INDUSTRY FORUM

  • srolleDFS

    crazygabey was interviewed in the latest new york times hit piece. he said that what was happening between some players of varying skill levels was akin to rape (and pillaging). when someone loses $5 in dfs they end up without that $5. nothing else happens. they may have to scale their next bar tab back to $45, or maybe suffer some other inconvenience of being $5 poorer. when someone is raped, something much much more signifcant happens. the two are not comparable, and its not ok to triviaize rape by comapring them.

    maybe gabey thinks they are? maybe he hasnt actually ever thought about the words he uses? i dont know but its offensive.

    Link to article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/magazine/how-the-daily-fantasy-sports-industry-turns-fans-into-suckers.html?_r=0

  • dude_abides7

    @tonytone1908 said...

    With articles like this are you surprised?

    I think you’re given the viral footprint of this article (and its affect) a little more credit than it deserves.

  • tonytone1908

    @dude_abides7 said...

    - In the hospitality industry the customer is “always right”.

    - In the DFS industry the customer is a pawn used in any way the sites deem conducive to maximizing their bottom line.

    Funny because one of my favorite managers ever asked me in my interview if the customer is always right. I said 99% of the time. Some people you can do everything in the world for and they’re still not happy but you can still try. I got hired on the spot.

    Back to the topic though. You have alternatives, play somewhere that suits you and gives you what you want instead of asking for it from someone who clearly doesn’t want to give it to you.

    If your playing DFS makes you feel like a pawn, maybe it’s time to find something else to do?

  • srolleDFS

    @BB4E said...

    And when you owe investors hundreds of millions, you’ll do anything to pay them back.. even if it comes at the expense of your own consumer base.

    thats not really how the venture capital investments that dk and fd normally work. a typical scenario for their inventors making a return on their money would be for dk and fd to IPO, at which point they would have an option to sell their stock as part of the IPO. their investments may be structured to act as debt, but only in a scenario where dk or fd have failed as businesses.

  • smallANDflaccid

    @srolleDFS said...

    thats not really how the venture capital investments that dk and fd normally work. a typical scenario for their inventors making a return on their money would be for dk and fd to IPO, at which point they would have an option to sell their stock as part of the IPO. their investments may be structured to act as debt, but only in a scenario where dk or fd have failed as businesses.

    Unless a private equity deal, it is rarely even debt in the traditional sense.
    Usually they get shares and depending which class of shares they have they may have voting rights and rights over other shares when bankruptcy comes.
    But yes they aren’t focused on that vs a multiple return at IPO on their initial buyin.

    If private equity and not VC, there are two debt layers usually involved to leverage the deal, which allows them (the PE firm) to make higher profits at lower risks if setup correctly (sounds counter-intuitive when you are leveraged to not be taking on more risk, but it can be setup that way).
    Those debt layers originally are the PE firm going to a bank and taking out the debt, and then the second layer is in the company they buy, which is used to payoff the initial bank debt.

    There are then sometimes sort of transitional layers that are sort of both PE and VC.
    The reason the second case is rarely relevant in VC terms is that they often invest in non-profitable things (at least at the time of the investment) and the second case requires a profitable company so as to make payments into the debt.

  • MV007

    @tonytone1908 said...

    Funny because one of my favorite managers ever asked me in my interview if the customer is always right. I said 99% of the time. Some people you can do everything in the world for and they’re still not happy but you can still try. I got hired on the spot.

    Back to the topic though. You have alternatives, play somewhere that suits you and gives you what you want instead of asking for it from someone who clearly doesn’t want to give it to you.

    If your playing DFS makes you feel like a pawn, maybe it’s time to find something else to do?

    I agree with this which is why I’m considering leaving. I think the larger question though, and this relates to regulation discussions, is what to do about pawns who do not know they are pawns.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @hambazaza said...

    i dont know the numbers, but have we ever seen surges after week 14? or is the surge usually just to start the season then things slow down as the season progresses?

    I noticed a surge after SLFL last year. There was one this year after mid season but not as strong.

    Unscientifically, recruiting SL only folks is harder this year than it ever has been. Even some long time SL players I know agree with Schneiderman.

    The Siena poll out of NYS regarding DFS was also troubling. Only group opposed are 18 to 34 year Olds and that was by a thread. Ds and Rs alike agreed with him. Males only slightly more in favor than women but still agree with him. The numbers of public opinion are not on our side.

  • dude_abides7

    @tonytone1908 said...

    Back to the topic though. You have alternatives, play somewhere that suits you and gives you what you want instead of asking for it from someone who clearly doesn’t want to give it to you.

    If your playing DFS makes you feel like a pawn, maybe it’s time to find something else to do?

    I would agree with you if there weren’t two sets of rules here. It is not as if the sites are saying, “this is what it is. Take it or leave it.” That would be fine. I would be right where you are with this.

