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  • Mphst18

    DAUT44 and MIR84 already once caught colluding and disqualified from the kings cup by DK but still allowed to play on the site are back at it again colluding to circumvent the max entries for the millionaire maker so they have 300 entries.

    Each entered the max 150 lineups (MIR used 20 players) (DAUT used 22 players).

    The core 20 players used are identical with Reed (12% of DAUT lineups) and Finau (3.3% of DAUT lineups) as the 2 players DAUT used the MIR didnt.

    Both have 47%+ usage in lineups of main core of Kuchar, McIlroy, Molinari, Johnson, and Garcia.

    The Fact they these two who are known to work together, have been caught colluding before, have the same 20 players with near identical ownership %s yet have no lineups that overlap shows clearly they are doing this to have 300 entries (not the 150 limit).

    I understand these two are VIP players and dk generates a lot of revenue from them but how long will they allow their consumers to be unprotected and the integrity of their contests to be doubted.

  • smutpeddlers

    I would think that profit sharing would some how be able to be tracked down because you would have to write the other person a 1099 no?

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    There have already been multiple threads where Mphst18 makes an accusation, everyone piles on without any regards for nuance, and NOTHING ENDS UP GETTING ACCOMPLISHED. Do you really think this thread was finally gonna be the one to change things?

    You say “who cares about your questions?”….I think the people who actually want to get rid of cheating care, as they realize that our current approach isn’t getting us anywhere.

    If the mods would rather make my questions into a separate thread and let this thread replicate more of the ineffective methods we’ve used in the past then I’m cool with that.

    Please… I care about cheating go start another thread if you want to talk about all the detailed issues. This thread is not for that, its about discovering players have been doing this specific issue.

  • jdtrey

    Bottom line Assani, you’re not helping this move forward anywhere near as much as you seem to think you are. Questions were posed directly to you and your response was to pose more questions to the community. Do you really think anyone wants to debate/discuss your questions when you hadn’t even answered the ones posed to you? This all boils down to what DK decides to do, not what we as a community are able to come up with because frankly, DK won’t give a shit what we have to say on the matter anyway. You can’t fault these people for being upset over the fact that someone is clearly violating the TOS and DK hasn’t even come out and made a statement saying they were looking into it (other than in response to Cal).

  • jah2323

    @jdtrey said...

    Bottom line Assani, you’re not helping this move forward anywhere near as much as you seem to think you are. Questions were posed directly to you and your response was to pose more questions to the community. Do you really think anyone wants to debate/discuss your questions when you hadn’t even answered the ones posed to you? This all boils down to what DK decides to do, not what we as a community are able to come up with because frankly, DK won’t give a shit what we have to say on the matter anyway. You can’t fault these people for being upset over the fact that someone is clearly violating the TOS and DK hasn’t even come out and made a statement saying they were looking into it (other than in response to Cal).

    well said

  • JoakimNoah4Life

    @xdan3220 said...

    ssentially we are just helping each other out. On a grander scale if he and I decided to play full time and each day we both came up with a full range of projections for every player, combined them, and put them into a lineup generator and he took half and I took half and we each entered them but still had no access to each others accounts, no sharing of profits and no coordination (i.e. you enter this contest and I’ll enter this one, etc..) then that isn’t syndicate play that is simply sharing research at least in

    Ok, but we have to have realistic expectations on what can be monitored and enforced. Can you think of one possible way to monitor or verify profit sharing? Do you think if the rule was “ you can do this (split a pool of 300 and avoid duplicate lineups) but not profit share, we just have to trust that you wont profit share” that any of these high stakes teams would change what they are doing or end profit sharing if they had been previously doing it? In my opinion it wouldnt change a thing.

    I agree with your point on there not being a huge difference between “researching” and syndicate play provided no profit sharing, however the only thing I can find thats enforceable would be to not allow sharing a pool of lineups and avoiding duplicates.

    Lets be real…it’s not going to change too much either way….all they will do is switch a few players, throw in a duplicate or two and continue raking in the money (not saying this is a huge financial advantage, I’m saying these are some of the smartest people who are doing it, who would be profitable whether they did it or not…). The hope is that Draftkings actually takes their TOS seriously and actually make an effort to make it more difficult for players to engage in (my opinion) syndicate play.

  • AssaniFisher

    • 83

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #57

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @jdtrey said...

    Bottom line Assani, you’re not helping this move forward anywhere near as much as you seem to think you are. Questions were posed directly to you and your response was to pose more questions to the community. Do you really think anyone wants to debate/discuss your questions when you hadn’t even answered the ones posed to you? This all boils down to what DK decides to do, not what we as a community are able to come up with because frankly, DK won’t give a shit what we have to say on the matter anyway. You can’t fault these people for being upset over the fact that someone is clearly violating the TOS and DK hasn’t even come out and made a statement saying they were looking into it (other than in response to Cal).

    Ok cool, I’ll leave the thread. I truly do believe that this will go nowhere though. In a few weeks there will be another thread just like this with the same exact rhetoric. And I truly do believe that my approach would help matters a ton(and I think my experience in poker gives me good perspective on this).

    Also for the record I’m not sure what questions were posed to me that I didn’t answer….I tried to respond to everything, although maybe I overlooked something.

    Maybe in a few months when you guys haven’t accomplished anything with this approach then we can try my way???

  • JoakimNoah4Life

    @smutpeddlers said...

    I would think that profit sharing would some how be able to be tracked down because you would have to write the other person a 1099 no?

