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  • SelfCharmer

    Hi,

    Just wanted to get some people’s thoughts on how to build the Soccer community. I think that certain threads get a lot of good discussion, but too often we see dead threads/slates with no discussion etc. Even other small sports get more discussion than Soccer, and overall if we can build the soccer community on here and other sites, that could lead to people from other sports trying out Soccer, which could lead to an increase in GPPs and the player pool, which is good for everybody!

    This is all obvious but a growth in the soccer community is something I would love to see. As a result, i have decided to start a weekly blog on RG 1st one here

    I am going to try and give a small recap of each week – how I performed and the slates went etc. along with anything I find interesting in Soccer that week.

    I spoke to SirRobert previously about maybe starting a community tournament/league situation and hopefully this gets some traction as well. I know there is now some Premium Soccer content on RG so maybe that will help attract new players also (Thanks to Hambazaza)

    Does anyone else have any ideas they would be willing to implement etc that could help grow the DFS Soccer pool?

    Thanks!

  • hambazaza

    RG Blog Program Manager, 2014 RG Party Beer Pong Champion

    • Blogger of the Month

    • Beer Pong Champion

    i think with FD adding soccer in the US, soccer DFS should continue to grow. It really comes down to how easy it is for a casual player to build a lineup and enter the games. We have a problem with 10am starts on Saturday in east coast and 7am starts in west coast. That means people have to get up at 6am for lineups in some cases. That will already limit some players who wont take the time. It also means that preparation for the games has to happen earlier than the day of the games, which means content has to be ready early, and that’s part of what I’ve been working on. More content to make things easier for people, and earlier content to give the casual fans time to digest the information and learn about the week’s slate

    Having a community league would be great.

    I think Soccer is the best sweat for any sport, you build your lineup, then ALL the games happen at the same time and then you get paid out within 2-4 hours. It’s great if you love the rush. A single goal can turn you from winning several thousand dollars to barely breaking even.

    The DK setup is the ultimate GPP setup, one goal and you’re in first, another goal and you’re out of the money. The FD model looks to be more spread out making goals important, but not decisive and a major part of your success. You can have a good day if you select players who do all the right things, but just don’t finish. Also, the FD model allows more players to come into play, so now central defenders and defensive midfielders are in the conversation in my lineups, that makes the game smarter, and more cash-friendly.

    I think people will come around to it, with more soccer content, more people will feel comfortable throwing an entry or two in, and with more of those 1-2 lineup guys entering, the bigger the tournaments, which will attract the big $$ players to join in, then soccer will start to grow organically.

    The conversation here will definitely help, and your blog (which I read this morning) was great! I hope you keep it up!

  • SelfCharmer

    Yeah the contest times are a bit limiting to the growth of Soccer outside of Europe – I feel this is another reason DK removed late swap on NBA, as there was no feasible way anyone in the UK could ever late swap guys (as they wouldn’t know until 3am…)

    However, I do feel that the Lineups are a lot more static in Soccer than other sports – especially in EPL or latter stages of the UCL/UEL. It is not out of the question to be able to set your LUs the night before and then just a quick check an hour before lock – unlike NFL/NBA where things change very last minute etc.

    I am yet to play on FD, I have looked at some contests etc but without being able to download salaries etc I have decided to play solely on DK for the time being – I think it is super important that new players (or players building a roll) to really get to know the ins and outs of a site before they add another – it is deceptively hard to build consistently solid LUs across multiple sites – if they merge with the US then I will no doubt jump on in, but for now the prize pools are small enough to warrant DK focus.

    Thanks for the blog comments!

  • 3rdDFS

    • 37

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #30

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x2

      2014 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • 2018 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    I think a more simplistic game (DK scoring) is overall in the best interest of the industry. Also pushing champions league (better start times) would help. Like the direction it’s going.

  • mallotc93

    Trying to get yanks to like football.. since for ever
    I’m Irish so I don’t need any convincing
    been lurking on these threads praying for sum soccer discussion
    It was good this time last year
    other sports are intervening
    footy best sport in world and reason I’m in the US now

  • hambazaza

    RG Blog Program Manager, 2014 RG Party Beer Pong Champion

    • Blogger of the Month

    • Beer Pong Champion

    @3rdDFS said...

