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  • killab2482

    • 2018 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    • x2

      2013 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    I’ve noticed both FanDuel and DraftKings bumping up their rake for certain leagues. It’s happening even in qualifiers where contestants would be double raked if they won their Q. Can one of the programming geniuses here at RG make a tool/browser extension that will easily clarify what rake equals for each specific game? It can be a color-coded system that breaks up rake into multiple categories (green-6-9%, yellow 10-12%, red 13=+%). This industry is going from bad to worse by the minute for the player. Only way to fight this is to be better consumers and to be more informed on where our $$ is going. It’s becoming ridiculous on how high some of these raked contests are getting. Only one winner in the long run if they keep squeezing us this badly….

  • dfskehd

    These are margins though Smizz. To raise gross profit they should increase revenue by growing the customer base, or increase customer value by increasing entry fees per customer, not by slowly extracting more from the prize pools.

  • crimsonrain

    any chance for a DK version?

  • whits23

    2010 FFFC Finalist, 2010 DFBC Finalist, 2011 FFFC Finalist, 2014 DSBC Finalist

    • x2

      2010 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • 2011 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    Knowing the rake certainly helps you decide what games to play or not play..of course you could do the math but its ever changing and the numbers are not rounded off enough for us non common core students.

    Anything that helps the players should be a plus..seems like we have too many site advocates on the wrong side of the fence at times in discussions.

  • dfskehd

    yeah i can add DK to this version. Their lobby text formats just take more parsing conditions. Ill do it tonight or tomorrow this week.

    Or I can add some ‘current overlay’ info for FD and do DK later??

    Also wondering if people want to filter by color code.

  • JBigg23

    @whits23 said...

    Knowing the rake certainly helps you decide what games to play or not play..of course you could do the math but its ever changing and the numbers are not rounded off enough for us non common core students.

    Anything that helps the players should be a plus..seems like we have too many site advocates on the wrong side of the fence at times in discussions.

    There are people on the wrong people of the fence everywhere, most particularly in these forums.

  • SteveAvery

    @alsmizzle said...

    Groceries and electricity also cost more than they did before for the same reasons. It’s as simple as some people have mentioned. If you don’t like the rake in a certain contest, vote with your wallet and don’t play in those contests. If when people want the answer to be, “But I REALLY want to play that contest and the sites should tailor it to me and my likes/dislikes” that’s where it starts to get funny (at least to me.

    This is great, thank you!

    Edit: Didn’t mean to quote Al’s text. Thanks a lot for the extension though, very useful

  • stoptheinsanity

    @alsmizzle said...

    Groceries and electricity also cost more than they did before for the same reasons. It’s as simple as some people have mentioned. If you don’t like the rake in a certain contest, vote with your wallet and don’t play in those contests. If when people want the answer to be, “But I REALLY want to play that contest and the sites should tailor it to me and my likes/dislikes” that’s where it starts to get funny (at least to me.

    You can’t honestly believe that rake goes up for the same reason as groceries. Groceries go up to keep the percentage of profit the same. Rake goes up to increase the percentage of the profit. If anything it is the exact opposite. Groceries will also continue to go up in price. If Rake continues to go up it maxes out at 100%. Groceries won’t max out. Increasing the price of entry fees would be the comparison. But I know you are a pretty freaking intelligent guy and knew that before posting.

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 789

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    People seem to forget that there is currently not one single site that’s operating in the black.

    I am now and have always been an advocate for the players, but at the same time the players need to understand that if hey don’t like something they need to speak with their dollars. If the games keep filling with higher and higher rake then you can’t logically expect the rake % to come down.

  • dfskehd

    We can all agree on that.

  • SteveAvery

    @alsmizzle said...

    People seem to forget that there is currently not one single site that’s operating in the black.

    I am now and have always been an advocate for the players, but at the same time the players need to understand that if hey don’t like something they need to speak with their dollars. If the games keep filling with higher and higher rake then you can’t logically expect the rake % to come down.

    I mostly agree with this but there also needs to be a long-term view and sometimes maxing out profits in the short-term can have devastating affects long-term – countless businesses have gone under with this practice.

    I’m not saying this is an absolute case with DFS but I do believe higher rake negatively effects the future of DFS, particularly when it’s already very high compared to other forms of “gambling”. To what extent I’m not sure, I think it’s an extremely complicated subject.

