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  • srolleDFS

    crazygabey was interviewed in the latest new york times hit piece. he said that what was happening between some players of varying skill levels was akin to rape (and pillaging). when someone loses $5 in dfs they end up without that $5. nothing else happens. they may have to scale their next bar tab back to $45, or maybe suffer some other inconvenience of being $5 poorer. when someone is raped, something much much more signifcant happens. the two are not comparable, and its not ok to triviaize rape by comapring them.

    maybe gabey thinks they are? maybe he hasnt actually ever thought about the words he uses? i dont know but its offensive.

    Link to article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/magazine/how-the-daily-fantasy-sports-industry-turns-fans-into-suckers.html?_r=0

  • dailyfinancialsports

    @detroittigers44 said...

    Now distinguishing what it takes to be considered a true “pro” is what you would need to figure out.

    That is where the problem lies. Of course you can look at some like Maxdalury and say, “yeah he is a pro”. But what if someone hits a $400,000 top prize, and all of the sudden they are playing with $40,000 a night? Are they a pro?

    Would it be feasible to implement a leveling system on a site, and give users the ability to choose cash games or tournaments that are restricted to a certain range of levels (ie a level 1-10 50/50) that they are comfortable playing against? That way Joe Schmo who starts out at level 1 can enter a level 1-5 restricted 50/50 or double up and they would know they are not going to get matched up with a level 1000 maxdalury.

    It wouldn’t be fair to “level up” strictly through winnings, because then the guy who gets lucky and wins $25k on his first night would be stuck playing against “pros” right out of the gate. So I guess the leveling system would have to be heavily weighted on the number of lineups entered. This might also discourage people from using scripts to max-enter, because if you are entering 5000 lineups a week you will level up really fast and will be forced to play cash games only with guys in your level range. Basically the leveling system would single out high volume players and make them play against each other.

    It would be similar to video games that prevent you, as a low level player, from facing players that are a much higher level than you, while also giving you the option to play against high level players at your own risk. High level players would not have the option to play against you if you are a low level player.

  • detroittigers44

    Maybe let the player themselves help determine some of the qualifications as well.. It can be based on just one big tournament win as we have seen some new players luckbox into a huge win in the first week after signing up. Are the maxdulary’s of the world really making that much money off head to heads again lower players? Seems like he would be fine classifying himself as a pro and taking on whatever restrictions the site sees fit since it seems like he kills it regularly in big tournaments.

  • smallANDflaccid

    What about people who are fully aware they will probably lose, but the whole reason they are playing is to take a stab at beating a “pro” – ala poker’s World Series and things like that.

    Why does the site need to nanny people? Why not just have something saying akin to Etrade where in order to sign up you have to sign something you read the thing saying “hey, lots of people lose a lot of money doing this, are you aware of this and still want to do it?”

  • detroittigers44

    People can still take on Pro’s if they want the challenge, I am just stating that there needs to be some sort of way to identify that that player is indeed a “pro” so they can’t claim they had no idea they were facing one of the best in the world.

  • SmokestackLightning

    Wallach is saying a decision may come today for NY and LSL reports DK is subleasing its penthouse there.

    Can’t say that fills me with optimism for how this is going to turn out—in New York, anyway.

  • dailyfinancialsports

    @smallANDflaccid said...

    What about people who are fully aware they will probably lose, but the whole reason they are playing is to take a stab at beating a “pro” – ala poker’s World Series and things like that.

    In my post I said they can choose to play in games with no level restrictions at their own risk.

    Look, I don’t see the reason the sites need to nanny people either. There are no guarantees in life, and there are no guarantees in DFS. If you jump headfirst into something without doing your research then I think you deserve to suffer whatever consequences result. However, when the two alternatives are DFS continues its current ways and ceases to exist, or DFS implements safeguards against the types of things people complain about such as in this article and continues to exist…I’d rather go with the second alternative.

  • bjschram

    @CrazyGabey said...

