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  • rausch180

    A bit different to the usual ones, but yesterday at NBA (18th Nov) they both managed to botch their GPP entries. Cash they had 2 common builds around the 5 core plays of Doncic, Sabonis, House, TT and Dinwiddie. Nothing to see there.

    Yet in the $55 NBA $200K FINGER WAG there were 4132 entries in the GPP, of which 111 had Kyrie Irving who had long been ruled out. ChipotleAddict had 104 with Irving, papagates 7 with him, no one else had any unsurprisingly. Same deal with Jeremy Lamb long ruled out, 29 lineups had him in the GPP, 27 were ChipotleAddict and 2 were papagates. Also in the $8 NBA $400K EXCELLENT 8’S the pattern was similar.

    Once ResultsDB is updated, you’ll be able to see for yourself.

    It is very uncommon for this to happen to a max entry reg. They both had a cash lineup that appears well reacted to all the news. The question is what is the chance of both players independently making a very rare mistake and the same mistake and only in GPP? Any one have a reasonable explanation?

  • stv1313

    @superstars92 said...

    I guess maybe FC also just hates the Nets and the Pacers and only glitches on two brothers. Could totally be a valid explanation. Hates Nets, Pacers, and siblings.

    Ha ha! The case has been cracked!

  • gordylamb

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    @blenderhd said...

    Are people actually questioning if there are no brothers and it’s just one person? Martin & Tom Crowley are distinctly two different people. They’ve been at live finals. They’ve been photographed. They’ve been interviewed by major media outlets. It’s ludicrous to think one doesn’t actually exist.

    Also, without debating the merits of any specific case, these guys are two of the most skillful profitable players in the history of DFS. There is a lot of money at stake at their level. 7-8 figures a year or even more in liquidity competing against them. For any of the other top high-stakes volume players, it would be HIGHLY financially rewarding for them to be banned from playing. So why in the world would 100+ different players protect them at all in any way over 5+ years and not be the first ones to report them, gather evidence, and use their already high-level applied mathematical backgrounds to prove beyond any reasonable statistical significance that they are indeed cheating?

    Lol @ this logic

    I assume you aren’t familiar with the hs poker community if you think that “competitors not blowing the whistle” is somehow exculpatory in any way. These ecosystems protect their own, time and time again.

  • gaelicgirl

    @superstars92 said...

    @leemay88, NoLimits, everyone else you guys get some rest, this forum is about to explode tomorrow. I’ve got the MJ popcorn gif ready.

    Trust me.

    I’m on the edge of my seat

  • DFSx42

    if you guys wanted to be taken seriously then vote with your wallets, organize a day of no DK and they’ll start taking this much more seriously if they have a big dip in revenue

    you guys complain endlessly about DK allowing collusion, but then keep going back for more action anyway. just take your business to one of many other DFS sites, it’s a rather simple solution

  • osuryanf

    I’m really waiting for FantasyCruncher members to post more logic on the error discussion, or FantasyCruncher themselves to give commentary before I make up my mind…. but it’s incredibly obvious how bad this looks.

  • jgabby

    • 957

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    So the FC error is actually logical. Here’s what may have happened:

    They uploaded projections to FC early in the morning/night before which included Kyrie and Lamb. They use the same/similar projections, we know this. They went about their day normally, making adjustments to projections as news broke. They finalized their lineups and uploaded to DK building on their own optimizer/other than FC. Kawhi news came out 10 minutes after lock. They jumped on FC to swaptimize their GPP lineups since they hand-swapped their cash lineups. They uploaded their new projections but didn’t remove previous projections (it’s a thing). They didn’t have Kyrie or Lamb in the set they uploaded since they weren’t in the lineup. FC may have had them at 0 but the Crowleys still had them at their previous projection. This would lead to their swapped lineups including Kyrie and Lamb.

    This has happened to me in NHL so I know it’s possible. Up to you rest to debate whether both could make the same mistake in the same night.

  • apeterson8809

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    • Blogger of the Month

    Nothing like a Papa Chipotle-gate to bring the RG forum back to life

  • hizzy

    I am just so blown away that some of you all think this sophisticated husler (HU$tLER) is actually playing by the rules. Maybe its because RotoGrinders is typically so heavy handed modding these threads you all know, so you have to be so very sweet and light handed. All the while your getting the knife stuck in your back, on a daily basis by these two.

