NHL FORUM

Comments

  • pokerrob1970

    DraftDay BLB Finalist

    So it’s once again time for the annual what are sites doing with their NHL product this year thread. FD has talked about either removing or at worst reducing the value of +/- along with the removal of positive points for penalties. As of right now they appear to be the same as last year. On DK they made a roster change in MLB that limited people to a max of 5 batters in a lineup. Is that going into effect in NHL as well? (no more than 5 skaters per team)

  • zshoom

    • 2016 Single Entry Series Finalist

    I hope they replace PIM’s with a shorthanded point bonus and keep plus minus. Wouldn’t mind if it’s lowered to a half point or quarter point though.

  • dude_abides7

    @maddysdaddy0914 said...

    So I understand, PIMS are an outlier stat, but plus minus is not?

    Outlier in the sense that +/- can be gauged and somewhat predicted by looking at match-ups and what have you.

    A guy getting a 5 min major for high-sticking is not predictable.

  • zshoom

    • 2016 Single Entry Series Finalist

    @maddysdaddy0914 said...

    So I understand, PIMS are an outlier stat, but plus minus is not?

    Plus minus is very quickly becoming obsolete. In terms of player effectiveness it is virtually irrelevant.
    If is almost entirely random. You can have a player with a 3 or 4 point night end up -2 in 5-2 game and have him literally do nothing wrong to deserve a – or a +.

    At least with PIM’s it adds some value to players who would otherwise have none in DFS.

    Plus minus is useless when it comes to evaluating a players individual performance, but it is not an outlier stat. It is a direct result of the games outcome, and is therefore predictable (or at least as predictable as hockey stats can be).

    If a player had a 3 or 4 point night and was minus 2 in a 5-2 game….he had a good night on the PP and his line got owned even strength. Whether he personally had any fault in this is irrelevant.

    Empty net plus minus sucks though.

  • RJMcGinley

    will there be any preseason contests on either site?

  • BIF

    Good discussion, I only play on DK so didn’t know points for PIM were a thing on FD – seems counter productive like giving points to an NFL D for penalties on 3rd D extending the opponent’s drive.

    I don’t think I like full point +/- as (PPG’s aside) it is giving more points to the guys getting the goal and assists but it is a nice way to reward the guy who got the virtual 3rd assist that may have actually did the work in setting up the play but an extra touch due to a tip or rebound costs him the 2nd assist. I think the half or quarter point is the right way to do it.

    I like DK’s current product but could live with partial point +/- to help increase scoring and possibly reduce the number of ties on small slates.

  • pokerrob1970

    DraftDay BLB Finalist

    @mberkowi said...

    I didn’t think a scoring setup would keep me away from a site, but you’ve found it.

    I didn’t mind it on Star Street back in the day. The good was that it really opened up the usable player pool. Suddenly defensive forwards and stay at home D that played a lot of mins became relevant. The actual sport is more than just shots, goals and apples. I have no problem doing the extra research if they wanted to go that route. The bad was at the time those stats where still highly flawed in terms of being accurately counted as you went from rink to rink.

  • Zieg30

    • 615

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @pokerrob1970 said...

    I didn’t mind it on Star Street back in the day. The good was that it really opened up the usable player pool. Suddenly defensive forwards and stay at home D that played a lot of mins became relevant. The actual sport is more than just shots, goals and apples. I have no problem doing the extra research if they wanted to go that route. The bad was at the time those stats where still highly flawed in terms of being accurately counted as you went from rink to rink.

    I think we have a solid scoring structure in DK, so wouldn’t mind if FD tried something fresh and/or zany.

    God knows they’ve ruined their MLB product between this year and the last, I’d like to have something interesting to try on their site.

  • wisertime

    @mberkowi said...

    I didn’t think a scoring setup would keep me away from a site, but you’ve found it.

    I agree. I wouldnt have any patience in trying to figure out players with the most hits. I think hits is a stupid stat. I am not a fan of block shots either. On FD, I would up the points awarded for goals. I would make goals 4pts and keep assists 2pts.

  • newynewstrom

    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    I’m hoping Fanduel gets rid of PIM. I’m still bitter about a night I was sitting in the top 5 then Getzlaf tries to ice the puck in the last minute and ends up shooting it all the way down the ice at the net, but over the glass. Delay of game penalty and I finish around 15-20th

  • pokerrob1970

    DraftDay BLB Finalist

    @Zieg30 said...

    I think we have a solid scoring structure in DK, so wouldn’t mind if FD tried something fresh and/or zany.

    God knows they’ve ruined their MLB product between this year and the last, I’d like to have something interesting to try on their site.

    I have no real issues with the scoring on DK other than the bonus for hat tricks. What i don’t like is the 6 player stacking.