    I received far more attention each day when I hosted a show with thousands of viewers. How is this even a theory? I wanted 500 angry lunatics spewing venom all over my timeline? As opposed to hosting a live show? C’mon you guys. Yes I’m brand-conscious, and yes I have a background in social media marketing. That doesn’t mean I’m clinically insane.

    Its a valid theory, because anybody intelligent and focused solely on improving the industry, would have the foresight to handle the situation and attention in a way that would actually improve the industry. Instead, we have someone basking in the spotlight drawing attention away from the very issue they are addressing.

    Its like watching teen mom. A show originally intended to bring attention to teen pregnancy change into a sideshow about the fame-hungry cast trying to do anything and everything to extend their 15 seconds of fame.

  • ActionJunkie

    Gabey- After the article, I’m mostly only hearing issues rasied about scripting. Why not focus on that more in the article? Why sensationalize it with mostly trivial and “entitlement sentiments?” Seems like Fanduel and DK are getting very little credit for having matchup blockers, game limits and single-entry GPPs/Cash games which are huge for player protection.

    It still seems like the article is doing more hurt than good. You need specifics with this stuff otherwise it get’s dumbed down to a gambling vs. anti-gambling argument.

  • catt0025

    @eKing said...

    There are more than a few users out there who are using scripts to auto-scoop zero to little win users in h2h on FD. This is one of the biggest problems in DFS, but often overlooked cause everyone is too busy worrying about “max” entry gpps. Just cause the issue doesn’t apply to you directly (same for me) doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye and let it continue.

    There needs to be restrictions on H2Hs and 3-10 man leagues. Yes, one could have 10000 wins and 30000 losses which would make FD wins a little useless aside from noticing experience (which doesn’t always translate to “pro”). Someone could also have 100 wins with a 100k in profit and therefore should be unable to classify as a “beginner”.

    FD needs to apply their internal data or give users more options, such as the ability to apply their our own user-restrictions within their games….. and on a personal note, I strongly dislike the same user having the ability to join all of my 3-mans. One per person is fine.

    I’ve never written a script and am just reading this thread post by post and have no idea which side of the spectrum I want to stand on… but my question is this – couldn’t you build a script the same way others are supposedly doing it now to scoop/bum-hunt the 0-low win ‘noobs’ but make it so that it calculates said winning % of the player? You would think if someone had 10,000 wins but 30,000 losses that would absolutely be +EV for the “shark”…. Just wondering where you draw the line at bumhunting because I dont think it is as straight forward as scooping the noobs w/ 0 wins. — Obviously i could be mistaken having not built a script or researched it at all, just wanted to throw my thoughts in the ring of fire here.

  • smallANDflaccid

    @catt0025 said...

    couldn’t you build a script the same way others are supposedly doing it now to scoop/bum-hunt the 0-low win ‘noobs’ but make it so that it calculates said winning % of the player?

    They are reading data FD provides which only notes wins (sites purposely avoid showing data like winning percentage or ROI because they don’t want to either embarrass or discourage users).

    To have the percentage, they would need to keep a side database of times they have played this person and if they won/lost, which would both require a larger sample than “new player” and also would only be representative of their interactions vs total (although in that case, more accurate/relevant).

    You could also have a script look them up against RG rankings, but that would only show that they play more and GPPs, but that still doesn’t denote good/bad, vs just “not new” – and even if it did show “good” it is only GPP relevant.

    DFS Gold (I think that is the site) tracks top wins, but doesn’t update a lot, and again is GPP-centric.

  • BB4E

    @srolleDFS said...

    have u considered taking responsibility and apologizing?

    Jesus Christ, he doesn’t have to apologize for anything he said. He meant what he said. Get over it.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @FunkyColdModella said...

    Why would sites want to limit scripting as it would inhibit large volume players from entering more thereby increasing the rake?

