PGA FORUM

  • Mphst18

    DAUT44 and MIR84 already once caught colluding and disqualified from the kings cup by DK but still allowed to play on the site are back at it again colluding to circumvent the max entries for the millionaire maker so they have 300 entries.

    Each entered the max 150 lineups (MIR used 20 players) (DAUT used 22 players).

    The core 20 players used are identical with Reed (12% of DAUT lineups) and Finau (3.3% of DAUT lineups) as the 2 players DAUT used the MIR didnt.

    Both have 47%+ usage in lineups of main core of Kuchar, McIlroy, Molinari, Johnson, and Garcia.

    The Fact they these two who are known to work together, have been caught colluding before, have the same 20 players with near identical ownership %s yet have no lineups that overlap shows clearly they are doing this to have 300 entries (not the 150 limit).

    I understand these two are VIP players and dk generates a lot of revenue from them but how long will they allow their consumers to be unprotected and the integrity of their contests to be doubted.

  • czaz

    Surprised RG hasnt already deleted this

  • Mphst18

    Let’s also look at all Ryan’s entry totals are either 50, 49.9, or 49.6 and below salary cap (notice no 49.8 or 49.7) while all David’s are 49.8 and 49.7 salary cap.

    Instead of defending your friends Assani why don;t you just use common sense. Why do you think RAY and his partner don’t have two accounts, maybe because they have morals and understand rules and could see how others including yourself would exploit them.

    You built your bankroll pillaging the unsuspecting in MICROLIMIT heads up and playing in teams/collusion/syndication then after you made enough money you realized Ray was correct in shaming you for doing so.

  • czaz

    @Mphst18 said...

    Instead of defending your friends Assani why don;t you just use common sense. Why do you think RAY and his partner don’t have two accounts, maybe because they have morals and understand rules and could see how others including yourself would exploit them.

    You built your bankroll pillaging the unsuspecting in MICROLIMIT heads up and playing in teams/collusion/syndication then after you made enough money you realized Ray was correct in shaming you for doing so.

    talk that shit!

  • mchin1027

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I understand that there might be an issue with syndication here. What I didn’t understand was the claim that there was an issue of circumventing the entry limits(and I still don’t understand it).

    Because they don’t have any duplicate lineups, it appears (although no one knows for sure) that they would split the winnings, and are teaming up to essentially create 300 unique lineups around a core of players, as opposed to 150 entries each.

    If one player was granted access to 300 entries when everyone else was limited to 150, would you care? This is exactly the same thing, except this one player is comprised of two usernames.

    Is it really that hard to understand?

    It goes beyond just working together or researching together. It’s a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules that are in place for the GPP.

    It’s disappointing Draftkings hasn’t done more about this. We all saw the firestorm of negative publicity surrounding Ethan – protecting the integrity of the game should be one of their top priorities.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 264

      RG Overall Ranking

    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @sjs1890 said...

    If you actually read the other thread there were facts with stats provided by thefantasyfanatics that show the majoirty of gpps are filled by the common people not the max entry users. Just because it was lowered to 150 does not mean thats ok, as you can see theres been cheating still going on with 150 limit.

    I don’t disagree that the majority of entries come from common people. But that wasn’t at all what I was responding to you about.

    You said that facts show that we don’t need high max entries in order to fill contest(“we dont need it to fill the games its just facts”). And this MM was a great test case, as they lowed their max entries to 150(I believe it was 500 before) and it didn’t fill(86,099/87,500 entries). If they had lowered the max entries all the way to 50 then there would’ve been even worse overlay. I don’t see how this is disputable.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I think you misunderstood my post. Your reply seems to focus on whether or not they are working as a team(syndication). I wasn’t asking about that; I was asking about your claim that they were circumventing the entry limit. I didn’t(and still don’t) understand that claim.

    they said here are 20 players we like, now lineup model please spit out as many entries as you can with these 20 players with a salary of no less than $40 and no duplicate lineups

    Said lineup model then spits out 300 lineups.

    Since one player can only submit 150 entries, David takes these 150 and Ryan takes these 150. Now we have entered all the lineups our model spit out instead of us maybe missing putting some in cause we each chose the same one to enter.

    Clear enough for you. I know you know all the angles and it amazes me you play dumb. You know they play as a team as Ryan has openly admitted it so why you even question that again is you just trying to raise doubt to cover for the people like yourself who have corrupted DFS.

  • zline34

    @QSchoolDropOut said...

    Well there 50 percent ownership of Rory doesn’t look so hot right.

    I hope Rory shoots the worst rounds of his life. I don’t care that he’s in a my lineup.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @czaz said...

    Surprised RG hasnt already deleted this

    You do realize Cal, one of the founders of RG, not only posted in the other thread (that is very similar to this one) but also notified DK about that thread, no?

    Not sure what you mean by your comment.

  • xdan3220

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I don’t disagree that the majority of entries come from common people. But that wasn’t at all what I was responding to you about.