    You know that REG charity he sports, to make himself look good. It is a collaborative of some of the most sophisticated, young , and successful online and live poker/DFS/gambling individuals. I am sure also a big function of their ability to play the highest stakes 365 days a year. Their action is in some way being financed by that “Charity” which is run by Igor Kurganov (Russian). This is an individual who knows every single angle, to maximize EV in every situation humanly imaginable. From stretching the boundaries of the game in their favor like using 2 accounts 1 player 300 lineups, to equity chopping, sophisticated tools among other things that over the years all have come to learn about, and are against the TOS. And the list goes on because when enough money is involved as they say, someone is always going to be seeking a bigger edge and that doesn’t mean fairly.

    This rats nest goes deeper then I think some of you all even understand, and its people Kurganov/REG/ChipotleAddict/PG who know one another from the poker world. The online poker days like Draftkings top brass, they are all completely aware of exactly what is going on here. How this is so advantageous to CA/PG, and its amazing to me such mart people, many of you, just choose to give them the benefit of the doubt time after time. And for years while staring the most damning evidence that there can be. Dont sell your own reputation so short for a bunch of angle-shooting colluding scumbags.

    I hope this is the final nail in the coffin, and it opens up a much bigger can of worms. id love to see how much money comes from Kurganov (REG charity..) to CA/PG which they put into action and gamble with. Only criminal charges could subpoena that kind of financial information though. To be able to look at his (or both ofc) real financial and personal transaction history. I think you all would flabbergasted at what you find!

  • superstars92

    • 448

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    @jgabby said...

    So the FC error is actually logical. Here’s what may have happened:

    They uploaded projections to FC early in the morning/night before which included Kyrie and Lamb. They use the same/similar projections, we know this. They went about their day normally, making adjustments to projections as news broke. They finalized their lineups and uploaded to DK building on their own optimizer/other than FC. Kawhi news came out 10 minutes after lock. They jumped on FC to swaptimize their GPP lineups since they hand-swapped their cash lineups. They uploaded their new projections but didn’t remove previous projections (it’s a thing). They didn’t have Kyrie or Lamb in the set they uploaded since they weren’t in the lineup. FC may have had them at 0 but the Crowleys still had them at their previous projection. This would lead to their swapped lineups including Kyrie and Lamb.

    This has happened to me in NHL so I know it’s possible. Up to you rest to debate whether both could make the same mistake in the same night.

    For sure man, I quoted your first page post last page. You actually called out his response before he even posted it.

    I think it’s definitely possible (like > 0% chance) to make this mistake. I don’t really think that’s the debate necessarily people are putting forth. The debate is how come both brothers independently made the same mistake, both didn’t notice despite the massive volume they play, and the two only who made this mistake were those two and only those two.

    We have to believe that not only is this mistake possible, the mistake was made, it was made by both brothers on the same night, the mistake was not corrected by either brother, etc. As you said in your first page, doesn’t this make more sense 1 brother made the mistake you/him describe but he gave it to both of them so it ended up being in both their linueps? I feel like that is where the others here are coming from? Correct me if I’m wrong?

  • superstars92

    • 448

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    @gordylamb said...

    Lol @ this logic

    I assume you aren’t familiar with the hs poker community if you think that “competitors not blowing the whistle” is somehow exculpatory in any way. These ecosystems protect their own, time and time again.

    As I explained to him before, Arther Andersen and it’s employees or Bernie Madoff’s investors had far more to lose than some random DFS pro making like what 300-500k a year with -2.5k EV to a single player, and none of them said anything.

  • superstars92

    • 448

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    @apeterson8809 said...

    Nothing like a Papa Chipotle-gate to bring the RG forum back to life

    Where you been man?

  • blenderhd

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    @NoLimits0 said...

    If your previous point instead meant something like “when Kawhi was ruled out at 7:10, we just ran FC late swap and that’s how we got Kyrie and Lamb”, you can ignore 3-5 but 1-2 still hold. It’s totally not clear you meant this but let’s say you did. That means literally what you are saying is you just blindly both ran FCs optimizer without inputting anything on your own (actually supports my post on the other link where I say people just blindly ran optimizers). I mean you are saying two top pros just blindly ran a third party optimizer with a ton of money on the line?? Is that what you are saying?

    Even in this case, how did the optimizer manage to get you 0% Kawhi a player who also theoretically shouldn’t have been Xed out but a ton of Kyrie and Lamb? And like I said that’s not believe because so many people use FC and this glitch only affected you and your brother?

    This highlights what has annoyed me this entire thread, and the reason why I even chimed in here in the first place. Not because I want to “defend” anyone, but simply because the majority of people, many of whom have replied in this thread, do not even seem to have much understanding or even awareness of the processes and tools that MME players use on a daily basis. If you did, these “gotcha” questions and “obvious proof” would look much less credible.