    As for other scoring metrics i would also like to see how adding points for faceoffs W/L would look. Something along the lines of +.25 for a win and -.25 for a loss. Maybe +0.25 for take aways and -0.25 for give aways could work and are easily researched. Adding more metrics makes the follow a little more interesting (see NBA) and the people that do the research are still gonna be the ones that win.

    Another idea might be a +1 pt shutout bonus for defensemen that play at least 20 mins in a game that their team does not give up a goal in. Kinda in the same vein as what DK does for its soccer product.

    Anyway just spitballing some concepts that could make the game more interesting for casual players that are used to seeing points accumulate quickly in other DFS sports they play and feel bored following the hockey product.

  • maxeernst

    @pokerrob1970 said...

    I have no real issues with the scoring on DK other than the bonus for hat tricks. What i don’t like is the 6 player stacking.

    How can you not like this?

    Anyone who stacks 6 players from the same team is losing money with that strategy.

  • lasimmon

    @pokerrob1970 said...

    I have no real issues with the scoring on DK other than the bonus for hat tricks. What i don’t like is the 6 player stacking.

    As for other scoring metrics i would also like to see how adding points for faceoffs W/L would look. Something along the lines of +.25 for a win and -.25 for a loss. Maybe +0.25 for take aways and -0.25 for give aways could work and are easily researched. Adding more metrics makes the follow a little more interesting (see NBA) and the people that do the research are still gonna be the ones that win.

    Another idea might be a +1 pt shutout bonus for defensemen that play at least 20 mins in a game that their team does not give up a goal in. Kinda in the same vein as what DK does for its soccer product.

    Anyway just spitballing some concepts that could make the game more interesting for casual players that are used to seeing points accumulate quickly in other DFS sports they play and feel bored following the hockey product.

    I’d have issues with things like takeaways and give aways as from rink to rink the stats are done differently.

  • Heterodox

    @maxeernst said...

    How can you not like this?

    Anyone who stacks 6 players from the same team is losing money with that strategy.

    edit

  • Heterodox

    @maxeernst said...

    How can you not like this?

    Anyone who stacks 6 players from the same team is losing money with that strategy.

    Last year DK had its “Flying V” contest, one of the bigger NHL contests of the season. I had what seemed like a good night, with maybe 10 or 12 entries for $40-$50 I think I cleared $125 profit. My best lineup finished around 120.
    That night, Anaheim came to Boston and scored 6 goals. West coast team traveling east, Boston at that point still having a reputation as a team you didn’t want to target against with Tuuka and their defensive orientation (I think LA put the final nail in that coffin when they came here a week later and put 7 on them, but sharp players had probably already figured out how soft the Bruins were). I was all over it, they were so low-owned, and my second team was Winnipeg who also went off that night (Elhers hat trick), yet I topped out around 120th. I remember rooting for a Silfverberg empty-netter at the end of that game – he was on the ice, had the puck several times, would have been the difference between $125 and $6K. He didn’t get it, but I digress.
    It was tempting to enjoy that result. Even getting close, when you don’t play many lineups, feels like a win, but in reality it’s an absolute killer, because it won’t happen often enough, you won’t get enough chances, you need your best lineups to break through. That was my big win, and I missed out. Why? Because I had all these goofy 5 and 6 player Anaheim stacks, 3 from one line, 2 from another, power play mixes, that kind of thing, then I was mixing in Winnipeg players in whatever spots were left. I ended up with Ehlers in only one lineup, even though he was one of my top players of the night. If I had just focused on stacking one line from Anaheim with one line from Winnipeg, over 10 or 12 lineups, I’d have absolutely hit the right combo. All of my research was good that night, bolstered by my intuitive knowledge that the Bruins were going to get crushed, but my roster construction sucked, and you know what? It was pure laziness. I didn’t need differentiation, ANA was super low-owned (Winnipeg, if I remember correctly, was chalk.) In hindsight, I just didn’t want to do the work of figuring out how to fit players in, choosing which lines to emphasize, etc.
    So, the point here is yes, we should like that lazy players and people who get too fancy can screw themselves. Let them learn the hard way, like I did. By the end of the season the lesson had sunk in, I was just doing straight up line stacks, sometimes 4-3, sometimes 3-3, and when my lineups hit I was hitting the top 10 or top 20 instead of topping out at a nice but disappointing level.
    I should note, though, that I believe a 6-player LA stack would have won everything when they scored 7 in Boston a week later. Such a kick in the teeth, like the universe just taunting me, but still, those nights are too rare to chase.

  • Heterodox

    @maxeernst said...

    How can you not like this?

    Anyone who stacks 6 players from the same team is losing money with that strategy.