    I think a more simplistic game (DK scoring) is overall in the best interest of the industry. Also pushing champions league (better start times) would help. Like the direction it’s going.

    agree, a more simplistic game will drive numbers. but the problem happens when you get too many people who realize that if they didn’t have Alvaro Negredo when he scores a brace and thats why they lost, they’ll get turned off, having a system that rewards actual soccer performance IMO is the best of both worlds, maybe FD is too complex? I dont know, but it seems to me it favors players in good offensive systems.

  • SelfCharmer

    To be honest, i think the current DK scoring and 8 man roster construction (with M/F eligible players) is the best on offer. The activities that generate points are very easily to follow along with, the reduction in points for a cross has balanced the scoring and overall I think there is very little to improve upon. It mimics relatively closely season long EPL games (by the fact that defenders are not as valuable for points, unless they have attacking threat or CS chances)

    Obviously any new companies entering the market is good for players – as this will drive competition between the companies – hopefully making the products better.

    On the point of start time – I completely agree, and hope that by the time we get to the important part of the UCL/UEL competitions, they really market it and drive for more players – as this is where you are most likely to get US players involved. The games all start at the same time (a time great for US players), the games mean more to the clubs so there is little rotation in Lineups (good for casuals) and the knockout nature means the games are generally more exciting to watch.

  • Yeoman

    Is the goal to draw DFSers to soccer, or to draw soccer fans to DFS?

    If it’s the former I can see why DK’s simplified scoring system and exciting sweat might be a benefit. But as a soccer fan I can say that I much prefer the more nuanced systems at Y and FD. I like having the whole lineup in play instead of just picking among the star forwards and set-piece takers.

    If Y would offer something beyond EPL, that’s where I’d play. (Lack of late swap is a deal killer, for me, when a slate is staggered.)

  • SelfCharmer

    I think the first market to go for is getting DFSers into Soccer. In the UK obviously soccer is huge here, but with legalised gambling and some pretty poor marketing strategies, DFS doesn’t stand a chance at the moment. I am the only person out of my group of friends who even knows what DFS is. They all play the season long version, for money etc. but the entry barriers are just way too high for it to succeed as is.

    I know it is easier than it sounds, but the aim should be to move DFSers form other sports into soccer, which would help grow the prizepool, which would give them a better chance of attracting soccer fans to DFS.

  • Yeoman

    @SelfCharmer said...

    I think the first market to go for is getting DFSers into Soccer. In the UK obviously soccer is huge here, but with legalised gambling and some pretty poor marketing strategies, DFS doesn’t stand a chance at the moment. I am the only person out of my group of friends who even knows what DFS is. They all play the season long version, for money etc. but the entry barriers are just way too high for it to succeed as is.

    I know it is easier than it sounds, but the aim should be to move DFSers form other sports into soccer, which would help grow the prizepool, which would give them a better chance of attracting soccer fans to DFS.

    Where do they play their season-long?

    Legalized gambling or no, there’s an enormous pool of potential DFSers in Europe if anybody would market it well.

  • SelfCharmer

    The main Premier League site, but lots (has to be over 500k but I am not sure) play other sites alongside it (Most National Newspapers run one with prizes etc).

    Although I understand that 11 man rosters with scoring closer to season long is helpful for attracting the casual players, I still think that 8 man rosters with DK scoring is the best of the bunch. It is much easier for casual players to identify a ‘cross’ than other stats some sites use, although obviously no scoring system is perfect.

    I completely agree the market for DFS soccer is massive, and potentially the largest of any sport, as it is the most watched in the world, and unlike the NFL/NBA, the majority of fans live in countries where legal issue do not exist (not even a taxable income in UK)

  • jellish

    @hambazaza said...

    I think Soccer is the best sweat for any sport, you build your lineup, then ALL the games happen at the same time and then you get paid out within 2-4 hours.