    You’re correct about his explanation, but just the first part. They ran late swap software (LineupHQ has Entries Manager, for instance) at 7:10pm when Kawhi was ruled out for the 10:30pm game. This also means they uploaded a new projection set to this software before doing so. Their own projection set, not the default ones that anyone can use. The projection model they have already openly admitted to sharing. If the proprietary projection data uploaded had Irving & Lamb with a value, and the software didn’t have those players removed from the pool in its late swap tool, then yes, it would have only affected that user.

    They have no Kawhi and a lot of Harrell because that game isn’t until 10:30pm, so they had more than enough time after MNF showdown lock to late swap optimize their lineups (even though the ones with Irving or Lamb stuck are a lost cause). Do people not realize MME players are doing this on DK every night, possibly several times a night, to take advantage of GPP positioning, late news, etc.?

    This still doesn’t take them off the hook of the possibility one of them is playing on both accounts. I know I’m still going to get blasted for “defending” them, but I’m not. I never was. As someone who MMEs contests on DK every day, has their own aggregated projection set, uses all of RG’s tools (which is similar to other software), I was simply providing context on how aspects of this occurrence are quite explainable, and in fact, easily explainable.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @hizzy said...

    Maybe its because RotoGrinders is typically so heavy handed modding these threads you all know, so you have to be so very sweet and light handed. All the while your getting the knife stuck in your back, on a daily basis by these two.

    Simply unfair. You want to know how many posts are deleted so far in this thread? 5. Three of them are posts that were just a ‘gif’, which in a thread of this importance is just a troll post and not needed.

    The other 2 was by a member who understood via PM that his posts were inappropriate and he has since had many posts that are totally in line with our forum rules.

    Since I have become lead moderator of this forum, I am VERY careful to not step in unless a member creates pure speculation, directly attacks another member for no reason, or any of the other forum rules which can be found here: https://rotogrinders.com/pages/rotogrinders-forums-posting-rules-239677

    Yes, I took offense to this. So many old timers come back to RG with that same attitude and it simply isn’t true.

  • hizzy

    I apologize and wasn’t a personal attack on any one individual, maybe things have changed recently. In the past it felt like some of the weight of peoples legitimate concern had to always be lessened out of fear of their comments being removed. Its terrible too because in a way that created an appearance at times that rotogrinders was trying to control the conversation, or manipulate it in a way that could be seen as benefiting themselves.

    This is just as damning as it gets, you’ve had people present time after time how the winning evidence is collusion/cheating, and now you have as good an example of the opposite, a losing set of lineups that were clearly done together. I honestly dont think their is anything left but someone sitting outside where they live and video recording somehow the 1 of them flipping between both accounts and entering all the lineups, uploading csv.‘s (lol) you know what I mean, never going to happen but who knows.

    Have a good day….

  • superstars92

    • 448

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    ^I’m not sure what RG has to do with this actually. I don’t think they are protecting them in any way (at least what I see). Like I don’t think blender is speaking out for them because he works for RG. I think he’s speaking out because he thinks it’s possible to explain what happened to papagates because it must’ve happened to him, regardless if he works for RG or not.

    Although I want to be completely fair here too because blender, your first explanation was like (a few pages ago)

    “I’ll tell you a likely explanation, because it’s happened to me before a select few times, and other MME players would share similar anecdotes. It’s exactly what I thought when the OP first posted this here.

    It’s common to create a “dummy” lineup or complete “dummy” build early just for the sake of having lineups to enter contests. You can take a quick 150 run from your projection model to fill this CSV, and if you haven’t accounted for any injuries, availabilities, minutes, usage, etc. yet, you could easily get a build with a ton of weird players. It doesn’t matter, however, because you’re going to be overwriting it before lock anyways. But maybe 3-4 times in the years I’ve played, the import of the new lineup build CSV has a technical issue, I’ve been 5 seconds too late in uploading right at lock time, and once I was dealing with a personal matter & lost track of the time completely missing lock altogether. It sucks, but it happens. I’ve also seen many top, high volume players once or twice a year end up with a 150 lineup “train” with their dummy lineup in GPPs or some really weird build with deep bench players in it.”

    That’s a VERY different explanation (personal matter, technical issue on import, lost track of time) than the one you are putting forth, so you have to be more consistent I feel like if you want people to believe what you have to say. I mean I can see what you are saying too, but you can’t like swap your reason for why they think they messed up after the fact. Otherwise, you can always find an explanation for anything.

    As for @DFSx42, I don’t think anyone will be switching any time soon. Most people really don’t actually care to see them get banned or anything. Like I honestly don’t care what happens to them. I am in it more to talk about semantics. The most alarming thing I actually found was others suggesting they could possibly be 1 player 2 accounts some nights, and that to me is what really made me surprised.

