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  • rausch180

    A bit different to the usual ones, but yesterday at NBA (18th Nov) they both managed to botch their GPP entries. Cash they had 2 common builds around the 5 core plays of Doncic, Sabonis, House, TT and Dinwiddie. Nothing to see there.

    Yet in the $55 NBA $200K FINGER WAG there were 4132 entries in the GPP, of which 111 had Kyrie Irving who had long been ruled out. ChipotleAddict had 104 with Irving, papagates 7 with him, no one else had any unsurprisingly. Same deal with Jeremy Lamb long ruled out, 29 lineups had him in the GPP, 27 were ChipotleAddict and 2 were papagates. Also in the $8 NBA $400K EXCELLENT 8’S the pattern was similar.

    Once ResultsDB is updated, you’ll be able to see for yourself.

    It is very uncommon for this to happen to a max entry reg. They both had a cash lineup that appears well reacted to all the news. The question is what is the chance of both players independently making a very rare mistake and the same mistake and only in GPP? Any one have a reasonable explanation?

  • carney259

    • 360

      RG Overall Ranking

    @blenderhd said...

    But the other players in those contests aren’t investors, they’re competitors. And it’s not like PEDs in baseball. Opponent’s juicing doesn’t affect their guaranteed paychecks, just wins on the field. Awesemo, GiantSquid, Youdacao, Moklovin, RikkieDee and 100 others are losing money to these brothers and their elimination from the ecosystem would significantly benefit them financially in the millions of dollars. There’s no reason for them to protect the Crowleys and all the reasons (and dollars) in the world for them to seek them being banned from play if they were indeed cheating.

    Of course PEDs affected competitors financially. You do realize that contracts are based on comparative performance? What if you were a clean pitcher in a contract year getting blown up by PED’d up hitters? Or what if you were a clean hitter knocking 40 HRs a year and competing for the big free agency deals with the guys hitting 60 and 70? Or you are a minor league kid who can’t get the call up because the players you are competing with for a roster spot are juiced?

    Why is the distinction between investors and competitors meaningful? If anything, wouldn’t the investors have even more incentive to blow the whistle? His point is the investors didn’t.

  • superstars92

    • 448

      RG Overall Ranking

    @blenderhd said...

    But the other players in those contests aren’t investors, they’re competitors. And it’s not like PEDs in baseball. Opponent’s juicing doesn’t affect their guaranteed paychecks, just wins on the field. Awesemo, GiantSquid, Youdacao, Moklovin, RikkieDee and 100 others are losing money to these brothers and their elimination from the ecosystem would significantly benefit them financially in the millions of dollars. There’s no reason for them to protect the Crowleys and all the reasons (and dollars) in the world for them to seek them being banned from play if they were indeed cheating.

    This is already been sort of covered by the other two responses above mine, but when you say “losing” money to these brothers, let’s put something in perspective.

    Say an average pro makes like 500k a year and there’s like what 250 pros? So I would estimate maybe 1 extra pro is costing every other pro like maybe an EV of around 2.5k? Ok so let’s say that these other guys do have an incentive to report the brothers because it’s worth 2.5k. Well, you know why I mentioned my examples….because in those cases, it was far more than 2.5k, more than the “millions” in the ecosystem you describe, it was billions, and yet no one said anything. No one even found anything wrong until it was too late.

    I was just alluding to your post, where you mention, there are “100+ guys and 5+ years” and no one has said anything. First, as Zieg said, you don’t know that. Perhaps a lot do privately email but they don’t want to publictly come here and say it. Besides, they have to meet them at a live final and they might feel awkward. For some, they might not think 2.5k is super significant or don’t really think they are even losing money to them.