    The bottom line as you stated is people need to voice their opinions through their wallets. That’s the one piece of this that players have control over at an individual level.

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 789

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    @SteveAvery said...

    The bottom line as you stated is people need to voice their opinions through their wallets. That’s the one piece of this that players have control over at an individual level.

    I mean, a site came out with zero rake…it’s not like people are flocking there to play. You go where the action is and sometimes that’s going to have a price.

    I’d love a normalized rake structure but I understand the sites need to generate enough money to be viable in this growth period and hope that once their infrastructure build and ad spend normalizes then the rake will as well. We shall see.

  • dfskehd

    back to original topic of a color coding extension, what’s your take on red, yellow, green rake percentages? I think the extension is too harsh currently, and that less than 10% should be green. Or should it be configurable in settings?

    Whoops typo = 91% rake! http://i.imgur.com/ZA7WI66.png

  • crimsonrain

    Will Download as soon as DK is finished, but don’t worry about it done, whenever you have time!

  • bripc23

    2013 PFBC Finalist

    @stoptheinsanity said...

    You can’t honestly believe that rake goes up for the same reason as groceries. Groceries go up to keep the percentage of profit the same. Rake goes up to increase the percentage of the profit. If anything it is the exact opposite. Groceries will also continue to go up in price. If Rake continues to go up it maxes out at 100%. Groceries won’t max out. Increasing the price of entry fees would be the comparison. But I know you are a pretty freaking intelligent guy and knew that before posting.

    I believe that everything is dictated by the same forces – supply and demand

  • dfskehd

    DK in progress… their technologies are very different. It’ll probably end up as a second extension

    see below

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 789

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    @bripc23 said...

    I believe that everything is dictated by the same forces – supply and demand

    yup. 100% this.

  • dfskehd

    Alright version 1 of the DK extension is up! It works in the same way as the FD ext. it will only appear when you’re on DK and you’ll have to close the tab (not just refresh) to get the colors to go away.

    https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/dk-rake-colorator/ebdbkhkcpgibpfagfaomhhfeonkogdpe

    RG Admin NoteThanks to @dfskehd for this! Please note that browser extensions can sometimes be used for malicious purposes (like phishing for your login credentials or auto-entering contests for you), so as is always the case with things like this, it’s important that you trust trust the source it is coming from.

    Even though we are leaving the link to this extension available, RotoGrinders does not vouch for its development or security, and you take full responsibility for any losses or damages incurred through the use of this extension. We may add these features to our existing FD extension in the future for anyone who might feel more comfortable downloading an RG-approved extension.

  • SteveAvery

    @alsmizzle said...

    I mean, a site came out with zero rake…it’s not like people are flocking there to play. You go where the action is and sometimes that’s going to have a price.

    I’d love a normalized rake structure but I understand the sites need to generate enough money to be viable in this growth period and hope that once their infrastructure build and ad spend normalizes then the rake will as well. We shall see.

    I guess I just don’t have as much faith as most people that rake will normalize at some point especially when it comes to FD. But that’s just my opinion which is more based on intuition/sense than anything I can concretely point to.

    There was a rake-free poker site as well in the middle of the poker boom (WSEX) and nobody played there – ultimately they went under and couldn’t pay their customers. So you’ve got a good point. For the vast majority of people, rake doesn’t seem to be a priority.

  • SteveAvery

    @dfskehd said...

    Alright version 1 of the DK extension is up! It works in the same way as the FD ext. it will only appear when you’re on DK and you’ll have to close the tab (not just refresh) to get the colors to go away.

    https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/dk-rake-colorator/ebdbkhkcpgibpfagfaomhhfeonkogdpe

    Thanks so much for this!

  • yaleg34

    @SteveAvery said...

    I guess I just don’t have as much faith as most people that rake will normalize at some point especially when it comes to FD. But that’s just my opinion which is more based on intuition/sense than anything I can concretely point to.

    There was a rake-free poker site as well in the middle of the poker boom (WSEX) and nobody played there – ultimately they went under and couldn’t pay their customers. So you’ve got a good point. For the vast majority of people, rake doesn’t seem to be a priority.

    Agreed rake wont normalize at some point, its not logical and its not in the interest of the operators

  • Troll4MVP

    • 30

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #25

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • 2014 DraftKings FFWC Champion

    @dfskehd said...