    This is definitely what has drawn me in. I’ve always liked soccer I played for years throughout my childhood into college, but I lost touch with the sport not having many friends that were into it. The sweat is far better than any sport I’ve played and I love that you get paid out sooner than later you’re not stuck waiting around for a payout. I think the interest is growing overall and as it continues more and more people will be drawn to DFS. The biggest drawback I see right now for the casual player/fan is the lack of reliable and consistent information available. Obviously you have some sites that try to post content, but if you didn’t necessarily know where to look I would imagine it becomes difficult to fill a LU especially if you’re not familiar with the entire rosters, style of play, teams, etc.

  • Yeoman

    @jellish said...

    The biggest drawback I see right now for the casual player/fan is the lack of reliable and consistent information available. Obviously you have some sites that try to post content, but if you didn’t necessarily know where to look I would imagine it becomes difficult to fill a LU especially if you’re not familiar with the entire rosters, style of play, teams, etc.

    Agreed. I follow soccer obsessively and I still sometimes have trouble finding timely lineup information for the Mexican league and some of the Central American qualifiers that show up on the slates at DK. One of the SA qualifiers last week didn’t have lineups post until a few minutes before kickoff, too. That’s got to be frustrating for a casual player.

    I think maybe the most useful thing RG could do is add SOC to their lineup page. I don’t think it would be all that hard to come up with some sort of likely lineup a day or so in advance—Rotoworld does it for several leagues—and the actual lineups could probably be pulled from somewhere automatically as they come out. (Except for Liga MX. I don’t know why that’s so hard.)

    ——

    I’ve found soccerway to be a very useful site, and not just for DFS purposes. They don’t have nearly the depth of information that’s available at whoscored but they’re exhaustive. Lineups seem to post within seconds of the official announcement and they cover several divisions worth of soccer in every country.

  • Yeoman

    @SelfCharmer said...

    The main Premier League site, but lots (has to be over 500k but I am not sure) play other sites alongside it (Most National Newspapers run one with prizes etc).

    Can foreigners play? I may look for the Bundesliga equivalent next year.

  • mallotc93

    @SelfCharmer said...

    Quote

    DK will only succeed across the pond with the right strategy
    All me mates would rather go into the local bookies, put on 4 teams in an accumulator and hope they win that rather than invest time and money into DK fantasy. They need to offer free contests initially and stop advertising in news papers and get on social media.
    My brother works for a PR firm in London, one of his employer’s is paddy power- they are not concerned about DK entering the market

  • Yeoman

    @mallotc93 said...

    DK will only succeed across the pond with the right strategy
    All me mates would rather go into the local bookies, put on 4 teams in an accumulator and hope they win that rather than invest time and money into DK fantasy. They need to offer free contests initially and stop advertising in news papers and get on social media.
    My brother works for a PR firm in London, one of his employer’s is paddy power- they are not concerned about DK entering the market

    I’m surprised Yahoo hasn’t moved on this. They’re happy to run free contests since their ultimate goal is eyeballs on their site more than rake, and they’d started running season-long contests a few years ago in several European leagues. But they did a half-assed job of it, and the DFS offering has never moved on from EPL. If they’d done a better job with their seasonal leagues (and surely they could have, they’re a major player in all four US sports) they’d already have a market, but they dropped the ball.

  • Lairdinho

    Yahoo does Champions League too.

  • SelfCharmer

    As far as I know, Yahoo is only available in the US, and I think the big thing here is getting Europeans as they are clearly the biggest market.

    Sports betting is a major hurdle though, as literally everyone does it at the weekend when watching games. The way i would advertise it would be as a competition against other people. You are not trying to ‘beat the bookies’. the best thing about season long fantasy is playing in mini leagues with friends etc, so marketing in a way where you have to be the best out of all entrants to win large prizes will surely grab peoples attention.

    Personally I would attack the UCL/UEL aggressively rather than EPL for now, it is at a better time for US players so would attract them to help with a large guarantee, and in its later stages it features all of the major European teams so you can have 2 days of consecutive slates which are stacked with casual player favourites.

    Hopefully the next 12 months we can see the growth of DFS Soccer really take off

  • Yeoman

    @SelfCharmer said...

    As far as I know, Yahoo is only available in the US, and I think the big thing here is getting Europeans as they are clearly the biggest market.

    I agree.