    In one of my examples (too long to use all 4), I talk about Enron. If you know the story of Enron, it was audited by a very prestigious “Big Five” (now it’s “Big Four”, guess what happened) accounting firm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen). There were 85k employees at Arthur Andersen and Enron was like it’s largest client. There were probably 5-10k people dedicated to Enron and there were years and years of documents of Enron’s financials (this is way more than your “100+ people and 5+ years”). Guess what, not a single person saw any issue with Enron and it’s financials even though it was sitting right in front of them. You know how it turned out. Arhur Andersen went bankrupt, got charged, and was forced to split up, including losing it’s entire auditing division. It had made nearly 10 billion in revenue in it’s last year before going bankrupt. 85k people lost their job. Enron went bankrupt. All it’s shareholders lost everything. That’s far more to “lose” than 2.5k in EV. Yet no one said a thing. In fact, no one even found a thing.

    That’s my point. There are far bigger scandals in which far more people are invovled, more years are invovled, smarter people are invovled, and no one says a thing. More importantly, no one even found anything wrong. So it’s not easy to prove these things, just because there are 100+ people and 5+ years. The previous papa/CA threads I found to be like not really proving anything and I don’t think we can use them for anything. This one is more interesting because it’s more like a smoking gun in a way. So that’s why I used the examples I did. Hope it makes sense.

  • superstars92

    • 448

      RG Overall Ranking

    @blender: you have to read the original post to understand where all of us are coming from. The post isn’t as simple as “CA/Papa colluding.” If it was like that with bad evidence, I would have dismissed it too, but this evidence is like a smoking gun.

    You want to explain to all of us how it can be possible to end up with the circumstances described in the original post (and he posted the links which has that data too so it’s not heresay). I have no idea how I would be able to explain it to you. Like I said, I still don’t want to say it’s 1 person 2 accounts 100% of the time, as that’s pretty strong, but you gotta think at least last night it was the case, just maybe not on a full time basis.

  • SkateFiend

    Why did they play players who were ruled out?

  • NoLimits0

    @lucashoward7 said...

    I will say that I am not convinced of anything one way or the other and I don’t want to point any fingers as these are extremely serious accusations. However, here is what I would want to know…
    1) Do they ever have lineup overlap in GPPs? It would be -EV to knowingly have overlap between the two and a lack of overlap would likely lend some credence to the idea that their running the maximum number of lineups you could get onto 2 accounts in the same optimizer.
    2) Do they ever have only one account playing a slate? In that same vein, are there any contests that one is max entered for and not the other? If they are using one person to fill out both of the accounts entries it is unlikely that they would not both be max entered for each and every slate and contest.
    3) These are likely only things that can be done by DK, but I think you can probably learn a lot from their account habits. Specifically, is there every simultaneous activity on the accounts by way of editing/entering lineups, registering contests, etc.?

    From the previous thread it seems like there are actually a few pros who try to defend their behavior which is odd in itself

  • NoLimits0

    @SkateFiend said...

    Why did they play players who were ruled out?

    Not they one of the two. It’s statistically impossible both would do so, especially since both also managed to get their late exposures perfect as well as their cash lineup to have Dinwiddie. The one who was the one responsible to uploading to both accounts messed up so he messed up for both accounts.

  • SkateFiend

    @NoLimits0 said...

    Not they one of the two. It’s statistically impossible both would do so, especially since both also managed to get their late exposures perfect as well as their cash lineup to have Dinwiddie. The one who was the one responsible to uploading to both accounts messed up so he messed up for both accounts.

    Oh I get it now. I was wondering why everyone got worked over for them playing lineups with inactive players.

  • superstars92

    • 448

      RG Overall Ranking

    @SkateFiend said...

    Oh I get it now. I was wondering why everyone got worked over for them playing lineups with inactive players.

    I play inactive players all the time. Well they are active, they just score like 5 FPs so pretty much inactive. Story of my life.

  • emoney1214

    I don’t mean to target or be harsh, but blender came in here and tried to change the narrative or argument and distract from the major point in this thread. The bottom line is what is the explanation in THIS instance?

    Again, this is not relevant to the thread, but if I was a pro, or known player, I would not be vocal and accusatory of something that is extremely hard to prove, and when you know the sites won’t do anything anyways. It’s pointless and just puts you in the spotlight.