    You said that facts show that we don’t need high max entries in order to fill contest(“we dont need it to fill the games its just facts”). And this MM was a great test case, as they lowed their max entries to 150(I believe it was 500 before) and it didn’t fill(86,099/87,500 entries). If they had lowered the max entries all the way to 50 then there would’ve been even worse overlay. I don’t see how this is disputable.

    Few things,

    1) Even though it didn’t fill with 86,099 entries at 33 dollars a pop and a 2.5 million purse DK still makes $341,267 from this contest.
    2) If they lowered the max entries they can lower the purse and total entries to make sure they still profit
    3) I don’t think there is any reason for them to lower max entries only to make sure that players aren’t obviously colluding to circumvent that entry limit. Someone else said it best, if a few players were each allowed 300 entries and everyone else was only allowed 150 that wouldn’t make sense or be fair, so to allow 2 people to get around the cap by circumventing the max entries makes no sense either.

  • jdtrey

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I don’t disagree that the majority of entries come from common people. But that wasn’t at all what I was responding to you about.

    You said that facts show that we don’t need high max entries in order to fill contest(“we dont need it to fill the games its just facts”). And this MM was a great test case, as they lowed their max entries to 150(I believe it was 500 before) and it didn’t fill(86,099/87,500 entries). If they had lowered the max entries all the way to 50 then there would’ve been even worse overlay. I don’t see how this is disputable.

    I can’t believe you’re actually trying to use this MM not filling by under 1500 entries as your example for this. The entry limit was lowered for more than just this MM and they filled. The reason this one didn’t fill is the widespread disgust with the insanely garbage payout structure and you’re either well aware of this or completely naive.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I don’t disagree that the majority of entries come from common people. But that wasn’t at all what I was responding to you about.

    You said that facts show that we don’t need high max entries in order to fill contest(“we dont need it to fill the games its just facts”). And this MM was a great test case, as they lowed their max entries to 150(I believe it was 500 before) and it didn’t fill(86,099/87,500 entries). If they had lowered the max entries all the way to 50 then there would’ve been even worse overlay. I don’t see how this is disputable.

    According to who??? You? Thats just like your opinion man. If there were a 50 limit entry and less top heavy payout im pretty sure that would have more interest than there currently is. In fact I think they could fill a larger gpp because more players like myself that care about EV would actually play it 10-20 times instead 0.

  • zline34

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I don’t disagree that the majority of entries come from common people. But that wasn’t at all what I was responding to you about.

    You said that facts show that we don’t need high max entries in order to fill contest(“we dont need it to fill the games its just facts”). And this MM was a great test case, as they lowed their max entries to 150(I believe it was 500 before) and it didn’t fill(86,099/87,500 entries). If they had lowered the max entries all the way to 50 then there would’ve been even worse overlay. I don’t see how this is disputable.

    Why do you think it’s not filling? I almost didn’t enter it because it’s hard to compete against people that enter 150 unique lineups let alone 300 if using syndication. I wish larger gpp buy ins were single entry or at least a reasonable limit like 25 entries. I don’t care if the prize pool shrinks.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 264

      RG Overall Ranking

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      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @mchin1027 said...

    This is exactly the same thing, except this one player is comprised of two usernames.

    No, this “one player” is comprised of TWO PLAYERS. I agree that if it were just one person then there’d be an issue.

  • lakewoody

    @xdan3220 said...

    1) no reason to believe profits would be shared

    The data posted in OP provides more than enough evidence. If you had a core group of players you felt greatly increased your odds to win a cool milly, would you share it with your BFF without reaping some monetary reward?

  • AssaniFisher

    • 264

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      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    they said here are 20 players we like, now lineup model please spit out as many entries as you can with these 20 players with a salary of no less than $40 and no duplicate lineups

    Said lineup model then spits out 300 lineups.

    Since one player can only submit 150 entries, David takes these 150 and Ryan takes these 150. Now we have entered all the lineups our model spit out instead of us maybe missing putting some in cause we each chose the same one to enter.

    Clear enough for you. I know you know all the angles and it amazes me you play dumb. You know they play as a team as Ryan has openly admitted it so why you even question that again is you just trying to raise doubt to cover for the people like yourself who have corrupted DFS.

    I agree that would be syndication. I disagree that’d be circumventing the entry limit.

  • Bigo1

    Well accusation without strong evidence is quite serious too.
    I am all for RG passing info to DK when members here are concerned about one topic. However, the title of this thread is way too strong and misleading IMO.

    RG can not be a platform where ppl can accuse and insult other members easily either.

  • xdan3220

    @lakewoody said...

    The data posted in OP provides more than enough evidence. If you had a core group of players you felt greatly increased your odds to win a cool milly, would you share it with your BFF without reaping some monetary reward?

    I was responding to another post that posed a hypothetical about sharing a lineup via twitter, I think these guys are obviously sharing profits.

