INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • rausch180

    A bit different to the usual ones, but yesterday at NBA (18th Nov) they both managed to botch their GPP entries. Cash they had 2 common builds around the 5 core plays of Doncic, Sabonis, House, TT and Dinwiddie. Nothing to see there.

    Yet in the $55 NBA $200K FINGER WAG there were 4132 entries in the GPP, of which 111 had Kyrie Irving who had long been ruled out. ChipotleAddict had 104 with Irving, papagates 7 with him, no one else had any unsurprisingly. Same deal with Jeremy Lamb long ruled out, 29 lineups had him in the GPP, 27 were ChipotleAddict and 2 were papagates. Also in the $8 NBA $400K EXCELLENT 8’S the pattern was similar.

    Once ResultsDB is updated, you’ll be able to see for yourself.

    It is very uncommon for this to happen to a max entry reg. They both had a cash lineup that appears well reacted to all the news. The question is what is the chance of both players independently making a very rare mistake and the same mistake and only in GPP? Any one have a reasonable explanation?

  • Trappist1

    @DFSx42 said...

    yeah… like when i suggested people stop playing on DK at least for one day to get their voices heard and people ridiculed that

    vote with your wallets people and you’ll get the DFS site you want, there are dozens of sites out there, it’s a very simple process to exercise options the free market makes available

    DK also has among the highest rake too, there’s really no reason to play there at all

    Indeed, there is a lot more platforms out there and innovation in this space has not stopped. The power resides with the customer and the better informed we are the best for most of us as well.

  • Trappist1

    @gaelicgirl said...

    Appreciate your contribution to the discussion, thanks for the link!
    Most people are resigned to the apparent collusion, etc. People expect that nothing will be done about it because the sites need that big money to keep flowing in. “He who pays the piper calls the tune,” as they say.
    The only way to negate the collusion is to play single entry contests. You won’t win life changing money, but at least the playing field is more even and you can still enjoy the challenge of DFS as a hobby.

    Thanks for the kind words and fully agree that there is too much focus on chasing the big prizes. Give me lower rake, innovative game styles, proportional pay structure and clean game. If that is smaller contests and single entry that is fine. Keep an eye on Dr. Haugh, he says that they might further academic research on the other sports and which strategies work best.

  • Trappist1

    @jjwd said...

    Well, you are definitely missing my point. My problem with these discussions is the presumption of guilt. That is Orwellian. As for the completely bogus strawman argument of: “people don’t care about game integrity” you couldn’t be more wrong. This whole thread has been about interested people debating the mechanics of the error which happened that night; an error which people frankly don’t understand unless they know how optimizers and csv uploads work.

    To suggest that DK is somehow covering up provable collusion because they need rake from one guy is preposterous on it’s face. This is a global company who understands the rabid press and media scrutiny, having gone through it already. The idea of cooperation and lineup sharing is a grey area, but that is a separate debate. People like me who give plausible explanations for errors like this are doing so because we love the game and don’t like to see resentful players give up hope based on unfounded assumptions.

    I do not see a presumption of guilt at all. The person who started the thread astutely observed anomaly in the data and wanted an explanation. Optimizers are old technology, most people understand how they work as they are used widely before DFS even existed. On collusion/insider trading I posted the academic research and presentation which covered it in detail so it is nothing new and any reasonable person can take time to inform themselves about the issue at large.

    There is no rabid press or media scrutiny, remember when DFS platforms argued to lawmakers that they are not gambling operators and guess what they are now. Come on. Let us be honest. DFS platforms troubles are always their own making. In a civil case the evidence test is ‘balance of probabilities’ to prove a case. On balance of probabilities we can safely say collusion happens in DFS. Entry limits are circumvented through multi-accounting and syndicate play.

  • Abused

    Again – syndicate

  • internetfamous

    @bhdevault said...

    Just going to leave this reply by the DK rep in another thread: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/draftkings-community-what-would-you-like-to-know-2498166?page=86#reply-3208294

    Which is great, but this has been going on for jeez, over 2 years since I’ve noticed it?