    Right now they are saying, “these are the rules” and then allowing some players to break them (or work around them) and allowing other players not to. Remember, script use is permission based in many cases. This creates a black curtain of non-transparency. Who is using them, who isn’t. What are you saying is OK, what are you saying isn’t. The sites won’t divulge this. That adds fuel to the fire.

    Kcannon was called out for auto-scooping and admitted it. The caveat…FD told him his script was fine! (Mods, please don’t flag this post, in actuality I am supporting Kcannon here because he was doing what FD said he could do. NOT HIS FAULT) So we have cases where FD allowed someone to use a script that specifically went against their TOS. This discussion starts and ends with transparency.

    We don’t want an “even” playing field. Better players will and should win. No participation trophies needed. What most want is a “fair” playing field.

    As for alternatives, I personally have just tailored my play to avoid these pitfalls. I play primary FD where there are many 100 man leagues (3 entry max) and pair those with medium sized GPP. But then again, this is not about my play…it is about the industry appearing to be on the up and up and sticking around as supposed to being shut down.

  • misfit

    @kaetorade said...

    I don’t listen to the podcast much, but the criticism of Dan is unfair. You have to realize that he’s paid to be positive and promote DFS. Unless there’s irrefutable evidence to the contrary, it’s not his job to look under every rug.

    Also, I wouldn’t be so quick to put the hero tag on someone that considers himself a ‘DFS Traitor’ and has the balls to profile himself with a whistle. That type of narcissism is much more appalling.

    No, it is a totally FAIR criticism of Dan.
    If he wants to act like the voice of the industry and offer what are supposed to be personal opinions but in reality those opinions are just bought and paid for by a site, that is a shill! Everything he says does nothing but back the sites and pros even when the obvious evidence points elsewhere.
    The criticism is spot on and very fair!
    As for Gabbey being a DFS traitor? Come on. you have to realize that is sarcasim?
    He is only a traitor to those he was once PAID to be aligned with before. The Pro’s who take advantage of the free range and want nothing changed! Again, the guys who say they drive the industry so they expect the industry to allow them to run rampant and do as they wish without recourse! No matter how bad the violations they wish it swept under the rug.
    Anyone who speaks out for what is right is considered a traitor by their standards. They do not wish any bad at all be pointed out because they were the ones doing it!
    The breaking of ANY rules sways the results of a contest. By allowing rules to be broken the sites granted an unknown advantage to certain players they deemed worthy but not others. How is that an even playing field in any way? How are you people not screaming bloody murder over this and the fact that contest were won by players who the sites gave an advantage too? Why are they deeming who gets to break the rules and who does not? Will they start to decide what rules are ok to break and what are not?
    What is the point of rules at all? Are they just for the 90%? The 10% can do as they please?
    If you really see standing up against being screwed as being a traitor then you are part of the problem. Take another sip of the Cool aid and bend on over!

  • stoptheinsanity

    @MV007 said...

    I agree with this which is why I’m considering leaving. I think the larger question though, and this relates to regulation discussions, is what to do about pawns who do not know they are pawns.

    Do you realize anytime you purchase anything not necessary to survive you are somebody’s pawn? Does that stop you from doing what you want with your money? If people enjoy playing they will play. If they do not enjoy it they will stop.

  • smallANDflaccid

    If playing DFS makes you feel like a pawn, maybe you should find someone else to play for you.

  • MV007

    @stoptheinsanity said...

    Do you realize anytime you purchase anything not necessary to survive you are somebody’s pawn? Does that stop you from doing what you want with your money? If people enjoy playing they will play. If they do not enjoy it they will stop.

    Thats a cute life philosophy and not a comparison I would make to the current discussion. As for your final point. If a person loses 5 dollars because professionals are using scripts then that person is out 5 dollars regardless of whether they choose to then stop due to lack of enjoyment. Whether they go down a rabbit hole and lose thousands doesn’t matter to me. Any amount of money lost due to the sites bending the rules to benefit a select few is a major issue for me.

  • bowens1984

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    • RG Season Champion: NBA

    @tonytone1908 said...

    Yeah, everyone assumes you had complete and total control about how that article was written apparently. Guess they thought you would have final edit on the article?

    Anyone with any common sense knew how the article would be written to be negative against DFS, Gabey just wanted his name out there to feed his own ego.

  • cjstetzer

    Hi Brad

  • tonytone1908

    @MV007 said...

    Thats a cute life philosophy and not a comparison I would make to the current discussion. As for your final point. If a person loses 5 dollars because professionals are using scripts then that person is out 5 dollars regardless of whether they choose to then stop due to lack of enjoyment. Whether they go down a rabbit hole and lose thousands doesn’t matter to me. Any amount of money lost due to the sites bending the rules to benefit a select few is a major issue for me.

    How do you know someone is losing because of a script? Maybe they just suck? Someone else’s script does not guarantee them a win or you a loss. Has nobody ever ever ever beaten a pro? Of course they have. Why do people think beating a pro is impossible?

