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  • Mphst18

    DAUT44 and MIR84 already once caught colluding and disqualified from the kings cup by DK but still allowed to play on the site are back at it again colluding to circumvent the max entries for the millionaire maker so they have 300 entries.

    Each entered the max 150 lineups (MIR used 20 players) (DAUT used 22 players).

    The core 20 players used are identical with Reed (12% of DAUT lineups) and Finau (3.3% of DAUT lineups) as the 2 players DAUT used the MIR didnt.

    Both have 47%+ usage in lineups of main core of Kuchar, McIlroy, Molinari, Johnson, and Garcia.

    The Fact they these two who are known to work together, have been caught colluding before, have the same 20 players with near identical ownership %s yet have no lineups that overlap shows clearly they are doing this to have 300 entries (not the 150 limit).

    I understand these two are VIP players and dk generates a lot of revenue from them but how long will they allow their consumers to be unprotected and the integrity of their contests to be doubted.

  • Mphst18

    Let’s see they are facing hundreds of lawsuits and argued for them to be handled in MDL in hopes of stalling and drawing them out as well as to save money on the cost of having to defend a suit in all 50 states.

    Let’s see big banks agree to pay 1.87 BILLION for swaps collusion.

    Let’s see banks facing libor collusion lawsuits that will be Another billion dollar settlement.

    Let’s see Lehman brother fails

    Tony what people are trying to do is clean it up before it gets to a point like the big banks because unlike the big banks the sites can’t absorb a billion dollar payout they would be filing chapter 11.

    So sure everyone knows how to work around the rules to gain an advantage but it is whether your morals and character want you do so in the name of profit and greed.

    You think it feels good to ruin people’s lives over mortgages so the banks could make money because it was an angle shoot?

    You think it’s good to dupe elderly people through telescams cause it’s an angle shoot.

    While you may like to take advantage of others not everyone else does and some like to even try to protect them.

    The amount or success of my or anyone’s research for their lineups is irrelevant to the issues and I don’t need a ranking to measure my success nor do I or anyone else need to get in a pissing match with you over who’s better.

  • EC4THREE10

    @Mphst18 said...

    Let’s see they are facing hundreds of lawsuits and argued for them to be handled in MDL in hopes of stalling and drawing them out as well as to save money on the cost of having to defend a suit in all 50 states.

    Let’s see big banks agree to pay 1.87 BILLION for swaps collusion.

    Let’s see banks facing libor collusion lawsuits that will be Another billion dollar settlement.

    Let’s see Lehman brother fails

    Tony what people are trying to do is clean it up before it gets to a point like the big banks because unlike the big banks the sites can’t absorb a billion dollar payout they would be filing chapter 11.

    So sure everyone knows how to work around the rules to gain an advantage but it is whether your morals and character want you do so in the name of profit and greed.

    You think it feels good to ruin people’s lives over mortgages so the banks could make money because it was an angle shoot?

    You think it’s good to dupe elderly people through telescams cause it’s an angle shoot.

    While you may like to take advantage of others not everyone else does and some like to even try to protect them.

    The amount or success of my or anyone’s research for their lineups is irrelevant to the issues and I don’t need a ranking to measure my success nor do I or anyone else need to get in a pissing match with you over who’s better.

    Spot on!

    This thread is about being PROactive instead of reactive.

  • electrichaz3

    I think maybe its time to close my account at this community as the people here are just so freaking stupid. Nothing but sour losing players that instead of researching the next slate have written a 50 pagebl thread about nothing. This does not violate TOC. Now run along to your cub scout meets and let the adults play.

  • electrichaz3

    Oh noes! Dfs players have friends? And they try to get an edge like everyone else!?!! Say it isn’t so! Gosh gee golly I’m disappointed. What’s next, the moon really is not made of cheese?

    Dk better investigate this moon thing its not right!

  • cutter2225

    @electrichaz3 said...

    I think maybe its time to close my account at this community

    You should’ve stopped there, done it and saved us from yet another non thought out naive comment. Addressing peoples opinions that aren’t the same as yours as “freaking stupid” is the very definition of childish. I feel sorry for the “adults” that live in your world.

  • electrichaz3

    whats stupid is alarmist clowns who havent a clue spewing things that hurt an industry that many people claim as a main source of income. The same alarmist clowns that were responsible for the Ethan mess coming out. You all know who you are and you should GTFO imo

  • Mphst18

    Another former poker player wanting to repeat the same demise. I have more respect for the people who at least form their views on reason and rationale just not hey I can make a living cheating people out of money so be quiet about it.