  • NoLimits0

    @emoney1214 said...

    I don’t mean to target or be harsh, but blender came in here and tried to change the narrative or argument and distract from the major point in this thread. The bottom line is what is the explanation in THIS instance?

    Again, this is not relevant to the thread, but if I was a pro, or known player, I would not be vocal and accusatory of something that is extremely hard to prove, and when you know the sites won’t do anything anyways. It’s pointless and just puts you in the spotlight.

    Oh I’m sure there are some pros who have complained privately. Unlike previous times there may not have been this type of obvious evidence. I just wonder if DK will investigate this time because it’s so obvious. I highly doubt it though. If it was two smaller players I’m sure their accounts would be shut down though. I’ve seen previous posts here on RG about people who complained their accounts got shut down for literally doing the same thing (signing up or playing on behalf of someone else) so I know it’s a precedent. They just paid like very little rake.

    I would love to see one of the pros publicly come here because I know they read the thread but I know they probably won’t because it really doesn’t benefit them to do so. I honestly would give so much mad respect to one if they did do it though but I understand it serves them no benefit.

    To your point, I would love to hear blender’s explanation. He also accused people on this thread for saying that there was an imaginary brother when I’m pretty sure everyone acknowledged there were 2 brothers it’s just one is playing on the other persons account.

  • NoLimits0

    @superstars92 said...

    That wasn’t my question regarding VPNs. My question is whether a VPN a traceable event or not? Like if a person uses a VPN, can the host trace that? You said you were a dev, so I assume you would know better than me.

    Sorry I didn’t see this question. Yes so there are many VPNs these days who can get around geographical limitations. Like some hosts do block VPNs but many VPNs are designed to trick a host into not thinking it’s a VPN. It should be covered in the Wiki article over VPNs. I have no idea how DK does it since I have never used any VPN, but seeing DK has pretty “laxed” policies in general I wouldn’t be surprised if they couldn’t even detect VPNs and allow even people in banned states to play through sophisticated VPNs (a big no no in my opinion but who knows what they do)

    Basically all Chipotle and Papa have to do is have one person play using the normal wifi settings and have the other account be logged through a VPN. Everything can then be shared through email, slack, whatever.

    If you ever logged on to your work at home, that’s how it works. Many software devs do this. You can still use your home wifi but you have a seperate remote access screen that’s using your company’s VPN.

    The question might be why don’t other pros like do this. Well either they have a good conscience (which is probably the case) but more importantly they probably don’t have a sibling/close friend that can allow them to share info. Like a top pro could technically do this by signing up their Mom and then playing on the account using the same VPN I discussed. However no one would do this even if they had a bad conscience because it would be obvious their mom really doesn’t have any sports knowledge and wouldn’t be high rolling 100k+ a week.

  • blenderhd

    • 634

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    @emoney1214 said...

    I don’t mean to target or be harsh, but blender came in here and tried to change the narrative or argument and distract from the major point in this thread. The bottom line is what is the explanation in THIS instance?

    I’ll tell you a likely explanation, because it’s happened to me before a select few times, and other MME players would share similar anecdotes. It’s exactly what I thought when the OP first posted this here.

    It’s common to create a “dummy” lineup or complete “dummy” build early just for the sake of having lineups to enter contests. You can take a quick 150 run from your projection model to fill this CSV, and if you haven’t accounted for any injuries, availabilities, minutes, usage, etc. yet, you could easily get a build with a ton of weird players. It doesn’t matter, however, because you’re going to be overwriting it before lock anyways. But maybe 3-4 times in the years I’ve played, the import of the new lineup build CSV has a technical issue, I’ve been 5 seconds too late in uploading right at lock time, and once I was dealing with a personal matter & lost track of the time completely missing lock altogether. It sucks, but it happens. I’ve also seen many top, high volume players once or twice a year end up with a 150 lineup “train” with their dummy lineup in GPPs or some really weird build with deep bench players in it.