    It may be best for them Short Term but in the Long Term it deters industry growth. Like I said, there should have been a surge after Week 14. There wasn’t. That’s telling. There’s a potential market of 55-60 million and DFS is only getting 10% of that if that. Most years past, season long folks looked to DFS as a way to extend their seasons. It had momentum. Now those potential newbie season long folk are deterred. It doesn’t take a Wharton MBA educated Marketing expert to figure out why.

    Reason Nigel Eccles is calling for regulation is the industry will trip over itself and ultimately fail if nothing is done.

  • MikeMineo

    @CrazyGabey said...

    I contributed quotes. I had no control over how the piece was marketed. Ironically, the constant tweets and comments about “rape and pillage” likely contributed to more people being “triggered” by those words.

    plus, emac doesn’t seem to know what “click bait” means, as a single word in the middle of a 2000+ word article (that’s not even in the title or description) simply isn’t that. as a writer himself, he should know by now not to use a word if he doesn’t know its meaning or proper context.

    perhaps srolle unintentionally made it “click bait” with the absurd semantics-driven initial intent of this thread, but neither gabey nor the author intended the word to be used as “click bait”; saying so is laughably off-base and disconnected from the actual meaning of the term.

    not sure how the usage of “rape and pillage” in the middle of a lengthy article has any relevance to, in emac’s words, “not have been nearly as effective click-bait, sadly” if it hadn’t been used. just sour grapes as usual.

    if the term was actually in the title or stood out in the article preview to someone BEFORE they clicked on the NYT article, THEN the argument for it being “click bait” would make some sense. as it stands, it’s just a single word used in the middle of the article, with only people who would rather ignore DFS’ issues or are financially incentivized by its current format having a problem with its usage. it’s highly probable that the only audience “offended” by the word is limited to the usual cast of characters on RG.

    as for “self-promotion”, this isn’t doing much for Gabey in terms of lucrative prospects for DFS employment, so the notion is again absurd. if anything, he seems to be biting a bullet and risking his future DFS employment to shed some light on the industry – seems more selfless than self-promotional to me. if he ever cuts a check out of this I will gladly call myself wrong.

    financial-laden bias is certainly a strong force in formulating nonsensical opinions.

  • smallANDflaccid

    Just for clarification, what is the Bad Thing the scrapers do? (serious question)
    Find new players and pick them when they put out unjoined H2H?

    But a human can do that too, so this just makes it faster…

    So the issue is not with the scripter/scraper, but the rate at which they can mimic what a human does?

    So shouldn’t the real debate be “How fast are we allowed to join games?”

    If you exceed that rate, then it doesn’t let you join.
    (technically it should do the same thing password misses should do, and progressively slow down the period before you can do the next try – so you fail, and it waits three seconds before you can join again – if you try and fail again in that period, then you wait 6 seconds, etc)

    The issue remains that scripting/scraping allows human actions faster than humans, and there is no cost to them associated with that speed.

    Incur a cost and it fixes the issue so that humans and scripts have the same rate limit.

  • RangerC

    @wrr954 said...

    FanDuel allows players to do mass changes on rosters. If Player A is injured, I can change him out of my 20 lineups with Player B in a matter of seconds.

    What’s your point?

    Wow…

    Anderson was 3K (min salary)… there was not another starter anywhere close to that price. The only way you can quick replace is if there is a comparable player already in the LU (which there obviously was not). On top of that, to win you had to max salary as you needed Monroe, Lebron, Bledsoe to win as they all went off. I remember this well as I won the $5 Layup on Fanduel with an Anderson LU on this slate. I had a similar LU on Draftkings, assumed I at least got into the top 20, checked, and saw that I was behind 70+ maxdalury lineups. Also, these LU were obviously generated then entered with a script as there is hardly big $$ on the turbo slate and the only tournament that you could even enter 200 LU in was the $3 sharpshooter.

    Now, I know that maxdalury is basically the house and that I have to deal with the nonsense of 200 entries, from the biggest player in the industry, optimized for late news even in a ~7000 player $3 tournament, and I still choose to play. I don’t feel cheated (I mainly play DK/FD for fun anyway, and win most $$ on other sites), but I saw exactly how a newer player could feel completely scammed.