  • superstars92

    • 448

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    @osuryanf said...

    I’m really waiting for FantasyCruncher members to post more logic on the error discussion, or FantasyCruncher themselves to give commentary before I make up my mind…. but it’s incredibly obvious how bad this looks.

    Hey I’ll help you out by signing up for Fantasy Cruncher and seeing what I can get (I’m being serious, this thread got me thinking about like late swap optimizers). They are apparently only like 250 a year too, not too bad, that’s like less than the Wildcat entry I lose every week when I put in Brian Hill Smith.

    Besides I always wanted to see what happens if I just ran a straight optimizer lineup.

  • blenderhd

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    @superstars92 said...

    That’s a VERY different explanation (personal matter, technical issue on import, lost track of time) than the one you are putting forth, so you have to be more consistent I feel like if you want people to believe what you have to say. I mean I can see what you are saying too, but you can’t like swap your reason for why they think they messed up after the fact. Otherwise, you can always find an explanation for anything.

    I know it is, but PapaGates literally posted his explanation in this thread after I made my hypothesis.

    His explanation is also valid based on my own experiences. I admittedly did not use LineupHQ Entries Manager often last season for late swap because it was in BETA and was prone to bugs quite similar to what he has described (players being included/excluded for no reason). Everything works great now with Entries Manager this season, but I had several times last year where my CSV got jumbled and without paying enough attention, messed up a ton of live lineups.

  • DFSx42

    blenderhd, i love you man, but you’re just creating straw men here

    1. nobody was implying they weren’t brothers or one of them didn’t exist, that was a cheap shot meant to discredit people

    2. it’s absurd to imply the sole responsibility of rooting out collusion and other forms of cheating is in the hands of the top players

    3. those top players are still profiting despite the competition from the burrito brothers, what would truly hurt them is scaring off the recreational players, without whom the ecosystem couldn’t support them – staying silent while others possibly collude as you are profitable is the conservative route here and it could easily be argued it’d be against their own interests to highlight scandal and collusion and thus scare away the recreational players who provide their income

    just like in poker when people actively angle shoot at the tables, it’s very rare for people uninvolved in the hand to get involved even though everyone hates angling because it’s just not normal human condition to get involved, even when you are witnessing something that could harm you too eventually

    the fact that you need to create these straw men instead of dealing with this with a logical argument is because there is none, literally everything points to collusion and anything else is just ignoring common sense

    yes, there may not be indisputable evidence, but there sure is enough evidence to convict in civil court, but much like botnets in poker, the sites are disincentivized from actively policing it because rake is still rake regardless of the source

  • ValuableTrader

    Just like any industry there is always the guys who take it to the max, defrauding their company or profession in some way. We’re all loosing money, but eventually they’ll get caught (doesn’t help us now whatsoever lol). It won’t actually wake DK up until they themselves discover they are losing money, somehow, somewhere.

    Next on American Greed, two daily fantasy sports brothers thought they had it all…

  • superstars92

    • 448

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    So I want to go back to the 1 player 2 account theory others have laid out previously in this thread. As I mentioned previously, the 150 -> 300 collusion is actually almost impossible to prove and really, should that even be a rule? Like that rule itself has a very loose interpretation (what is collusion to begin with? Is it sharing the same model? Because we know that happens, but it’s NOT enforced, so what is collusion anyways then). Right that’s what I was saying earlier, the 150 -> 300 is really a low level thing and it’s up to interpretation. I actually am not sure why DK has this rule because I feel like it’s impossible to enforce to begin with and people can always just explain it off. For the record, ethically, I agree with the idea of this rule, but does anyone feel like it can ever be enforced and interpretable?

    However, the 1 player 2 account would take it to a completely new level. That one has a very strict and not loose definition. It literally means 1 player is playing on 2 different accounts, one under his name and one under someone else’s name. To distinguish it from above, that one literally has an enforceable definition that is NOT up to interpretation. That’s why it’s important here. It doesn’t matter how it’s done – it could be alternating, it could be permenant, whatever, as long as it happens. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, the 1 player 2 account violation has consequences that go far beyond just the entry limit circumvention.

    So that’s why I want to quote Yisman, NoLimits, others in saying that if what they are saying is true, that’s why this specific case is far more unprecedented than any other previous case discussed.

    Again, I am NOT saying this is true or not (circumstancial evidence in a civil court yes this would probably be guilty as DFSx42 points out above but probably not guaranteed in a criminal court), but that’s the key I think to this discussion. I think this is an interesting conversation in general to think about so that’s why I’ve been commenting.