    Being that the Crowleys already openly admit to utilizing a similar projection model (if you think this shouldn’t be allowed, that’s different debate), it’s not a far stretch to believe these were quickly run 150 builds out of it the night before, (since their process is similar to other MME players) so the likelihood of similarly injured/weird players would be quite high coming from the similar source data. For whatever reason, a personal matter (they are brothers), who knows, and they missed uploading their MME build CSV at lock. Singular cash lineups are usually done by hand (I do mine on my phone, not on desktop) so it’s not a far stretch to assume this was the case here to easily make swaps regardless of where you are.

    Since I know plenty who this has happened to and I have personally done it myself, that’s why I didn’t find it to be compelling evidence of “cheating” at all. In fact, if they weren’t brothers and this happened to just two unrelated accounts, it would actually look much more shady. Remember, these guys have already stated a while ago that while they build lineups independently, they also use the same source data for their projection models. You’d have more of a case, at least, if they didn’t.

    Does this prove they don’t have one brother operate both accounts? No. But it is an reasonable explanation for this single occurrence.

  • NoLimits0

    ^you are again listing out a case that although could have happened it’s a statistical improbability. Same with DNA tests this is why 99.9934% match is considered a virtual lock. You are trying to explain a 0.0001% case.

    First both brothers don’t even live in the same state. Second there needed to actually be an emergency which alone is unlikely. Third the emergency was “only” 1.5 hours maximum (sounds like a real emergency right being 1.5 hours maximum maybe one got stuck at Qdoba and the other had to rescue him…but actually since they live in different places that can’t even happen) because both submitted late slate lineups perfectly fine giving 0% Kawhi exposure and almost max exposure to the players who would benefit the most without Kawhi. They both also played tonight so seemed like a real emergency alright. Fourth, they needed to both not have already made their build after Kyrie was ruled out (don’t know about most people but if im switching to Dinwiddie in cash my next logical step is to at least swap out Kyrie even if that’s not my final build). Fifth if I had 10k+ entries with Kyrie and I knew Kyrie (and Lamb were out), which they did since they had Dinwiddie, the most logical thing is to contact DK support for them to cancel. Both didn’t. Sixth, to begin with, they both needed to have very similar dummy lineup builds to start with. Seventh, there already has been previous discussion about them colluding so this isn’t some random event with two random people. What are the chances this all happened independently to both of them. Statistical improbability.

    You know the more logical explanation. One person played both accounts at least for last night. He swapped correctly in cash to Dinwiddie with the Kyrie news but he messed up his 150 MME build and didn’t cancel Kyrie or Lamb from the build which ended up in both accounts. The chances of this latter event happening is far more likely because it only requires one independent event to hold. The first description requires a series of independent events to hold and if you know math when you multiple a lot of independent events together, the overall probability is infinitestimal.

    Look up Occam’s Razor like Yisman said. The easiest explanation is usually the right explanation.

  • NoLimits0

    The problem is blender you come in already biased towards saying they aren’t colluding (which is why you said your first response). To be fair to you, people here are also biased in the opposite way (already assume they are colluding).

    So instead I showed a colleague of mine this thread and explaned to him the situation and he knows nothing about this possible collusion between these brothers but does occasionally play DFS for NFL on weekends so he knows how DFS works.

    I ask him what he thought. First thing was “duh it’s one person playing two accounts. Does it get more obvious than that?”

    He basically pointed out if it was two separate people playing, what are the chances they would be in exact lockstep on every single step yesterday (from both having Kyrie and Lamb in dummy builds, to both switching to Dinwiddie in cash once Kyrie was out, to both not swapping out Kyrie once he was ruled out in GPP lineups, to both making optimal late lineups exposures with Kawhi out, to both not contacting DK support to cancel their entries when it was obvious to them they couldn’t edit, to both having an emergency that only lasts 1.5 hours that would cause them not to swap out Kyrie, to both being the only two teams in the whole tournament with Kyrie or Lamb and they had both, etc etc etc).