    The problem is that DK had a choice back when scripts were against TOS to make a decision that helped 99% of players, they went the other way and now we are constantly paying the price – negative press, class-action, and of course the attack from AGs. It’s funny that online poker is now banning all HUDS/scripts and Bovada (illegal/offshore site) has anonymous poker but DFS seems to be going the other way.

  • FunkyColdModella

    The funniest aspect of this entire thread is a guy being offended by the word ‘rape’ being used and in the next breath telling people to quit whining about scripts/scraping/losing. Only on the internet……..

  • tonytone1908

    @smallANDflaccid said...

    Just for clarification, what is the Bad Thing the scrapers do? (serious question)
    Find new players and pick them when they put out unjoined H2H?

    But a human can do that too, so this just makes it faster…

    So the issue is not with the scripter/scraper, but the rate at which they can mimic what a human does?

    So shouldn’t the real debate be “How fast are we allowed to join games?”

    If you exceed that rate, then it doesn’t let you join.
    (technically it should do the same thing password misses should do, and progressively slow down the period before you can do the next try – so you fail, and it waits three seconds before you can join again – if you try and fail again in that period, then you wait 6 seconds, etc)

    The issue remains that scripting/scraping allows human actions faster than humans, and there is no cost to them associated with that speed.

    Incur a cost and it fixes the issue so that humans and scripts have the same rate limit.

    Here you go. Can’t enter more than 1 contest per minute, or 5, whatever. I can go for that. So why did nobody come up with this before? Everyone cries change change change but has no solution for the problem. People want change but don’t want to do anything about it. Like people who want a law change but they don’t bother to vote.

    I think you would have gotten a lot farther if everyone had came up with a solution and you all emailed FD, which honestly seems like the only site people are bitching about. But the only thing you all can agree on is simply “we need change”. You can start petitions to send to your state senator but you can’t come up with a petition to send to FD themselves?

    Oh that’s right, we’re lazy americans. We need the government to fight for us because we can’t do it ourselves. Then you cry later because the change you wanted didn’t work out for you. After 9/11 people wanted safety from terrorists. So what did we get? The Patriot Act. The TSA. Those sweet ass xray machines. We get to walk through body scanners barefoot and with our pants falling to the floor. We get our cellphones and computers constantly monitored. And did we ever catch any terrorists? Nope! So be careful what crying to the government will get you when you could have handled the situation on your own.

    I know, I know, we complained on this forum. Well guess what, this forum is not FD. There is no guarantee or expectation that they would respond here. HOWEVER, at least an email to them would have to be recognized in some form or another. Unfortunately this forum is such a small percentage of actual players that it may not have mattered anyway.

    Again, people vote with their dollars. If you complain, nothing changes, than go somewhere else. This isn’t Demolition Man where all restaurants are Taco Bell. You have a choice. Want a matchup blocker? Play DK. Nobody is forcing you to stay where you are.

    I’ve been a waiter for years and got tired of the complaint “Every time I come here I order the same thing and they always make it wrong”. You know why? Because it’s not on the menu. You took our menu, asked for something we don’t make simply because “you have all the items, you can make it”, when that’s not the case. So guess what, you keep coming back for more and continuing to complain when you could have ordered something we actually make. Or you could go to another restaurant that does things exactly the way you want them. Wouldn’t that make more sense?

  • MikeMineo

    @tonytone1908 said...

    HOWEVER, at least an email to them would have to be recognized in some form or another.

    I do agree people should speak with their $$ and explore alternatives. Emailing FD about large-scale concerns beyond your personal account, however, is an utter waste of time.

  • tonytone1908

    @PJGuin23 said...

    Reason Nigel Eccles is calling for regulation is the industry will trip over itself and ultimately fail if nothing is done.