  • cutter2225

    Thank goodness your opinion doesn’t matter here. By the way you conduct yourself it’s safe to assume your opinion doesn’t mean much in any capacity.

  • awesemo

    • 1

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #1

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x5

      2019 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Mphst18 can you explain why you have such an interest in this topic? To me, it seems like these players don’t get a large advantage by colluding in the manner you outlined in the first post.

  • BennyRamirez

    @tonytone1908 said...

    So people are working together. Big deal. Banks and financial institutions do it. Utility companies do it. People share lineups. Shocker!

    Banking is imperative to our economy and energy/gas is imperative to living, so there is a push-pull in policy. Fast food is heavily regulated and cheap food is imperative to sustainability. DFS is imperative to nothing societal.

    I understand everything you’re saying, Tony, but the impossibility of policing and the high cost in labor to properly regulate it by the government without overreach is exactly the argument for prohibition. If this seems impossible, the sites better damn find a way t make it possible or this all disappears.

  • Mphst18

    @awesemo said...

    Mphst18 can you explain why you have such an interest in this topic? To me, it seems like these players don’t get a large advantage by colluding in the manner you outlined in the first post.

    Multiple areas of interest but with the highest being the continuance of DFS but in a cleaned up manner as the current one is not sustainable and will lead to being shut down if it doesn’t right the ship.

    I also am not a fan of sites telling one side of the world (only for their own interests) that they protect consumers and care about the legitimacy of the game yet their actions speak differently while the data and facts show they only care about their bottom line and saying whatever needs to be said to get legalized.

    I also don’t think the sites should be advertising to someone who is a casual player only for the purpose of feeding them up to these same angle shooting individuals they allow to break their TOS, the same TOS the casual player thinks is in place to protect them and must legally agree to in order to play on the site.

    Many of the people who don’t want it cleaned up isn’t because they don’t think its wrong its that they want DFS but a DFS world not made up of only vets as it is not as lucrative for them so they only want DFS in a world where they can be predatory on the naive, the same naive the sites are supposedly protecting with their TOS.

    Another concern is once you let the gates open for this very scrupulous and questionable behavior it will just snowball and become MUCH MUCH larger.

  • cutter2225

    @awesemo said...

    Mphst18 can you explain why you have such an interest in this topic? To me, it seems like these players don’t get a large advantage by colluding in the manner you outlined in the first post.

    Should it matter the size of the advantage gained by colluding? I don’t believe cheating should be acceptable because the overall advantage gained seems small. If I break the law and tell the judge yes I bent the law but it was only a bit and really didn’t hurt anyone. What are the chances the judge tells me its ok I broke the law and to continue doing it?

  • hotpants

    @electrichaz3 said...

    The same alarmist clowns that were responsible for the Ethan mess coming out.

    Yeah, they should’ve kept that whole “Ethan mess” hush hush… Nothing to see there

  • BennyRamirez

    @awesemo said...

    Mphst18 can you explain why you have such an interest in this topic? To me, it seems like these players don’t get a large advantage by colluding in the manner you outlined in the first post.

    I don’t see how the results of this team losing money in this case, or in general, is relevant. From an integrity standpoint, there is a relevant “fair play” discussion to be had; from a consequential standpoint, there is a relevant “everyone loses” discussion to be had.

    Just because DFS is zero sum doesn’t necessarily mean that their loss is our gain.

  • fadein34

    unless one person is using two accounts there is nothing to see here.

    i can’t seem to grasp what it is you’re all whining about.

  • cinthree

    @DoubleTime said...

    Simply ensuring zero overlap with 0.1% of the field provides such a minuscule advantage that it is next to nothing, probably unquantifiable, but it is still there so you are still technically correct.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appearance_of_impropriety

    I agree that the edge gained is minuscule (although not unquantifiable). The problem is that there are rules in place that prevent a player from entering more than 150 times, and these two players circumvented those rules and gained an edge in the process. Their intent is irrelevant here – for sake of argument, let’s take Ryan’s words as unequivocally true – they still gained an edge (albeit small) via making sure that their lineups never overlapped (one of them entered lineups $200-$300 short, the other $400+ short).