    I probably won’t comment here anymore because I don’t think anything else needs to be said, but that’s just my general view on all this.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @superstars92 said...

    As I mentioned previously, the 150 -> 300 collusion is actually almost impossible to prove and really, should that even be a rule? Like that rule itself has a very loose interpretation (what is collusion to begin with? Is it sharing the same model? Because we know that happens, but it’s NOT enforced, so what is collusion anyways then). Right that’s what I was saying earlier, the 150 -> 300 is really a low level thing and it’s up to interpretation. I actually am not sure why DK has this rule because I feel like it’s impossible to enforce to begin with and people can always just explain it off.

    It’s State (or nationally?) regulated I believe.

  • blenderhd

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    @superstars92 said...

    However, the 1 player 2 account would take it to a completely new level. That one has a very strict and not loose definition. It literally means 1 player is playing on 2 different accounts, one under his name and one under someone else’s name. To distinguish it from above, that one literally has an enforceable definition that is NOT up to interpretation. That’s why it’s important here. It doesn’t matter how it’s done – it could be alternating, it could be permenant, whatever, as long as it happens. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, the 1 player 2 account violation has consequences that go far beyond just the entry limit circumvention.

    I agree with you that this at least would be the key to this discussion.

    But most of the “proof” that’s been presented has just been the misunderstanding or unawareness of how MME players use tools and the issues that can potentially arise on occasion when doing so. That’s why I continually point out that they both use the same projection data. So the whole “what are the chances that only these two” go out the window as a valid argument of the case. If the data was where the issue started from, of course it would only affect just them.

    One person operating two accounts is the issue. Proof of this, however, would likely only exist in the server logs at DraftKings itself.

  • Southie777

    Don’t really know which side I come down on here, I definitely don’t trust those two, but I’m also pretty sure that you’re never going to catch them red-handed. But just a quick question, I think I pretty much understand most of the difference between collusion and just bouncing ideas off each other. I have no problem with me and a buddy talking over the course of the week about who we like in NFL that Sunday, who’s a good play, etc. I think that it’s not considered collusion, even if we develop a core together, correct? I think that’s a gray area, where you’re approaching it, but whatever. I think it does, however, rise to the level of collusion, if we agree to both play the same core and then work out who’s going to play who, so that there’s no overlap with the rest of our player pool, so that we can then maximize the number of unique lineups and, therefore, our chances of taking down a GPP. Just out of curiosity. I have very few friends who actually play DFS and even those who do, it’s very minimal, because they recognize it for the sucker’s bet that it is for the vast majority of us. I’d love if we could get rid of all the optimizers, etc. everyone built their own lineups by hand, based on actually knowing a sport, all GPP’s were capped at 10-20 max entry, etc. But I realize this is all a pipe-dream and we’d probably all be playing for $500 top prizes, so just ignore me, haha!

  • stv1313

    @blenderhd said...

    That’s why I continually point out that they both use the same projection data. So the whole “what are the chances that only these two” go out the window as a valid argument of the case. If the data was where the issue started from, of course it would only affect just them.

    These statements aren’t completely true. In this case, everyone who used FantasyCrunch (post-lock) were given the same projections for Kyrie and Jeremy Lamb. If the facts – as presented by papagates – are true, it appears that every other user (including the brothers) who used FantasyCrunch were given “bad” projections for Kyrie and Lamb post lock.

    So, the whole “what are the chances that only these two” seems to hold merit. These two brothers – and only these two brothers – didn’t change the projections for Kyrie and Lamb. Everyone – including the brothers – who used FantasyCrunch post lock shared that bad data for Kyrie and Irving.

    Am I missing something?

  • superstars92

    • 448

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    @bhdevault said...

    It’s State (or nationally?) regulated I believe.

    Ah gotcha that makes so much more sense. I always believed in the principle of the “no collusion” rule, but we all know it’s not really enforceable and no one knows the true interpretation. For example, Southie’s response above illustrates this. No one knows what “collusion” even means. Is it the same model? Is it to create 300 entries to circumvent the 150 entry limit? Is it just bouncing ideas off of each other? I mean it’s litearlly impossible to prove or even define, even though the spirit of the rule may sound great.

    That’s why the 1 person 2 accounts things makes it an entirely different debate and an extreme example. When I say 1 person 2 accounts, I don’t mean like 100% of the time. Even if it happens 1 out of 10 days (like if Person A wants to enjoy a nice dinner and still wants to submit and monitor his entries 1/10 days, he could tell Person B hey cover for me today), that still falls under this.

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