office.
    So maybe they only grossed 600k-1 million all combined but they are still pulling a significant amount of cash.
    I did a quick google search that stated DK had 80 employees around 10 months ago. so lets make it an even 100. One cant assume all 100 play on FD and even if they did for the staff to average 100k in winning a year is alot per person. that mean if you’re profitting 25% you’re playing $80000 or over $1500 a week which is a lot if you consider not everyone plays every sport and you’re assuming every single staff member is playing.

    What say you now?

    DK employees were not profiting 10M a year, or 135k a year on average. That top 11 players stat is not talking about employees, and is also using seriously flawed data set. dont just quote things at random.

    the whole source of that first stat you referenced is Justine Sacco said DK employees accounted for 0.3% of winnings (i.e. gross cashes). FD has stated they expect to do 2B in payouts.. so that is $6M in cashes for DK Employees (that got turned into 10M to cover the maximum range, 6M gonna be much closer)

    If you say they had 40 employees that played..that’s 150k a year in cashes.. of 135-160k in buyins per employee on average depending on if they were winners/losers (we know they had a couple of solid winners like ethan/mirage but whose to say how the rest did). If they each played two sports (i assume all play nfl, and probably one of the others) that would be ~$500 a day in buyins. Not really a big deal at all. There are some that are considerably above that average allowing for most to be well below. Not to mention 40 might be a conservative estimate of # of employees that played.

    Chill out (on this specific issue, at least).

  • TwoSHAE

    This multi-entry thing has been explained ad nauseum. It is unreal there are still people who do not understand. Let me spell it out for you as clearly as possible:

    The average player is losing because the site takes a rake. It doesn’t matter if the average player enters 1 or 500 lineups — he is still losing. He would just lose more as he enters more lineups.

    Therefore, someone entering 500x and winning money is a skilled player, as he is able to overcome the rake and still have some profit to show for it. If he was not a skilled player, and was an average or below average player, he would lose money the more lineups he entered.

    There are probably plenty of low-mid stakes players out there who could make a lot more money if they had bigger bankrolls, which would afford them the opportunity to enter more lineups and therefore take on more risk. Deal with it — grow your bankroll and prove it — just like the guys who are at the top did.

    I think in general there is a big misunderstanding about (1) EV of a specific entry, (2) average EV (across all entries), (3) total EV (of all entries), and (4) combinations. So:

    (1) If we look at the EV of entry 1 in a GPP vs the EV of entry 500, one would expect the EV of entry 500 to be significantly less. That is, EV(n), where n is the nth entry in a GPP, is decreasing as n increases.

    (2) As a result of (1), average EV also decreases as number of entries increases

    (3) For a highly skilled player, we should expect that his 500th entry is still +EV. Therefore, total EV is increasing as n increases, but it’s increasing at a decreasing rate.

    (4) The notion that you can “play every combination” is laughable. The number of combinations, even logical ones (using most of the salary cap, not taking too many guys from one team), is way way way more than 500 even among a relatively tight core of players. The number is especially large on DK with the flex spot. Even if you had a tight enough core to have < 500 logical combinations, there would still be a great amount of skill in selecting the right players. All it takes is missing one guy and you have very little chance (Doug Martin last week, Cairo Santos the week before).

    Additionally, having just one guy in your core have an average or below average game will sink most of your lineups. If you think you are so good that you can pick a relatively tight core and have 0 guys bust, I recommend you throw as much money together as you can, and play cash games.

  • hbbomaha

    @TwoSHAE said...

    (3) For a highly skilled player, we should expect that his 500th entry is still +EV. Therefore, total EV is increasing as n increases, but it’s increasing at a decreasing rate.

    This one. It’s why people do it. More is more, even when more is less more than the more before.πŸ˜•

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