    Which it’s totally within their right to do if that is what they want. This isn’t power & industry. This isn’t the banking system. This is freaking Napster man! This is so close to daytrading it has been compared to as such. There was a nice 4 or 5 year boom where it was all the rage. People made some money for a while, others lost it, it went away after a few years. The country isn’t going to suddenly stop running if DFS is eliminated. Oh that’s right. We want it to stick around. That’s never going to happen. Stop kidding yourself.

    But can someone explain to me how blocking H2H’s or playing lesser skilled players is going to make you a better one? Or even that that would make you win or win more often? Don’t you get better at something by going up against stricter competition?

  • dude_abides7

    @tonytone1908 said...

    I’ve been a waiter for years and got tired of the complaint “Every time I come here I order the same thing and they always make it wrong”. You know why? Because it’s not on the menu. You took our menu, asked for something we don’t make simply because “you have all the items, you can make it”, when that’s not the case. So guess what, you keep coming back for more and continuing to complain when you could have ordered something we actually make. Or you could go to another restaurant that does things exactly the way you want them. Wouldn’t that make more sense?

    - In the hospitality industry the customer is “always right”.

    - In the DFS industry the customer is a pawn used in any way the sites deem conducive to maximizing their bottom line.

  • winsome

    @tonytone1908 said...

    If you won a mil and a half would YOU stop playing? Didn’t think so. Next in line please!

    Lol. Did I say “stop playing”? What I was implying was that a semi intelligent non degenerate gambler type would exercise good REAL LIFE bankroll management and withdraw the majority of the money and NOT try to become a “pro” which is what many of us have seen happen over the years. Personally I’m up well over 6 figures across the industry and still play with the same bankroll as that which I started. As a result I could play for the rest of my life and die in the DFS black.

    But you keep on assuming it’s about you, me or any other single person. It’s about consumer (noob) protection at this point and the government will not differentiate between a casual player or a high roller. They will do what they always do (which I can’t stand) and protect the ignorant because the rest of us can fend for ourselves.

  • BB4E

    @dude_abides7 said...

    - In the DFS industry the customer is a pawn used in any way the sites deem conducive to maximizing their bottom line.

    And when you owe investors hundreds of millions, you’ll do anything to pay them back.. even if it comes at the expense of your own consumer base.

  • tonytone1908

    @MikeMineo said...

    Try it and let us know when you hear back with anything substantive lol.

    Spoiler: nothing will come out of it, nor would it even make sense on FD’s business end to acknowledge it.

    I do agree people should speak with their $$ and explore alternatives. Emailing FD about large-scale concerns beyond your personal account, however, is an utter waste of time. They listen to their investors and upper management, not you.

    Well now they’ll get to listen to the government, which will just stop DFS completely. Is that a better alternative for you?

    The government will say you need to do this, this, and that or you’re gone. The sites will say OK, we’ll file a lawsuit against you and we’ll let the courts decide, until then it’s business as usual. Four years from now the lawsuit will be over, the sites will decide it’s not cost effective to stay in business with the demands the government wants, and just shuts down.

    Happy now?

    What other scenario with government involved do people foresee happening because that’s the only one I can think of.

  • tonytone1908

    @PJGuin23 said...

    Like I said, there should have been a surge after Week 14. There wasn’t. That’s telling.

    With articles like this are you surprised?

  • hambazaza

    RG Blog Program Manager, 2014 RG Party Beer Pong Champion

    • Blogger of the Month

    • Beer Pong Champion

    @PJGuin23 said...

    It may be best for them Short Term but in the Long Term it deters industry growth. Like I said, there should have been a surge after Week 14. There wasn’t. That’s telling. There’s a potential market of 55-60 million and DFS is only getting 10% of that if that. Most years past, season long folks looked to DFS as a way to extend their seasons. It had momentum. Now those potential newbie season long folk are deterred. It doesn’t take a Wharton MBA educated Marketing expert to figure out why.

    Reason Nigel Eccles is calling for regulation is the industry will trip over itself and ultimately fail if nothing is done.

    i dont know the numbers, but have we ever seen surges after week 14? or is the surge usually just to start the season then things slow down as the season progresses?

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