    A couple of years ago not only was Yahoo offering seasonal soccer (England, Germany, Italy, Spain) but they’d set up seasonal fantasy cricket. That wasn’t directed at the US market, that’s for sure. That’s all gone now—anyone know what happened?

  • Yeoman

    @SelfCharmer said...

    I think the first market to go for is getting DFSers into Soccer.

    I wonder if we have this backwards? How many soccer fans in the US are even aware DFS soccer exists? The DFS advertising blitzkrieg was entirely focused on football, and all the other sports trickle down from there. Maybe there’s not enough overlap between the US soccer-obsessive community and NFL fans for that to work. Or maybe fans are so used to soccer being marginalized here that they’d never bother to check to see if there was a soccer version.

    What if maybe .01% of the money they spent on those big-check ads during NFL games had been dropped on an occasional ad on Fox Soccer Plus?

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    Agree with the comments that the DK scoring is in the best interest of the game. Yes, it is simple, which is good, but I think the bigger thing for me is that the scoring is easy to follow. You can watch a game and easily see the stats that tend to accumulate the most fantasy points (goals, assists, shots, crosses, saves). I am not sure that is the case with the more comprehensive Fanduel scoring. As someone else pointed out above, I think the best thing soccer has going for it is that it is a great sweat having most of the games go at the same time. Being able to watch the games/enjoy easily seeing your players accumulate fantasy stats adds to that sweat.

    The sites could DEFINITELY do a better job of marketing soccer. But, and this was also mentioned above, it is going to be VERY difficult to tap much into the market outside the US, which is where the explosive growth is. But the avid followers/fans of the EPL and other leagues have been betting on the matches forever to sweat the games. It is easy to throw a bet down on one side. It is not near as easy to construct fantasy lineups. So if someone is looking to sweat the game, betting on the game is just easier/simpler. I am not sure how Fantasy Soccer (regardless of marketing) can ever overcome that. They just have to slowly try to build a little interest at a time and hope at least some people start to give it a try.

  • webbm1

    @mallotc93 said...

    DK will only succeed across the pond with the right strategy
    All me mates would rather go into the local bookies, put on 4 teams in an accumulator and hope they win that rather than invest time and money into DK fantasy. They need to offer free contests initially and stop advertising in news papers and get on social media.
    My brother works for a PR firm in London, one of his employer’s is paddy power- they are not concerned about DK entering the market

    I find my mates are exactly the same, they’d rather spend money on a accumulator which would pay out £10000 than a small entry GPP against other players.

    I’ve managed to persuade 2 mates to sign up to DK but once their initial deposit ran out they gave up.

    I also find that here in the UK we pay no attention to statistics. In America, everything is Statistics.. so and so is averaging so many rebounds a game, win percentages etc.

    Apart from Goals scored and Premier League league table what stats are even on offer to us on a consistent basis.

  • sirrobert6

    • Blogger of the Month

    would love to see a Rotogrinders Footy show, it deserves some time. It is something I see being really successful, and without it duds the community, considering NASCAR and MMA get shows, this should as well.

  • SelfCharmer

    Nascar and MMA regularly have massive prizepools (compared to soccer) this is why it is still neglected.

  • yousif

    • Blogger of the Month

    Agree that in the UK, as a punter, it can be easier to just jump down to the bookies & throw a couple of bets down instead of building a full fantasy team. That’s why scoring & simplicity is so important when it comes to product. IMO the salary cap & 11 player system FD introduced for soccer was just too much. It works for FPL because that’s not a gambling product but puts punters off when it comes to DFS.

    DRAFT joining forces with Paddy Power Betfair was a fantastic move because if they ever want to enter the soccer market in UK they don’t compete with bookies, they are distributed to them instead. Partnering with incumbent bookies is 1 way to overcome the issue of liquidity & bet at bookie vs. build a fantasy team issue.

  • yousif

    • Blogger of the Month

    @sirrobert6 said...

    would love to see a Rotogrinders Footy show, it deserves some time. It is something I see being really successful, and without it duds the community, considering NASCAR and MMA get shows, this should as well.

    Love this idea. Like most guys on the thread have pointed out soccer has a great sweat & this would be awesome to watch during, for example, a live FB / YouTube stream on a full Saturday Premier League game day.

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