    You cannot have rules in place without consequences. The consequences certainly don’t have to be anything drastic, but if you don’t have a consequence, what’s the point of the rule? I get that it’s downright impossible to prove that a group of players or pair of friends crossed the line from simply sharing research/discussion to outright lineup sharing. I get that without profits being split, the edge gained from lineup sharing is infinitesimally small. I even get that, in the future, all two people need to do is have a few of their lineups be identical (say, 5 out of 150), and then you can’t argue that they divided a set number of premade lineups in half and each ran their own share, thus killing the “smoking gun” sort-to-speak.

    But appearances matter. DFS is no longer in its own little bubble. It’s becoming a highly visible, regulated enterprise. APPEARANCES matter. If you’re going to have entry limits, you need a consequence to behavior that gains an edge “circumventing” those entry limits. Regardless of whether or not the actual integrity of the contests was harmed, and regardless of whether or not the consequences do anything to actually combat the behavior in question – which they wouldn’t, because a pair of friends would just make sure they had a few lineups overlap and then you can’t prove anything, the important point is that the appearance of impropriety is a huge problem in the “new” DFS landscape, and steps must be taken to ensure that there is no appearance of impropriety.

  • tonytone1908

    @BennyRamirez said...

    Banking is imperative to our economy and energy/gas is imperative to living, so there is a push-pull in policy. Fast food is heavily regulated and cheap food is imperative to sustainability. DFS is imperative to nothing societal.

    I understand everything you’re saying, Tony, but the impossibility of policing and the high cost in labor to properly regulate it by the government without overreach is exactly the argument for prohibition. If this seems impossible, the sites better damn find a way t make it possible or this all disappears.

    My issue is people keep coming up with these ideas that there is some sort of conspiracy happening and there just isn’t. People are looking for 100% complete and total fairness and everything is perfect but just like anything in life that is never going to happen nor should it.

    My issue is that everybody “wants DFS to stay around” but keep trying to find ways to tear it down. They keep feeding the AG’s with threads like these. You’re not saving the world, you’re not saving DFS, all you’re doing is destroying it but people just can’t see that. It’s sickening and sad to see people who think they’re helping actually making things worse.

    People want the industry to grow but all we’re doing is making it smaller. Reducing players, reducing entries, reducing prize pools. How is that making it better and growing? By crying that someone was cheating so they could get an extra 0.002% of entries in a tournament? Seriously? So I guess you’ve never been in a lottery pool at work before?

    All I know is since I started playing 2 years ago, pools and prizes have gone down. Entries are limited a lot more than before. Many states have banned DFS altogether with more trying to ban. And guess what? The same damn people keep winning. Maybe that should tell you that someone is simply better than you. It’s foolish to jump into DFS and assume 2 months later you’re going to be taking GPP’s down like a pro. These guys have had years to work on their algorithms and lineup builders. So all the sour grapes about things not being fair just because they aren’t that good and someone else is much better is what is destroying the industry. But you can’t look at a GPP where you have a 1/100,000 chance of winning and cry if you never come in first. The odds are right in front of you. The payouts are clear to read. The math is easy, it’s not hard to figure out that if someone else enters 150x’s more LU’s than you that they have a better chance.

    I understand the arguments for single entry across the board but do you think the pros are going to stick around if their fancy tools and hard work only allows them to enter ONE lineup for the entire day? Hell no. People realize the sharks win a lot of money but without their money in play this game would be reduced to nothing. Be careful what you ask for.

  • Mphst18

    the notion that multi accounting only can occur with one person using more than one account is very naive.

    Multi accounting comes in many forms and can be done in many ways.

    Just because my friend may be an actual individual meaning it is two individuals each with an individual account does not mean we cant multi account.

    Here is how off base the sites are on the issue, i believe what ray does is the right way (him and his partner don’t have two accounts they have one since they work together and will enter the same lineups and knew all this would be an issue) but if you email the site for a definition of syndicate play here is their response:

    “Syndicate play would involve multiple people or a group of people engaging in a joint effort to operate an account”

    This is how lost they are on the issue, so to them what Ray is doing is a syndicate but what these guys (and others do) is ok.

  • RangerC

    @electrichaz3 said...

    Dfs players have friends? And they try to get an edge like everyone else!?!!

    The justifications we get in this thread are just inane.

    When people were caught cheating in poker, never remember anyone saying:

    “Poker players have friends? And they try to get an edge like everyone else”

    Can’t wait for an attorney to defend someone accused of insider trading by saying:

    “Business people have friends, and they try to get an edge like everyone else”

  • tonytone1908

    Prove to me that these two players are one in the same and you have an argument. Nobody entered 151 lineups. They each entered 150, as allowed. There is nothing else to argue here. I don’t need a warning label from the sites to know that people may be working together. Two guys scooping 3 mans and using the same LU I don’t agree with but nobody is trying to stop that from happening are they?