  • TinkyTyler

    • 165

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    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I understand that there might be an issue with syndication here. What I didn’t understand was the claim that there was an issue of circumventing the entry limits(and I still don’t understand it).

    Seems pretty straightforward to me: If they both have 150 unique entries, and they swap action, each player essentially has 300 entries (granted, at half the stake).

    The problem is, then you get into the conversation about swapping action… i.e. is that OK, and if it’s not how could the sites ever possibly police that. In my mind the players who do this are obviously acting as a syndicate, but maybe that’s not what DK defines as a syndicate, and even if it is how do you enforce that kind of rule? It’s not an easy conversation.

    At the very least, the rules need to be more appropriately defined in the TOS. There shouldn’t need to be a thread everytime someone does this… just tell us if it’s allowed or not (and if it’s not, actually enforce it)

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I agree that would be syndication. I disagree that’d be circumventing the entry limit.

    You defending them isnt a good look. You agreed that they are syndicates well thats against the tos, and DK needs to enforce and get rid of this type of behavior if they dont want to face backlash.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 264

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      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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    @sjs1890 said...

    According to who??? You? Thats just like your opinion man. If there were a 50 limit entry and less top heavy payout im pretty sure that would have more interest than there currently is. In fact I think they could fill a larger gpp because more players like myself that care about EV would actually play it 10-20 times instead 0.

    This certainly isn’t an area where I know a lot. However from what I’ve heard from people who study marketing, you are wrong. People are drawn to huge 1st prize payouts. I would think that if data said otherwise you’d see these multi-million dollar companies change their philosophies, but you don’t see that. You can look at the World Series of Poker as a non-DFS example.

    Can you point to any marketing experts who would agree with you?

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I understand that your post gives overwhelming evidence that they worked together, but I don’t understand the accusation of circumventing the entry limit. They are 2 people, each allowed 150 entries. So how does them having a combined 300 entries mean they circumvented the entry limit? Are you saying that if 2 people work together, they should only be allowed 75 entries each?

    They are playing as one person. This is a blatant attempt to circumvent the 150 max entry limit. Like I’ve said numerous times already, draftkings own CEO said any attempt to circumvent the max entry limit in the form of a syndicate will result in a permanent ban from the website. Those arent my words, those are the words of the guy that runs Draftkings.

    As an extreme example. Lets say 100 people get together and put in 150 each, all working together using the same core. You’d be ok with that I guess?

  • AssaniFisher

    • 264

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    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @sjs1890 said...

    You defending them isnt a good look.

    Yea it seems like these threads never go well for me. I feel like I’m trying to ask interesting question and focus the discussion on the topics that need to be address(while ignoring the nonsense that always comes with these threads), but it seems like people rather I didn’t post.

    No worries, I’ll bow out of this thread and I won’t participate in future threads like this.

  • shamrock77s

    @AssaniFisher said...

    This MM only allowed 150 entries which was lower than in the past. And it didn’t fill(86,099/87,500 entries). DK has also paid out millions of dollars in overlay over the course of their company history.

    What facts are you referencing?

    The Milly Maker didn’t fill because of the asinine 40% payout to first place, multiple members in the PGA forum referenced this as a reason that they would not make a single entry into the tourney. The fact that the tourney didn’t fill isn’t a referendum on needing max entry players so much as DK needs to put together a tourney at that buy-in with a payout that makes sense.
    Make it half a million to 1st instead of a million and pay 2nd a quarter of a million, filter the rest of the payout structure down and the tourney would have filled by Wednesday afternoon.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I agree that would be syndication. I disagree that’d be circumventing the entry limit.

    I guess you and I disagree that with the all the data available to us (the number of players they used, similarity of the players they used, ownership levels of the players they used, salary cap separation they used) the fact that not of their lineups is identical to each other is according to you just random luck and to me is a way to enter more than 150 lineups of the teams one individual would want to play.

    While in fact they are two separate human beings you are a bit blind and ignorant that you only separate multi accounting to be one player having more than one account when in fact multi accounting can be done in many different ways including two actual separate human beings.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    This certainly isn’t an area where I know a lot. However from what I’ve heard from people who study marketing, you are wrong. People are drawn to huge 1st prize payouts. I would think that if data said otherwise you’d see these multi-million dollar companies change their philosophies, but you don’t see that. You can look at the World Series of Poker as a non-DFS example.

    Can you point to any marketing experts who would agree with you?

    Wheres the data then??? I have been using clear facts and stats from thefantasyfantatics and you have been speculating and just guessing huge difference. Again Thats just like your opinion man. Yes people are drawn to huge 1st place prizes, but whats the difference between 1 million to 1st and 500k to 1st????? realistically is not much its still a HUGE 1st place prize. Theres a clear reason why DK has payout structures like this to keep the high volume players happy like yourself its very easy to understand unless you are biased which seems like the case.

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