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  • srolleDFS

    crazygabey was interviewed in the latest new york times hit piece. he said that what was happening between some players of varying skill levels was akin to rape (and pillaging). when someone loses $5 in dfs they end up without that $5. nothing else happens. they may have to scale their next bar tab back to $45, or maybe suffer some other inconvenience of being $5 poorer. when someone is raped, something much much more signifcant happens. the two are not comparable, and its not ok to triviaize rape by comapring them.

    maybe gabey thinks they are? maybe he hasnt actually ever thought about the words he uses? i dont know but its offensive.

    Link to article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/magazine/how-the-daily-fantasy-sports-industry-turns-fans-into-suckers.html?_r=0

  • piommi

    I cringe every time I see an article about DFS in the mainstream news. This article makes some very good points – and I think as players we understand this. What I fear most are the people outside of the industry who fail to understand the details of what is being discussed.
    FD/DK are to blame for their own mess – mainly through there own greed. Marketing it in a way that says any guy off the street can win tons of money was the wrong way to go. It would have been better to market it as fun & competitive. The ridiculous amount of advertising even annoyed me – never mind those who already made up their mind that they didn’t like daily fantasy.
    I am not sure how to fix these issues. Scripting would be extremely difficult to get rid of. Entry limits being strongly reduced could fix these issues, but the prize pools would go down. I think that is a drawback that may be worth it. Also limiting the number of total entries per day would curtail the high end players from playing the low buy in 50/50s. Rake is too high – but it is unlikely anything be done about that.

  • SmokestackLightning

    @piommi said...

    FD/DK are to blame for their own mess – mainly through there own greed. Marketing it in a way that says any guy off the street can win tons of money was the wrong way to go.

    Not to quibble too hard, but I would say emphasizing it was the wrong way to go—and only in hindsight. Just about every national commercial campaign out there is promising stuff its product can’t realistically deliver, so it’s understandable to a degree why FD/DK, aggressively trying to grow their businesses, wouldn’t portray it in the most enticing way possible. Add to that the false protection they felt with behemoths like the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc in their corner, it’s also understandable why DK/FD felt like it could take that approach with little fear of backlash.

    And it might have gotten away with it too, if it had just gone with a handful fewer commercials per hour.

  • stevietpfl

    Morning Grind co-host, Lead NASCAR Analyst

    • 2015 FanDuel MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    • 2015 FAWBC Finalist

    Moderation Note – While some may or may not agree with what was said in this article, this isn’t the place to personally attack anyone. We will allow discussion on the points, but we will not allow someone to personally attack any user in this industry. If you had a post deleted, it may have been quoting a post to a personal attack. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me or email me Moderation@Rotogrinders.com

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @piommi said...

    I cringe every time I see an article about DFS in the mainstream news. This article makes some very good points – and I think as players we understand this. What I fear most are the people outside of the industry who fail to understand the details of what is being discussed.
    FD/DK are to blame for their own mess – mainly through there own greed. Marketing it in a way that says any guy off the street can win tons of money was the wrong way to go. It would have been better to market it as fun & competitive. The ridiculous amount of advertising even annoyed me – never mind those who already made up their mind that they didn’t like daily fantasy.
    I am not sure how to fix these issues. Scripting would be extremely difficult to get rid of. Entry limits being strongly reduced could fix these issues, but the prize pools would go down. I think that is a drawback that may be worth it. Also limiting the number of total entries per day would curtail the high end players from playing the low buy in 50/50s. Rake is too high – but it is unlikely anything be done about that.

    +1

    I also like the idea of sliding scale percentage of maximum entries based on number of entries in a given contest. Mathematically, we’d have the figure that out but over 10000 entries, no one player should have more than 0.25% of the pool.

    In the end, DFS should be a better, more credible product than State Lotteries or Casinos. But right now the Court of Public Opinion says otherwise. For the long term ecosystem of the industry, reasonable regulations need to be put in place. There should have been a massive surge in NFL DFS from Week 14 on due to season long being pretty much done for most people. There was not. Newbies and potential newbies got scared off. I now have to field questions from family and spouse I never had to and they’re looking at me like a moron for ever having played this. I could compare it to better than lotteries and casino games with less skill and higher vig till I’m blue in the face but the general American media is not on our side right now and are doing a phenomenal job of convincing the public that it’s worse than the 2008 mortgage crisis/derivatives scam.