    Instead an easy explanation of why both accounts were in lockstep is because it’s one person. That’s where I got my Occam’s Razor from.

    I also then told him these are the guys you have to compete with and he was just like “Makes no difference to me” so I guess it does confirm one thing, most people don’t really care. Like the people said above it’s like PEDs. No one cared until everyone cared once the bad publicity came.

  • blenderhd

    • 634

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    • Ranked #95

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    @NoLimits0 said...

    You know the more logical explanation. One person played both accounts at least for last night.

    If they did, you got them. Congratulations, sir. I assume you’ll be calling a tort attorney in the morning because, if this evidence was indeed so compelling and damning, they should be lining up 100 deep at your door to get a piece of a multi-million dollar class action lawsuit of a $1 billion dollar company committing financial fraud on their customer base of 3 million plus.

    Let me know what happens. I’m more than happy to join this lawsuit. Imagine how much money they’ve stole from me, let alone how much my share of the compensation would be for the punitive damages awarded (although their immediate bankruptcy would likely mean it would be hard to collect). I’m not being facetious. I would be the first person in line to join this lawsuit especially since DraftKings has previously done an investigation into their suspected collusion and cleared them of any wrong doing, which would have been a lie. https://www.casino.org/news/draftkings-clears-millionaire-winner-sibling-collusion

    Or it could be that two players with the same projection model spit out a dummy build earlier and forgot lock. Seems like a pretty easy explanation to me. Occam’s Razor.

    Also, as far as your “logical explanation”, do you realize how much information the sites have about you and the technical tracking capabilities they truly have? You give permissions on your desktop and phone for location services. The website and app are stuffed full of tracking cookies. They have third party partners full of adtech. They have your banking and tax information. If one person played both accounts even for a SPLIT SECOND, they’d know about it. Then your explanation has to also include the sites knowingly allowing the breaking of their terms of service and therefore perpetuated a massive fraud. How does that fit into Occam’s Razor?

  • NoLimits0

    Lol there’s just so much to say to your clearly facetious comment but I won’t even bother now because I don’t want to waste my time.

    I’ll just respond to your last paragraph. As someone who has way more tech expertise than you, your last paragraph is full of incorrect facts. Let’s put it this way. You think DK has better technology than the Chinese government? You ever hear about China’s firewall where you can’t access Facebook, Google, etc. You can look it up it’s a good example since you want to throw out the terminology you did in your last paragraph. I bet you I can go there and immediately access those websites…and not get tracked and blocked..and yes trust me the Chinese government has much stronger technology than a random small DFS company. And yes you can even do it too with limited tech knowledge (LeBron even managed to access his accounts over there given his social media postings!) That alone should show you how much of a bad take your last paragraph above is.

    In fact do you really think all of these pros are in the country 100% of the year? I’m sure they travel outside of the county time to time…I wonder how they still play hmmmmm I wonder.

  • blenderhd

    • 634

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    • Ranked #95

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    @NoLimits0 said...

    . As someone who has way more tech expertise than you, your last paragraph is full of incorrect facts.

    You don’t know me at all whatsoever. But you’re right. I’m dumb. There’s no possible way I could ever have the expertise you have.

    Maybe I’m part of the conspiracy. I’m going to print out this thread so we can all have a big laugh at our next secret Illuminati meeting. Q is going to get a blast out of this.

  • bigfink

    @blenderhd said...

    Or it could be that two players with the same projection model spit out a dummy build earlier and forgot lock. Seems like a pretty easy explanation to me

    Lol is this really you’re defense of them ? Why are you trying to gaslight people on here ? Do you have a piece ? Two of the top 5 players on the site who happen to be brothers and live in different states. Kyrie Irving and Jeremy Lamb were each ruled our hours before lock and neither player Did anything about it ?

  • NoLimits0

    @blenderhd said...

    You don’t know me at all whatsoever. But you’re right. I’m dumb. There’s no possible way I could ever have the expertise you have.