  • jr1886

    • 2017 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @awesemo said...

    Mphst18 can you explain why you have such an interest in this topic? To me, it seems like these players don’t get a large advantage by colluding in the manner you outlined in the first post.

    I aso think that if Mphst18 could prove that he is succesful at this DFS thing, we would take his crusade more seriously. That’s a fact of life. Until then, a lot of us here will think that you are trying to destroy DFS because you are not good at it. That’s unfair, but that’s life. If Rayofhope, or another Pro, was leading this crusade, we would think differently.

  • Mphst18

    @jr1886 said...

    I aso think that if Mphst18 could prove that he is succesful at this DFS thing, we would take his crusade more seriously. That’s a fact of life. Until then, a lot of us here will think that you are trying to destroy DFS because you are not good at it. That’s unfair, but that’s life. If Rayofhope, or another Pro, was leading this crusade, we would think differently.

    I don’t need to justify to you are anyone nor does it matter if its a winning or losing player making whatever points they want to, the should be based off the merits of the facts supporting their views.

    However you might want to do some research before you spew off nonsense.

    Maybe look at nascar last week (3, 5 and 27 contest, don’t be afraid to look from the top 100 up), maybe look at mlb (fastball $33) on 7/29 (don’t be afraid to look from the top 100 up). Maybe look at stacknfade June 7 2016, Nov 18, 2015.

    Notice who the below was against and it wasn’t a loss so not bitter , I have a net profit vs TEAM DAUT/MIR/ABOVEANDBEYOND

    Sport Entry Contest_Date_EST Place Points Winnings_Non_Ticket
    NFL NFL $5,300 Head-to-Head vs. MakeItRain84 12/13/2015 16:05 1 145.54 $10,000.00

    well that really put a damper on the its only losing players argument

  • emitnulB

    • 103

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #11

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2019 $1M Prize Winner

    • 2018 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    @cutter2225 said...

    Should it matter the size of the advantage gained by colluding? I don’t believe cheating should be acceptable because the overall advantage gained seems small. If I break the law and tell the judge yes I bent the law but it was only a bit and really didn’t hurt anyone. What are the chances the judge tells me its ok I broke the law and to continue doing it?

    Yeah but what are the chances a cop actually puts you in front of a judge because you were driving 5 miles over the speed limit or crossing the street outside of a crosswalk? Enforcing anti collusion to the letter of the law would mean RG discussion forums, projections, and strategy articles are all collusion. You can’t enforce the rules that way and have a functioning industry.

  • emitnulB

    • 103

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #11

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2019 $1M Prize Winner

    • 2018 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    @cinthree said...

    The problem is that there are rules in place that prevent a player from entering more than 150 times, and these two players circumvented those rules and gained an edge in the process.

    No they didn’t. They each entered 150 times like the law says they an. 2 guys entered 150 times each and made their lineups together. That’s not circumventing any rules. Had one guy entered 300 times, then yes you’re right, but that’s not what happened and nobody is even accusing them of that. The issue is whether working together at all is allowed, not whether these guys circumvented the entry limit. Then the question becomes: How could you possibly catch every instance of this, including ones where the cooperators did not max their entries? The answer is that you can’t possibly do that, so I find it hard to imagine any rational policy for DK to implement here. Any enforcement of anti collusion would just allow them to decide who to pay out on a whim and would be unacceptable for the players.

  • Mphst18

    @emitnulB said...

    No they didn’t. They each entered 150 times like the law says they an. 2 guys entered 150 times each and made their lineups together. That’s not circumventing any rules. Had one guy entered 300 times, then yes you’re right, but that’s not what happened and nobody is even accusing them of that. The issue is whether working together at all is allowed, not whether these guys circumvented the entry limit. Then the question becomes: How could you possibly catch every instance of this, including ones where the cooperators did not max their entries? The answer is that you can’t possibly do that, so I find it hard to imagine any rational policy for DK to implement here. Any enforcement of anti collusion would just allow them to decide who to pay out on a whim and would be unacceptable for the players.

    they each entered 150 the miraculously had no overlapping entries amongst each other even though they used the same 20 players and did the work together and together decided whom would enter each lineup based off salary constraints. TEAM DAUT/MIR had 300 unique entries in the tournament while anyone who abides by the TOS had max of 150.

    I guess since we cant catch all criminals in the world we should stop chasing crime.

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