  • jimmyrad

    @buckdirty said...

    Gabey doesn’t care about dfs. If he did then he wouldn’t have went to the NY Times. This is a newspaper with a clear agenda against DFS. It’s also comical for him to show a negative light on affiliates such as RG. Especially considering money generated from that has paid his salary for years. Also anyone who has ever followed him on twitter knows he spammed your timeline with his own affiliate link to whatever site he had a deal with at the time. DFS is a game. In most games there are winners and losers. Everyone playing DFS is an adult and knows what they are doing when they sign up. To act like adults need protection from these sites is silly.

    Great post Buck!

    So this guy was here one day gone the next w/o a peep, then a few weeks later this article? Did this solid bro get fired and lash out? I think all the people hoisting this hero upon their shoulders should know if he’s just being vindictive, and maybe not a hero.

  • einars

    @jimmyrad said...

    So this guy was here one day gone the next w/o a peep, then a few weeks later this article? Did this solid bro get fired and lash out?

    on twitter he said left on his own accord. Cal said they couldnt reach an agreement during contract negotiations.

  • ssbledsoe

    • 2015 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @PJGuin23 said...

    I now have to field questions from family and spouse I never had to and they’re looking at me like a moron for ever having played this. I could compare it to better than lotteries and casino games with less skill and higher vig till I’m blue in the face

    The quoted is getting old for me. It’s laughable how many of my friends/family were lauding my “free trip” to South Beach for the WFBBC, but now look at me cross eyed about playing DFS wondering if I’m degenerate or “problem gambler” (the former may be true :/ ). I frankly find it aggravating how the media and perception has changed so quickly. While I think there is fair criticism about the sites’ practices, I think the pendulum has swung completely to the other side of the map. There seems to be little to no moderation in opinions anymore. Either it’s sliced bread or the latest piece of crap Ron Popeil is shilling…

  • MV007

    I’m a newbie who has been playing for about 3-4 months mostly in the NBA contests. On some level I knew the game was stacked so I avoided the GPPs and stuck with 50/50s and Double ups or Head to Heads. I learned that I should do a simple google search to see if I’m playing against any pros in the head to heads and so I avoided a couple of those. What I didn’t completely understand and what this article illustrated for me was that the pros are also dominating the multiple entry 50/50s. I guess I should have and could have known given the “multiple entry” moniker but it just didn’t completely register for some reason. So when I left the beginner games on DK I thought I should play the contests with more people as that would cut down on variance but I quickly realized that the average cash score in the multiple entry 50/50s was higher than I was averaging. So now I’m only playing the single entry games and quite honestly this whole thing has become tiresome. I spend way too much time thinking about how to avoid being scammed. I’m seriously thinking about stopping altogether. I didn’t get in this to play gpps and try to win the lottery. I just wanted to play low stakes have a little fun and maybe make a few bucks. But I do not believe I even have a chance at making a small profit.

    There needs to be more transparency. It’s next to impossible to figure out what kind of score will cash. I should be able to view all of the competitions and see where the cash line was whether I played in the contest or not. On Draftkings, I do not believe I can view my opponents record. Heck, I can’t even find mine. These are simple tools that would inform my decision making process and I believe DraftKings could easily make them available.

  • jimmyrad

    @einars said...

    on twitter he said left on his own accord. Cal said they couldnt reach an agreement during contract negotiations.

    Fair enough. I do still wonder about the timing. Does this article happen if they were able to hammer out a deal? It’s easier to bite the hand that feeds you once it no longer feeds you, I guess.

  • kaetorade

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBBC Finalist

    @jimmyrad said...

    Fair enough. I do still wonder about the timing. Does this article happen if they were able to hammer out a deal? It’s easier to bite the hand that feeds you once it no longer feeds you, I guess.

    Please, ignore the messenger and focus on the message.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @ssbledsoe said...

    The quoted is getting old for me. It’s laughable how many of my friends/family were lauding my “free trip” to South Beach for the WFBBC, but now look at me cross eyed about playing DFS wondering if I’m degenerate or “problem gambler” (the former may be true :/ ). I frankly find it aggravating how the media and perception has changed so quickly. While I think there is fair criticism about the sites’ practices, I think the pendulum has swung completely to the other side of the map. There seems to be little to no moderation in opinions anymore. Either it’s sliced bread or the latest piece of crap Ron Popeil is shilling…

    ABC This Morning last Sunday with George Stephanopoulos sensationalized AG Schneiderman’s crap lawsuit and later that morning I was dam near calling a divorce attorney.

    On another note, said wife wanted me to buy $20 in PowerBall tix.

  • ssbledsoe

    • 2015 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @PJGuin23 said...

    ABC This Morning last Sunday with George Stephanopoulos sensationalized AG Schneiderman’s crap lawsuit and later that morning I was dam near talking to a divorce attorney.

    Funny thing. When I first told my wife I was playing, she was less than lukewarm. When I told her we were going to South Beach she was tepid. After we spent a long weekend in Miami on FD’s dime, she no longer complained. After we remodeled our bathroom, she’s been almost a cheer leader. Now with all of the press, I’m back to the tepid glares essentially saying, “so, when are you going to win enough to remodel the kitchen MFer…”

  • jimmyrad

    @kaetorade said...

    Please, ignore the messenger and focus on the message.

    No. It’s completely relevant when the messenger is a disgruntled (for whatever reason) former pitchman/carnival barker/tout supreme/affiliate (while working for another, huge affiliate)/site employee.

    VERY RELEVANT!

    couldn’t be more relevant

  • 2021Labs

    We should all be focusing on a questionable use of the word “rape” and shooting the messenger rather than looking critically at the validity of any of the claims/complaints made in the article. Its not as if the industry we all love is under legal scrutiny of any sort, or anything like that.

    We all want DFS to stay around for a long time, and itd be wise of everyone to take a tough look at industry and any changes that need to be made in the name of sustainability. And remember, public perception, regardless of accuracy, is a very powerful thing.

  • DaveFinkle

    @jimmyrad said...

    No. It’s completely relevant when the messenger is a disgruntled (for whatever reason) former pitchman/carnival barker/tout supreme/affiliate (while working for another, huge affiliate)/site employee.

    VERY RELEVANT!

    couldn’t be more relevant

    It’s only relevant if the message is irrelevant. If he makes a good point, or something that at least should be discussed, then his motives are unimportant. A topic(s) that needs to be discussed has been brought to the forefront. That’s a good thing.

  • xBenJamminx

    • Blogger of the Month

    @dude_abides7 said...

    From the article:

    “Sacco emphasized that any script that was deemed “anticompetitive” would immediately be banned, and that the company had caught and banned players for using scripts in the past, but she declined to release any specific names.”

    Banned? Do you call a 3 hour account suspension and then back to auto-scoop bonanza a “ban”? I don’t. This happened…this is FACT.

    Sacco – “ if someone is playing hundreds of thousands of dollars and comes and says, ‘I have some ideas that would help me keep doing what I’m doing,’ only a bad business would not take that into consideration.”

    Admission of changing your fair play policies in order to cater to your highest rake producers. How is this woman the head of PR?

    I thought the same thing

  • smallANDflaccid

    The main issue I have with DK and FD is the way they force us to play and won’t let us quit.

    If DFS goes away I am going to have to find some other website where I can put money in, they store it for me, I can do research, put variable money amounts into picks, and over time I might win or lose vs someone else on that transaction, but the house takes a flat fee on each transaction, and later I can take money out and I am taxed on the whole thing.

  • tonytone1908

    @RangerC said...

    There’s a massive edge.

    Here’s an example from this year – Leonard was scratched from the Spurs lineup and Kyle Anderson was starting at min salary (this was confirmed after main slate locked but before express/turbo slates locked). I edited my turbo LU on DK and put Anderson in. He hit for 30 pts or so. My LU finished around 100th in the $3 sharpshooter, and maxdalury had about 70 LU in the top 100 above me. It wouldn’t be possible to handcraft and enter 200 Anderson LU in the 30 minutes before tipoff, but with a LU generator/script you can just lock Anderson, generate top 200 variations, and have the script replace your former 200 optimal LU.

    Or in the case of Channing Frye day you just simply replace the cheap punt you already had in that slot with another cheap, same priced punt that you see as a better value with late news. Not very hard to do, but also risky and just happened to work out that day.

    But the automatic assumption is that since so few people reacted to that news that somebody somehow cheated.

  • jimmyrad

    @DaveFinkle said...

    It’s only relevant if the message is irrelevant. If he makes a good point, or something that at least should be discussed, then his motives are unimportant. A topic(s) that needs to be discussed has been brought to the forefront. That’s a good thing.

    You can’t possibly think any hit piece in the NYT, no matter the content, is a good thing that will help the industry in the long run anymore, can you? The wolves are at the door, and fixing DFS or helping the little guy isn’t on the agenda. It takes huge balls to even pretend like you’re dishing out another DFS black eye to “help” anything.

  • Ryazan

    • x3

      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • x2

      2015 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    There is an obvious fact most seem to be missing – if you put out a great lineup/lineups, then no one will be taking your money, whether its a newbie or a pro. If you put together a lineup that gets 290 when the cash line is 320 (like last night), then I don’t care how many newbies im playing against, I could be in a 50/50 with 99 new players to DFS, and more than 50 will probably beat me. At the same, you put up a lineup that gets you 340 (again, last night for example), you will beat the newbies, the maxdalury’s, ect ect…..PEOPLE ARE FOCUSED ON THE WRONG THINGS.

    Useless article that only presents DFS negatively (from the POV of a losing player by the way)

  • Jcb890

    I love how any time anyone has anything negative at all to say about DFS or how the biggest companies are running things they automatically become a terrible person and “don’t care about DFS!!!”

    You guys do realize that change and constructive criticism can be good, right?

  • FunkyColdModella

    “There needs to be more transparency. It’s next to impossible to figure out what kind of score will cash. I should be able to view all of the competitions and see where the cash line was whether I played in the contest or not. On Draftkings, I do not believe I can view my opponents record. Heck, I can’t even find mine.”

    Here here. I’d love to be able to look back through contests regardless of whether I was in them or not.

  • SmokestackLightning

    @MV007 said...

    There needs to be more transparency. It’s next to impossible to figure out what kind of score will cash. I should be able to view all of the competitions and see where the cash line was whether I played in the contest or not. On Draftkings, I do not believe I can view my opponents record. Heck, I can’t even find mine. These are simple tools that would inform my decision making process and I believe DraftKings could easily make them available.

    Totally agree on this part. It needs to be easier for noobs and casual players that want to stay casual to do so without getting their hobby money taken from them by pros.

    But I can say as someone still under a year of experience that the pros can be a major boon to your own play if you manage your bankroll carefully (the #1 biggest challenge in DFS imo) and study the lineups that beat you. Getting my ass kicked day in and day out forced me to get better, and so it was worth it to me. Now I can hold my own more days than not, and the days I don’t, I know it’s because I did something wrong, not that the game was “rigged” (I also don’t seriously play certain types of games, and wouldn’t, regardless whether they were against pros or not).

    That said, if it’s all about being casual, having a good time without much thought to getting good enough to hang with the pros—then DK/FD absolutely needs to be more mindful of that and provide more options for noobs/casuals to protect themselves and enjoy the game.

    Here’s hoping that’s what we get at the end of all this mess. As much as some here get mad at pros, the industry needs them. Which is why I’m hoping for a solution where pros and casuals can be happy and we all can keep playing.

  • smallANDflaccid

    How many games against someone (pro or not) before you have a large enough sample size to think the results are good to use as a yardstick?

  • Jcb890

    @Ryazan said...

    There is an obvious fact most seem to be missing – if you put out a great lineup/lineups, then no one will be taking your money, whether its a newbie or a pro. If you put together a lineup that gets 290 when the cash line is 320 (like last night), then I don’t care how many newbies im playing against, I could be in a 50/50 with 99 new players to DFS, and more than 50 will probably beat me. At the same, you put up a lineup that gets you 340 (again, last night for example), you will beat the newbies, the maxdalury’s, ect ect…..PEOPLE ARE FOCUSED ON THE WRONG THINGS.

    Useless article that only presents DFS negatively (from the POV of a losing player by the way)

    You’re also missing an obvious fact while trying to prove your own fact.

    That scoring line may be 290 instead of 320 if you’re going against actual user-created lineups and not mostly “pros” multi-entering with scripts.

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