    Maybe I’m part of the conspiracy. I’m going to print out this thread so we can all have a big laugh at our next secret Illuminati meeting. Q is going to get a blast out of this.

    In tech? Lol no way you know more about tech than me. That’s why I only responded to your last paragraph. You are better than me at DFS but when you start talking about tech like in your last paragraph that’s why I gotta correct you. You tried in your last paragraph throwing out all this terminology that you seem to be very adamant about that if I showed any of my junior devs they would be like lol.

  • lemay88

    I have no stake in any of this and I am not a serious DFS player. All I wanted to add is that from what I have read here, blenderhd should just stop talking here. You work for RG and are seemingly defending obvious cheating.

    It appears to me that you are covering up a statistical improbability. Why are you defending these guys? You come across as being si condescending and a know-it-all. It’s a bad look and my 5 cents.

  • NoLimits0

    Besides it’s already been mentioned by other people above. Baseball knew it’s players were taking PEDs. They did nothing because home runs were good for the game. Football knew about its concussions (sad Mike Webster he was one of my favorites) but did nothing.

    It was only public opinion that finally caused them to crater. So DK doing nothing is the norm. I already stated that pages ago. I expect nothing to be done it’s no big deal I’m not really even arguing for that. I’m more arguing for logic in my statements and I think my logic is fine. Also I don’t like it when people start talking about geolocation services, cookies, etc without even knowing how they work.

  • NoLimits0

    @lemay88 said...

    I have no stake in any of this and I am not a serious DFS player. All I wanted to add is that from what I have read here, blenderhd should just stop talking here. You work for RG and are seemingly defending obvious cheating.

    It appears to me that you are covering up a statistical improbability. Why are you defending these guys? You come across as being si condescending and a know-it-all. It’s a bad look and my 5 cents.

    Yea so I even knew I could be possibly biased (other side of blender) so I even showed an unbiased coworker just to get his thoughts.

    I don’t think anything I stated is false. I’ve been using logic and statistics. Remember the last time this came around I sort of gave them a benefit of the doubt but it’s just this time the evidence is very strong.

  • papagates

    • 4

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    • 2016 $1M Prize Winner

    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Both Tom and I use Fantasycruncher’s late swaptimizer in order to swap post lock. Kawhi was ruled out 10 mins post lock. Usually, when a player is ruled out, one of two things happens: 1: Fantasycruncher zero’s out their projection, or removes them from the pool 2: In the odd case that doesn’t happen, its easy enough to catch that and manually X out a player who isn’t playing, given there is enough time. In this case, neither of them happened and we both ended up missing it in the scramble of juggling nba and MNF. Neither of us use fc for prelock nba tournaments which is why you will notice neither of these players were used on fd, and dk could verify that they were not in the prelock uploads. This was just a tiny glitch in fc that neither of us caught in the chaos of post-lock news. Over the thousands of slates we’ve played we’ve both made an embarrassing number of mistakes like this, it has just never happened on the same day before.

  • lemay88

    @NoLimits0 said...

    I don’t think anything I stated is false. I’ve been using logic and statistics. Remember the last time this came around I sort of gave them a benefit of the doubt but it’s just this time the evidence is very strong.

    I agree and blenderhd clearly has no idea how the tech side works. I just feel like this year so many of RG employees are defending scummy behavior. Obviously there seems to be a circle of players who all defend each other for whatever reason without logic or reason.

    In my opinion, RG employees shouldn’t be chiming in, especially when it seems like they are defending super obvious cheating.

    Also, to the DK rep that came in here asking to report. Why? We all know nothing will happen, money talks and it looks bad on you guys. Anybody with half a brain knows these guys are cheating.

  • lemay88

    @papagates said...

    Over the thousands of slates we’ve played we’ve both made an embarrassing number of mistakes like this, it has just never happened on the same day before.

    That is bullshit. Now you are trying to save face when to 99% of us, its quite obvious you guys are colluding and/or cheating.

    Now you blame it on glitches. I mean you must think people are stupid?

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