    Alright version 1 of the DK extension is up! It works in the same way as the FD ext. it will only appear when you’re on DK and you’ll have to close the tab (not just refresh) to get the colors to go away.

    https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/dk-rake-colorator/ebdbkhkcpgibpfagfaomhhfeonkogdpe

    RG Admin NoteThanks to @dfskehd for this! Please note that browser extensions can sometimes be used for malicious purposes (like phishing for your login credentials or auto-entering contests for you), so as is always the case with things like this, it’s important that you trust trust the source it is coming from.

    Even though we are leaving the link to this extension available, RotoGrinders does not vouch for its development or security, and you take full responsibility for any losses or damages incurred through the use of this extension. We may add these features to our existing FD extension in the future for anyone who might feel more comfortable downloading an RG-approved extension.

    Good stuff dude, thanks!

  • colinwdrew

    • 258

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2020 DraftKings FHWC Champion

    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    These are interesting topics, I like to think about it from the sites perspective, since the players is easy (lower the rake!). If games are filling at a high rake, the short term perspective is easy, keep a high rake and have stronger cash flow. This is especially important if funding isn’t easy to access and/or investors are pressing you to show profitability as soon as possible.

    The longer term perspective is more complicated. Presumably if you are a losing player and get cleaned out in 1 week or month, you may not re-deposit. But if your initial buy-in can carry you through 3 or 6 months of entertainment, you will get to know the game better, have seen some success and may be comfortable re-depositing. If I hadn’t lucked into a GPP week 2 in 2013, I wouldn’t have had the run way I did to learn the game and may not have stuck around to get to where I am now. So first, I believe lower rake may keep players around longer and have a higher likelihood of redepositing. I’m sure the sites have data on likelihood of re-depositing if you lose in 0-3, 3-6, 6 plus months. I definitively believe all Beginner games on DK should be rake free.

    Second, is the game of skill factor. The top players, Condia, CSUs, Smiz, KillaBs of the world are the linchpin of the skill-based gaming argument. As long as a chunk of your top players can consistently make money on a monthly, annual basis, it is easy to point to it as a game of skill with the data. If the rake ever increased to a point this wasn’t possible, it would be harder to sell.

    Browser extension is great, but if we’re being honest and DK is raking a tourney for 10% and FD 8%, it probably isn’t impacting my play much as the prize pool itself does.

  • kinggeorge

    dfskehd, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Is there any hope for a Firefox extension?

    I’ll be looking forward to firing this up today, I’m curious to look at the various numbers at a glance.

  • mke272

    @alsmizzle said...

    I’d love a normalized rake structure but I understand the sites need to generate enough money to be viable in this growth period and hope that once their infrastructure build and ad spend normalizes then the rake will as well. We shall see

    Al, have you asked DraftKings about why they don’t offer a standardized rake structure? If not, why do you think they don’t?

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 789

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    @mke272 said...

    Al, have you asked DraftKings about why they don’t offer a standardized rake structure? If not, why do you think they don’t?

    I’m not involved on the business side of things at all and I haven’t asked, but as a business man I have my hypotheses some of which I’ve already expressed. They haven’t raised the rake on h2h and the single entry h2h games, they’re still on the 10%-6% scale that they seem to always have been, but as the GPP size goes up so does the risk on behalf of the sites. They take on more risk because if it doesn’t fill (and we’ve seen overlay more than a few times in the past year) they now incur six figure losses on that single tournament instead of just a couple thousand. So I’m sure that if they feel a tournament will get past the break even point and possibly fill they need to maximize their profits on that offering.

    From a players point of view, this is why I hate when tournaments fill super early. I don’t like the rake increases in the larger tournaments, no player does, but I understand them from a supply/demand stand point (if people keep playing them and they keep selling out why in the world should the site change the rake structure?). But if we’re going to be tied into paying the increased rake on these larger GPP’s on a daily basis, we need to demand that the sites size them so that they’re not filling until the final hour before tip off otherwise we’re leaving money on the table.

    Winning tournaments is really hard, staying profitable as a GPP player is even tougher with the increased runners and rake, but if you’re not winning as much as you can when you have a breakthrough because a tournament was routinely sized incorrectly then you’re going to REALLY regret it when you hit a cold streak.

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