    Not letting me quote posts

    @maxeernst said…

    How can you not like this?
    Anyone who stacks 6 players from the same team is losing money with that strategy.

  • pokerrob1970

    DraftDay BLB Finalist

    Great response Heterodox, I had really stayed away from DK last year after only playing there since they opened. It seemed that Bleepimajeep and whoever 3putts is over there were regularly winning with their 100+ 6 man stacks. Plus i was ticked off that they went from 2 utility spots down to 1.

  • KindGuy

    @pokerrob1970 said...

    Great response Heterodox, I had really stayed away from DK last year after only playing there since they opened. It seemed that Bleepimajeep and whoever 3putts is over there were regularly winning with their 100+ 6 man stacks. Plus i was ticked off that they went from 2 utility spots down to 1.

    So are full stacks in hockey +ev or -ev? I’m gonna try and do more of hockey this year but if sharks are mass entering stacks like in MLB, then I might stay away……..

  • Olhausen

    @dude_abides7 said...

    I’d be perfectly fine with .25 as well! I just like how +/- disallowed the ability for some guy with 300 lineups stacking both sides of the same game.

    Well now you don’t have to worry about guys doing 300 lineup’s because the limit is now 150.

    Edit: This is the second time I have tried to quote someone and it ended up not showing the persons post who I was trying to quote. I’ve noticed other people having the same problem so RG staff might want to check that out.

  • dude_abides7

    @elementasrat said...

    So are full stacks in hockey +ev or -ev? I’m gonna try and do more of hockey this year but if sharks are mass entering stacks like in MLB, then I might stay away……..

    I’d say they are +EV in GPP but you can make the case that they are -EV in cash. For cash 2 player stacks allow you to get exposure to more games so you are not overexposed.

    EDIT: Same here….quote is not working.

  • Olhausen

    I’ve had success with both full 6 man stacks and 4-3 stacks. I especially had success with full 6 man stacks in the beginning of the season and I had no clue what I was doing at that point. I think I’m going to start the season off again with full 6 man stacks and see where that takes me. I mean maybe since the goalies pads are going to be smaller there will be more scoring and that will make 6 man stacks more valuable. I don’t know though, what does everyone else think?

  • KindGuy

    @Olhausen said...

    I’ve had success with both full 6 man stacks and 4-3 stacks. I especially had success with full 6 man stacks in the beginning of the season and I had no clue what I was doing at that point. I think I’m going to start the season off again with full 6 man stacks and see where that takes me. I mean maybe since the goalies pads are going to be smaller there will be more scoring and that will make 6 man stacks more valuable. I don’t know though, what does everyone else think?

    So in other words, DFS NHL has nothing to do with skill…..

  • maxeernst

    @elementasrat said...

    So in other words, DFS NHL has nothing to do with skill…..

    I don’t have the data in front of me to crunch the numbers, but I can say with a high degree of confidence that 6 man stacks aren’t optimal in GPPs. Sure, they may win some money on nights where the team you stacked scores 7 or 8 goals (extremely rare) and the other teams don’t do much, but I’m confident they are a losing proposition in the long run.

    Regarding cash games, if you plan on playing 6 man stacks please play them against me.

  • maxeernst

    Also, I don’t think I’ve ever seen 3putts / slewfoot play 6 guys from the same team.

  • snapped

    I think playing 6 guys from same team works if you are doing it over multi entries and actually just doing it in groups of 5 (4 plus Goalie) and leaving one out on every entry. You don’t need the team to score 7-8 goals (obv extremely rare in hockey). With winning hockey scores being relatively low compared to other DFS sports you need the line you stack to have 2-4 goals with the assists to go along with. Also, going with groups of 6 in a single line up cuts down on the coverage/exposure of the line from another team you may choose to complement it with or could cost you a nice one-off. I like the idea of going with a core of 4 from a particular line, along with the goalie for 5, and leaving out the chalkiest player. It may not be the most optimal strategy to play 5 + Goalie to make 6, but on any given night it can work and will always be super high variance. Just depends on how much variance one can stomach. Level of risk aversion that one is ok with is something that varies greatly from person to person.

  • choppadown

    I think my “winningest” lineup’s last year were stacking either an entire line, and some top scorers from other games, or stacking a PP1 unit and mixing in other guys.

    It was getting pretty mind numbing near the end of the season getting stomped by the multi entry guys though.

  • X Unread Thread
  • X Thread with New Replies*
  • *Jumps to your first unread reply

Subforum Index

RotoGrinders.com is the home of the daily fantasy sports community. Our content, rankings, member blogs, promotions and forum discussion all cater to the players that like to create a new fantasy team every day of the week.

If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL). Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER (NJ/WV/PA/MI), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (CO), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), 1-888-532-3500 (VA) or call/text TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN).