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  • Mphst18

    DAUT44 and MIR84 already once caught colluding and disqualified from the kings cup by DK but still allowed to play on the site are back at it again colluding to circumvent the max entries for the millionaire maker so they have 300 entries.

    Each entered the max 150 lineups (MIR used 20 players) (DAUT used 22 players).

    The core 20 players used are identical with Reed (12% of DAUT lineups) and Finau (3.3% of DAUT lineups) as the 2 players DAUT used the MIR didnt.

    Both have 47%+ usage in lineups of main core of Kuchar, McIlroy, Molinari, Johnson, and Garcia.

    The Fact they these two who are known to work together, have been caught colluding before, have the same 20 players with near identical ownership %s yet have no lineups that overlap shows clearly they are doing this to have 300 entries (not the 150 limit).

    I understand these two are VIP players and dk generates a lot of revenue from them but how long will they allow their consumers to be unprotected and the integrity of their contests to be doubted.

  • maxeernst

    @AssaniFisher said...

    This certainly isn’t an area where I know a lot. However from what I’ve heard from people who study marketing, you are wrong. People are drawn to huge 1st prize payouts. I would think that if data said otherwise you’d see these multi-million dollar companies change their philosophies, but you don’t see that. You can look at the World Series of Poker as a non-DFS example.

    Can you point to any marketing experts who would agree with you?

    I would postulate that the guys at Fanduel are certainly looking at different marketing studies // have a different understanding of their ecosystem than those at DK do, given their generally flatter payout structures.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @sjs1890 said...

    Wheres the data then??? I have been using clear facts and stats from thefantasyfantatics and you have been speculating and just guessing huge difference. Again Thats just like your opinion man. Yes people are drawn to huge 1st place prizes, but whats the difference between 1 million to 1st and 500k to 1st????? realistically is not much its still a HUGE 1st place prize. Theres a clear reason why DK has payout structures like this to keep the high volume players happy like yourself its very easy to understand unless you are biased which seems like the case.

    I don’t know what the difference between 1 mil and $500k would be. You know who does know- PEOPLE WHO STUDY MARKETING! You know who DK hires to make these decisions- PEOPLE WHO STUDY MARKETING.

    I do not like this payout structure at all. I’d much rather minimize variance with a lower payout structure. But I try to not allow my personal preferences affect my view of what is best for the community. What marketing experts tell us is that high first prizes attract more random people. I agree with you that more serious players(who make up a lot of the RG community) tend to dislike the big first prizes and shy away from playing in contests that have them.

    The only “clear facts and stats” you’ve shown are that the majority of entries come from normal people and not high volume pros.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @maxeernst said...

    I would postulate that the guys at Fanduel are certainly looking at different marketing studies // have a different understanding of their ecosystem than those at DK do, given their generally flatter payout structures.

    I agree 100%, and this is the type of data we should be analyzing- Which method results in the site being able to regularly have contests with huge prizepools? Which site continually has bigger contests than the other?

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I don’t know what the difference between 1 mil and $500k would be. You know who does know- PEOPLE WHO STUDY MARKETING! You know who DK hires to make these decisions- PEOPLE WHO STUDY MARKETING.

    I do not like this payout structure at all. I’d much rather minimize variance with a lower payout structure. But I try to not allow my personal preferences affect my view of what is best for the community. What marketing experts tell us is that high first prizes attract more random people. I agree with you that more serious players(who make up a lot of the RG community) tend to dislike the big first prizes and shy away from playing in contests that have them.

    The only “clear facts and stats” you’ve shown are that the majority of entries come from normal people and not high volume pros.

    500k to 1st is as high of number as we need and would generate even more interest with a balanced structure. 1 million to 1st is a joke and not sustainable for the ecosystem of the players. So you think its the best interest of the community to have this type of payout?? Thats pretty laughable, im speaking with common sense not personal preference. For example Draftstreet did things the right way not many top heavy payouts and limits on entries and guess what??? Draftstreet filled the majority of their games. Why you ask? Because the majority of players are the common players not high volume max entries guys. The right way to get to a million dollar payout is to grow the right way not have an unsustainable tourney.

  • maxeernst

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I agree 100%, and this is the type of data we should be analyzing- Which method results in the site being able to regularly have contests with huge prizepools? Which site continually has bigger contests than the other?

    I think the more important questions are: Which tactic/site is better promoting growth? Which ecosystem is healthier and more sustainable?

  • Lathum

    This thread is proof that anytime you discover something fun assholes will find a way to exploit it for their own monetary gain and ruin it for everyone else.

  • lakewoody

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I disagree that’d be circumventing the entry limit.

    Assani, if they are sharing the 300 lineups to maximize their EV, is that not circumventing the entry limit for monetary gain?

  • emitnulB

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    @Lathum said...

    DK doesn’t HAVE to prove anything, it is a business and they have every right to refuse whomever they want to use the site.

    Why would they want to restrict a couple of guys who want to bet 10k in a game to appease a few guys who want to bet 30 dollars in that game? Like seriously guys, just don’t play games with high entry limits if this kind of thing pisses you off. There’s no way that you can police this without allowing DK to confiscate funds without having to prove collusion, and at the end of the day, if you use a projection source when you’re making your lineup, then you’re colluding with the author of the projections in the same way that these guys are colluding with each other. They’re not multi accounting, they’re two separate people, and each individual gets 150 entries according to the rules. If this is too many entries, you can feel free to complain to DK that it’s too high, but there won’t be a million for first if you start lowering the entry limit to the extremes that some of you are suggesting. 150 entries per person, not 150 entries split between you and everybody that you’ve ever talked to about DFS.

  • AssaniFisher

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    @sjs1890 said...

    500k to 1st is as high of number as we need and would generate even more interest with a balanced structure. 1 million to 1st is a joke and not sustainable for the ecosystem of the players. So you think its the best interest of the community to have this type of payout?? Thats pretty laughable, im speaking with common sense not personal preference. For example Draftstreet did things the right way not many top heavy payouts and limits on entries and guess what??? Draftstreet filled the majority of their games. Why you ask? Because the majority of players are the common players not high volume max entries guys. The right way to get to a million dollar payout is to grow the right way not have an unsustainable tourney.

    I feel like we are talking past each other a bit here. I have no expertise whatsoever on this issue, and my opinion shouldn’t matter. I did not study marketing in college. I do not try to use my own “common sense” on these issues because I am not educated enough.

    I’m pretty sure you aren’t an expert either. As such, I see 3 reasonable methods for us to obtain better info:

    1. We can ask people who study marketing
    2. We can look at what multi-million dollar companies(who hire people who study marketing) do
    3. We can directly compare FanDuel and DraftKings, as the former has has flatter payout structures while the latter was responsible for the contest in question(with $1mil to 1st and only $100k to 2nd). Which company’s methods have resulted in them being able to have the contests with the largest number of entrants?

  • jah2323

    @Lathum said...

    This thread is proof that anytime you discover something fun assholes will find a way to exploit it for their own monetary gain and ruin it for everyone else.

    exactly

  • RangerC

    Google Sheet:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18QuEdvk7-STf2IR6G4rWSYmZ0VuuwzOjSnSwR2C77Ik/edit?usp=sharing

    Once again, exact same core, no dupes. There’s a little more variation in percents as you go down, but the magical zero dupes prove the 300 LUs came out of the same generator.

    Best Example:
    Both players have 50% DJ, ~50% Sergio, 50% Kuchar, 27+% Charl, 37-46% Woodland, 21-28% Sullivan. MiR has the obvious LU with all 6 (heavily duplicated, 74 in the birdie) and Daut44 does not.

    BTW, the most ironic thing about this is that there really isn’t much edge (300 LUs vs 150) compared to other collusive behaviors, but its extremely easy to prove AND preventing this is explicitly mentioned in DFS regulations.

  • Chuky

    I’m so happy about regulation. Trust me auditors will catch players trying to go against the rules. Level playing field makes it better for everyone. This is why DFS companies cannot police themselves because of situation like this. Man playing over 3 years, I was blind to a lot of things

  • RangerC

    @emitnulB said...

    Why would they want to restrict a couple of guys who want to bet 10k in a game to appease a few guys who want to bet 30 dollars in that game?

    Because DFS regulations explicitly put a cap on entries, that’s why. We went down from 500 to 200 after some of the initial bad publicity, to 150 after that number was specifically stated in the NY regulations.

  • BennyRamirez

    Assani, with all due respect, stop it. You are too smart to not identify the topic at hand.

    Enforcing syndicate rules lower entries by a significant fraction—sure—but that is not the topic of conversation. The topic is enforcing syndicate rules.

    Is one account entering 300 times? No. Everyone knows that. Two people are owners of two accounts playing 150 entries each, yes, we know that. But the two people are also extending their play to the other account. If you don’t value the rules in place, fine, just say so, and say that it is for marketing sake and prize pools or that the two people are still paying 300 entry fees or that two people researching together will agree to a joint conclusion, generate 300 lineups and split them among accounts, and you’re fine with that. There are people who are not fine with that, ergo they value the rules against syndicates over a $1m prize pool versus one slightly less. That is why the anger and protest exists.

    Justify their behavior all you want. I think you mentioned in a vlog that they are friends of yours and maybe even that you engaged in the same behavior with aejones? I don’t exactly remember. But that doesn’t oblige you to advocate for them. If you have to split hairs so much as to shift the goalposts, maybe that is an indication of a flawed position here.

    EDIT: FTR, I, personally, have no problem with people lineup sharing, researching together as a team, scripting max LUs and profit sharing. But where there is no overlap, there is a line crossed that verges on multiaccounting to play more than the max entries allowed by extending the individuals’ entries to a second account. There is fine line with MIR/Daut and you cannot deny that it is at least being tightroped, historically, and this possibly crosses that line.

  • joonyari22

    • Blogger of the Month

    Fully aware of everything that is being recycled in this thread…i still fired off a bullet in the MM last night before going to bed. Played what i thought to be a contrarian lineup and took a shot – it probably wont cash. My choice to do so – I understood the subpar payout structure, MME pitfalls, potential syndication, etc etc etc. Signed up for all of it on my own. If it doesn’t work out, that’s on me. At least I have my cash games and single entry GPPs to sweat. This probably helps no one. GL

  • Mphst18

    It’s really frustrating that the facilitator of the contests who are supposed to ensure the integrity of the contents can’t even find these things and its individual customers who have to.

    These guys were already caught once and kicked out of a contest so DK should have been monitoring them.

  • emitnulB

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    @Chuky said...

    I’m so happy about regulation. Trust me auditors will catch players trying to go against the rules. Level playing field makes it better for everyone. This is why DFS companies cannot police themselves because of situation like this. Man playing over 3 years, I was blind to a lot of things

    The regulations are what made this situation happen. Had DK been able to set the max entry limit at 500, like they have in the past on 100k man fields, these guys wouldn’t even need 2 accounts to play 300 entries and nobody would be complaining when they made 300 entries. A group of legislators made an arbitrary rule about a game that they didn’t understand and now there’s a bunch of people complaining in this forum because the arbitrary rule can not be enforced in a way that prevents this type of play, even though it’s much harder for these guys to actually enter 300 times than it was prior to the legislation. The regulators are your enemies here, not your saviors. They created these rules that allow teams to have an advantage over individuals, and there is literally no way to prevent this without allowing sites to take away your winnings based on any communication that you may have had with another player, collusion or not.

  • RangerC

    @tonytone1908 said...

    So how exactly would you prove that, undoubtedly, collusion was happening here? I don’t think you can, and until you can nothing is going to be done.

    It’s mathematically impossible to have 2 sets of 150 LUs with these nearly identical ownership percentages that do not overlap a single LU without coordination between the two accounts. I posted this in another spot, but the irony of this situation is that this particular collusive behavior only gives you a small advantage but it is impossible to dispute as collusion (unlike all those other situations that gain a greater advantage and are much harder to prove).

  • jjwd

    @emitnulB said...

    A group of legislators made an arbitrary rule about a game that they didn’t understand and now there’s a bunch of people complaining in this forum because the arbitrary rule can not be enforced in a way that prevents this type of play, even though it’s much harder for these guys to actually enter 300 times than it was prior to the legislation.

    Amen to this. But all of the angry mathematicians in this thread will keep ranting about how 50 max entries will fix everything. LOL

  • emitnulB

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    @jjwd said...

    Amen to this. But all of the angry mathematicians in this thread will keep ranting about how 50 max entries will fix everything. LOL

    Ha maybe 50 will fix everything, but you’ll be playing for 300k, not 1 mil.

  • jah2323

    @Mphst18 said...

    It’s really frustrating that the facilitator of the contests who are supposed to ensure the integrity of the contents can’t even find these things and its individual customers who have to.

    These guys were already caught once and kicked out of a contest so DK should have been monitoring them.

    totally agree, I’m not sure why this isn’t an issue considering it just happened 2 weeks ago and those scumbags profited hugely, clearly these 2 are more of the same since they’ve been caught before, I don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve lost any respect I had for a certain poster in this thread

  • GiantBallofOil

    Man it feels good to be back. I see The Forum continues to be a place where everyone is extremely nice to each other, and people’s rational discussion creates an environment where people can have their minds changed! Anyway. I figured I’d dip a toe.

    1) That evidence is both overwhelming and circumstantial. It leaves no question in my mind that these two fellas are in cahoots, but it also seems impossibly hard to prove. I say that because if DraftKings were to take any action against them, they’d certainly open themselves up to a legal dispute. It suffices to say their legal budget has to be stretched pretty thin right now, and even if it wasn’t, it seems impossible to prove, in a court room setting. I think it’s not greed, but rather risk-prevention that has them doing nothing.

    2) If you’re angry about this, the premise that these two are breaking terms of service seems less impactful than that they, in theory, are breaking the law. Draftkings didn’t go from 500 to 150 by choice. It’s to adhere to state laws (MA & NY, correct?). If you really wanted to go Full-Joker and see the world burn, you’d bring it up to DOJs in these states. (Please don’t. You know you’re just cutting off your nose to spite your face, and in the process, my face. I’m 10 out of 10 excited for the upcoming NFL season. Please don’t ruin it.)

    3) This weird line Assani is drawing where he acknowledges the syndicate but contests they are in violation of entry limits seems like a weird, unproductive, semantics argument that just fills sheets of forums for no reason. Once you acknowledge the syndicate, co-mingling financial and information resources, you just have to take one more baby step to assign the rules of one entity to them. The syndicate would have entry limits imposed on it, and the actual accounts wouldn’t matter.

    4) The reason for the top-heavy payout is nothing to do with appealing to or appeasing “sharks”. It’s for the marketing, plain and simple. Everyday Joes love plunking down $33 for the chance to win $1,000,000. It’s the same reason people play the lottery despite half the prize pool being taken as a vig. They have to know 40% to the winner is ridiculous, but it brings in more players.

    5) Do we have proof, yet, that they get an advantage by doing this? Not an opinion that it is an advantage, but some something to point to show that by getting more entries it is advantageous over the field? If so, I haven’t seen it. At least in Football I’ve never seen it.

  • PigskinaBlanket

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    sɪn·dɪ·kət

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @emitnulB said...

    Ha maybe 50 will fix everything, but you’ll be playing for 300k, not 1 mil.

    I disagree 50 entry limit would help a lot, of course wouldnt fix everything but it would help. I dont understand why people say the prize pools have to drop a lot, why? It was shown on thefantasyfantatics that the majority of entrants do not max enter. This would be much more sustainable for the ecosystem and probably would have a higher ratio of max entrants with 50 than there were with 150. Anyways the bottom line is that its a false narrative that we need to have 150 entry limit to have huge gpps.

  • Mphst18

    i think your second point is the biggest challenge as where is the line drawn between wanting dfs to continue but the only way to see clean up done or the company to do anything is through method 2.

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