    The reality is it doesn’t matter one bit. You both need your players to perform, or for one, actually play and not get scratched or hurt during the game. Sure they may put themselves in a better position but isn’t that exactly what you’re doing when you enter a 2nd, or a 3rd, or 50th LU in a GPP?

    Aren’t you considered a successful H2H player if you win 60% of the time? So say these guys do all this and still only win 70% of the time. They’re still losing a third of every game they play! So you see people still do win no matter what your perception of it is.

    Now say FD were to give you a list of who can script. Then you try to join some H2H’s and see that every game available is from someone who is scripting. Would you play? Probably not. Or maybe you would think “I’m gonna try and beat this guy anyway”. Would having this list keep you from getting scooped if you posted your own anyways? Of course not. So what would eventually happen? People will just stop playing H2H’s and they’ll go away altogether.

  • wcuball29

    I’m not sure whether this was mentioned or not, but the only thing I was able to pull out of that article is that Gabey needs to get out of his room and go enjoy a little sunlight.

  • tonytone1908

    @bowens1984 said...

    Anyone with any common sense knew how the article would be written to be negative against DFS, Gabey just wanted his name out there to feed his own ego.

    I was referring to the “rape and pillage” part. I’m pretty sure about 5% of what he and the writer spoke about ended up in the article. Who’s to know which parts would actually end up in it? Then instead of focusing on the facts that every one wanted brought up like he did, they knock him for the way he did it.

    Seriously? Will you people never be happy?

    Reminds me of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. You want your safety and security but you’re unhappy with the way he provides it. Come on.

  • bowens1984

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    • RG Season Champion: NBA

    @tonytone1908 said...

    I was referring to the “rape and pillage” part. I’m pretty sure about 5% of what he and the writer spoke about ended up in the article. Who’s to know which parts would actually end up in it? Then instead of focusing on the facts that every one wanted brought up like he did, they knock him for the way he did it.

    Seriously? Will you people never be happy?

    Reminds me of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. You want your safety and security but you’re unhappy with the way he provides it. Come on.

    How did this article do anything to improve DFS?

  • dude_abides7

    @tonytone1908 said...

    Reminds me of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. You want your safety and security but you’re unhappy with the way he provides it. Come on.

    “You want Gabey on that wall!! You need Gabey on that wall!”

    “Did you order that hit piece??” “Did you order that hit piece??”

    “You’re Goddamned right I did!!!”

  • tonytone1908

    @bowens1984 said...

    How did this article do anything to improve DFS?

    I don’t think it did but I assume that was the intent, to bring the change the people have been asking for.

  • stoptheinsanity

    Just reread the article. Let me see if I have this right. Writer dude played DFS. He didn’t become a millionaire. Then writer dude reached out to Gabey to find out why. Gabey told him it was because some people that play DFS are better than others that play DFS. They both determined that sites should not allow people to beat other people. And to allow it to happen is totes evil. Then Gabey posed awkwardly and had somebody take pictures of him. Is that the gist of it?

  • tonytone1908

    @dude_abides7 said...

    “You want Gabey on that wall!! You need Gabey on that wall!”

    “Did you order that hit piece??” “Did you order that hit piece??”

    “You’re Goddamned right I did!!!”

    Almost exactly how I pictured it lol

  • coach232

    • Blogger of the Month

    I just wish DFS sites would have more single entry GPP’s

  • tonytone1908

    @coach232 said...

    I just wish DFS sites would have more single entry GPP’s

    On the top of this page alone there are 8 different sites you could play at. If you entered 2 GPP’s in each that would be 16 total. How many more do you want?

    Not that that has anything to do with our topic.

  • jd0505

    asd

  • firesouth72

    @jd0505 said...

    It was clear long before this that Gabey is a sad little narcissist looking out for nothing but himself…but is anyone truly denying that FD and DK have, at times, kowtowed to high-volume players because they believe that doing so is in the sites’ best interest?

    The sites probably assumed (perhaps, correctly) that the vast majority of minnows would either never notice, never care or never adjust their behavior. Ultimately, the sites suffered because of horseshit media reports that had nothing to do with the legitimate criticisms that intelligent DFS players have.

    Thus, I’m not a fan of DFS community members bashing the sites in interviews with mainstream media outlets, especially the ones (NYT, in particular) that have no interest in giving even the slightest bit of thought to abandoning their blind anti-DFS stances.

    FD and DK deserve plenty of criticism for certain things (some of which Gabey mentions), but it’s ultimately in our collective best interest to be very cautious with the timing, extent and placement of the criticism.

    Also, please stop defending Gabey for using “rape” to describe the DFS ecosystem. The current connotation of the word overwhelmingly invokes sexual violence, and a lot of very smart people who I care about would be offended/annoyed by this kind of use.

    People you care about would be offended? First off, so what? Because you, and said friends and family can’t rationally deal with your own emotions the rest of us need to walk on eggshells? What an absolutely pathetic and childish way to live. Can somone please start a thread where all these fragile folks can list their trigger words and phrases, and also ones their friends and family MIGHT also find offensive.

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