    I have sent them countless screenshots of them just blatantly sharing, its not even like they try to hide it 90% of the time and it just gets overlooked. DK says alot of things, and while they follow thru with some of it, most of it is just pushed under the rug.

    I don’t know what they can do about the people who are buying lineups to use when you randomly see 25 people with the same lineups in cash games but these two are literally just obvious, and alot of the time if you check their MM lineups they have literally the same core people and each just take turns swapping around 1-2 people so they have every combo.

    Someone quoted me earlier and said “just make better lineups” and yeah thats true, but I don’t have the means or funds to max entry every single tournament on a nightly basis, and with them cheating they still double up my lineups.

    Sure some nights their core absolutely bombs and they’re out their 30k, but its hard to tank that badly when you have 300 lineups.

  • carney259

    • 148

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    • Ranked #20

      RG Tiered Ranking

    If they do coordinate, they seem to intentionally differentiate their core plays. Last night, Chiptole’s core absolutely smashed in the Finger Wag and took down 9 of the top 14 places, 19 of the top 50, and 36 of the top 100. Which is super impressive for anyone, pro or not. Meanwhile, papagates’s highest finish was 91st. There’s no way that happens if they are coordinating in any meaningful way. If nights like that happened before the date of the OP (which I don’t know the answer to, but would be curious), I would seriously question whether they are consistently coordinating.

  • Smallchimp

    @gaelicgirl said...

    Appreciate your contribution to the discussion, thanks for the link!
    Most people are resigned to the apparent collusion, etc. People expect that nothing will be done about it because the sites need that big money to keep flowing in. “He who pays the piper calls the tune,” as they say.
    The only way to negate the collusion is to play single entry contests. You won’t win life changing money, but at least the playing field is more even and you can still enjoy the challenge of DFS as a hobby.

    While there’s a larger representation of people who play DFS as a hobby on here than in the general player base, I really would expect flat pay structures to be much less popular with the average player. The appeal of DFS to the masses has always been the allure of winning life changing money just based on sports knowledge, the idea of a flatter payout is more of a priority for the workhorses around here that are more likely to consistently have solid finishes and thus top 100 finishes paying 200% more is awesome to them. A casual player is more likely to be wowed by seeing $1,000,000 or $200,000 on the front of the contest than they are to even bother looking at the payout from 2nd to whatever.

    Of course the best alternative is mixed offerings of both steep contests as well as flat contests. I just think there’s an inherent bias on this board of the players that are active in the DFS community and consume higher than average amounts of content. We have different priorities than the average player and there’s a need to kind of step back and understand the differences at play.

  • nik2014

    are those 2 banned yet?

  • vino24

    • 2019 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    Nope still going strong, should be able to cover every player in NBA tonight with 300 lineups, congrats!!

  • lilprog

    • Blogger of the Month

    You guys complaining about 300 lineups covering all the bases need to spend some time in resultsdb. Most nights there are more than 50 people max entering the large contests and a majority of them lose on any given night. 300 lineups far from guarantees any kind of success.

  • shockermandan

    • Moderator

    I’m not defending their general play. I also think this was/is an interesting tidbit to share. It could also easily be explained by a family event that took both of them away for the day.

  • BerkeleyBoss

    @lilprog said...

    You guys complaining about 300 lineups covering all the bases need to spend some time in resultsdb. Most nights there are more than 50 people max entering the large contests and a majority of them lose on any given night. 300 lineups far from guarantees any kind of success.

    You don’t think it’s an advantage to coordinate and have 300 unique lineups?

  • Skee

    @gaelicgirl said...

    The only way to negate the collusion is to play single entry contests. You won’t win life changing money, but at least the playing field is more even and you can still enjoy the challenge of DFS as a hobby.

    I still don’t get why a life-changing pot can’t be offered. Ok, yes, a single entry is going to have a lot less people, but I see 40k-50k people fill some on FD. However, they ALWAYS flatten the the payout, which I get that some people want, but every single time? NEVER a big jackpot contest? If I ever find out about a site that does it I’d be very interested, but I know FD never, ever does.

  • hendog

    • 556

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    • Ranked #78

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    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @BerkeleyBoss said...

    You don’t think it’s an advantage to coordinate and have 300 unique lineups?

    If you’re +EV 300 is better than 150 but it’s not like some magical thing.

    There’s nothing stopping anyone from entering 300 unique lineups in a slate—assuming there are at least 2 big GPPs. (Not sure if that’s typically the case for NBA, I only play NFL). In my highest volume days I was hitting 500 lineups per slate regularly. Only when you run out of GPPs to max enter does the limit really matter.

    I’m not weighing in on the brothers specifically, their explanation is plausible but also fishy. I just think the advantage of multi-accounting is only really for the biggest heavyweights. I don’t think it would help their ROI but it would allow them to get more volume once their bankroll is high enough that the entry limits start preventing them from getting as much action as they want.

    Me, and 99+% of players, our volume is limited by our bankroll, not by how much action we can get from the available contests.

    For the brothers, that’s clearly not the case, so yes they do have some incentive to circumvent the limits. I just wanted to add some nuance to the discussion of what is the advantage of entering 300 vs 150 lineups. It has to be considered on the level of the whole slate, not a single GPP.

  • BerkeleyBoss

    @hendog said...

    If you’re +EV 300 is better than 150 but it’s not like some magical thing.

    There’s nothing stopping anyone from entering 300 unique lineups in a slate—assuming there are at least 2 big GPPs. (Not sure if that’s typically the case for NBA, I only play NFL). In my highest volume days I was hitting 500 lineups per slate regularly. Only when you run out of GPPs to max enter does the limit really matter.

    I’m not weighing in on the brothers specifically, their explanation is plausible but also fishy. I just think the advantage of multi-accounting is only really for the biggest heavyweights. I don’t think it would help their ROI but it would allow them to get more volume once their bankroll is high enough that the entry limits start preventing them from getting as much action as they want.

    Me, and 99+% of players, our volume is limited by our bankroll, not by how much action we can get from the available contests.

    For the brothers, that’s clearly not the case, so yes they do have some incentive to circumvent the limits. I just wanted to add some nuance to the discussion of what is the advantage of entering 300 vs 150 lineups. It has to be considered on the level of the whole slate, not a single GPP.

    I agree with all of that. I’m all for nuance in general, but his post was basically gaslighting the entire thread.

  • NoLimits0

    Hendog you are right in a way but what if one brother also helps the other set his lineups? That’s a much bigger advantage? Imagine if you had an assistant with his own account and he also had access to your account.

  • BIF

    @nik2014 said...

    are those 2 banned yet?

    😂😂😂

    The DFS sites won’t ban people who help them fill every Contest and make more rake

  • ilayup

    I think it’s important to cut this off to ensure we don’t have larger cases. However, I’m not overly angsty about the immediate impact from 2 dudes in the one game I play… but I’m only familiar with fantasy golf. How much of an advantage is this in other sports? 2 dudes covering 300 lineups? In full-field golf we’re talking about ~3-5B different good lineup combinations (above 47K or 48K in salary). If two brothers pick 300 unique lineups out of that pool of 3-5B (and we have 20,000 other dudes picking 100K more lineups…80-90% of which are unique and non-duplicated)… meh…

  • hendog

    • 556

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    • Ranked #78

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    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @NoLimits0 said...

    Hendog you are right in a way but what if one brother also helps the other set his lineups? That’s a much bigger advantage? Imagine if you had an assistant with his own account and he also had access to your account.

    That’s just my point thought, I don’t know what I would do with an assistant. I would have them help edit my lineups or something when I get overwhelmed, but even as a mass multi-entry player my entries are limited by my bankroll, not the limits. If I was opening a hypothetical second account, I wouldn’t be able to fund it.

    My point is, if mutli-accounting is a thing, it’s surely about volume, and maximizing action, not ROI.

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