    Also, the fact of these two mentioned in original are working together has already been confirmed by themselves, by DK and by being kicked out of other events. I do not see how that is still in question.

    If it were just one event a year, yes, hypothetically you could verify with 1099s and tax forms. But if players/teams are profit sharing EVERY SINGLE DAY, 10’s of thousands of investments each day, across multiple sites, accounts, sports….it’d be impossible to verify.

  • shamrock77s

    @Ravensfan929 said...

    So has anybody reported this to Dk with the evidence and if so what was their response?

    The other thread with Mazwa/Ragingphillip was reported to DK 3 days ago from this site. No response that I am aware of. Not sure if they are aware of the exact same situation occurring in today’s contest.

  • Mphst18

    @AssaniFisher said...

    How much success have you had with your approach? Have the sites listened to you at all? Has there been any less cheating as a result of your work?

    I think your approach is ineffective. I think my approach would be much better. I do apologize if I should’ve started a separate thread instead of hijacking yours. As I said, mods are free to move my posts to another thread if they wish and I’ll leave this thread alone.

    Well let’s see they did get kicked out of the kings cup, more should have happened and the users should have been informed so I would say that was an accomplishment.

    I also have an email back on this from JA so we will see.

    I’m not sure exactly what cheating you have stopped besides the ones you may or may not have committed?

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Ok cool, I’ll leave the thread. I truly do believe that this will go nowhere though. In a few weeks there will be another thread just like this with the same exact rhetoric. And I truly do believe that my approach would help matters a ton(and I think my experience in poker gives me good perspective on this).

    Also for the record I’m not sure what questions were posed to me that I didn’t answer….I tried to respond to everything, although maybe I overlooked something.

    Maybe in a few months when you guys haven’t accomplished anything with this approach then we can try my way???

    Relax man. We are all still eagerly waiting on a response from DK. No one knows what will happen with this issue. All we want as a honest community is for DK to hold their word with their TOS. When we have blatant evidence of not only 1 but 2 recent situations it becomes an opportunity for DK to hold their word so we as a community can know they actually care about enforcing their own TOS.

  • 2incher

    @Ravensfan929 said...

    So has anybody reported this to Dk with the evidence and if so what was their response?

    I reported the mazwa/raginphilip collusion with 2 weeks of almost exact ownerships. Could not have gotten worse excuses/responses.

  • Chuky

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Ok cool, I’ll leave the thread. I truly do believe that this will go nowhere though. In a few weeks there will be another thread just like this with the same exact rhetoric. And I truly do believe that my approach would help matters a ton(and I think my experience in poker gives me good perspective on this).

    Also for the record I’m not sure what questions were posed to me that I didn’t answer….I tried to respond to everything, although maybe I overlooked something.

    Maybe in a few months when you guys haven’t accomplished anything with this approach then we can try my way???

    The only thing that will be accomplished is when DK hand is forced by regulators. Plain and simple. Your way also won’t go nowhere. These companies are too big and they only take major steps when scandal/ regulation is forced upon them. This thing is about ethics and the perception of the community as a whole. A lot of issues are gonna be fixed by regulators. You think Mphst18 is a watchdog? The real watchdogs are here, so whether DK wants to address it or not, it will be addressed. Same thing the employees playing and it was ignored until it was forcefully addressed

  • jdtrey

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Ok cool, I’ll leave the thread. I truly do believe that this will go nowhere though. In a few weeks there will be another thread just like this with the same exact rhetoric. And I truly do believe that my approach would help matters a ton(and I think my experience in poker gives me good perspective on this).

    Also for the record I’m not sure what questions were posed to me that I didn’t answer….I tried to respond to everything, although maybe I overlooked something.

    Maybe in a few months when you guys haven’t accomplished anything with this approach then we can try my way???

    I have zero issues with you and wasn’t trying to get you to leave the thread. I was referring to Benny specifically asking you what you thought the real issue was and what was just noise. You could’ve gone any different number of ways in your response but you chose to respond with 3 hypothetical questions we need to ask ourselves. I’d actually love to hear your real opinions, not just you asking different questions off the topic at hand.

  • Ravensfan929

    @2incher said...

    I reported the mazwa/raginphilip collusion with 2 weeks of almost exact ownerships. Could not have gotten worse excuses/responses.

    What were the responses?

  • shamrock77s

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Maybe in a few months when you guys haven’t accomplished anything with this approach then we can try my way???

    If not addressed by DK in a reasonable time frame, I’ll just vote with my dollars and stop playing on their site. It shouldn’t take someone from this forum reaching out to DK to point out issues with the integrity of their contests, they should have internal mechanisms in place which root out and prevent anything like this from occurring, especially after the black eye that the Ethan debacle left on the industry. But since DFS has and continues to fail to police itself, I guess it is imperative for the DFS community to figure out what other issues could occur and how to prevent more issues like this from happening.

  • tooltime

    @bolu said...

    Colluding with any other individual(s) or engaging in any type of syndicate play;
    Using a single Account to participate in a Contest on behalf of multiple entrants or otherwise collaborating with others to participate in any Contest;

    This is definitely not enforced. A certain website sells shares of a account. People are giving them money, they take the money and enter as many games as they can, all of the profit from the lineup is then split up.

  • jr1886

    • 2017 FanDuel WFBBC Finalist

    @AssaniFisher said...

    Ok cool, I’ll leave the thread. I truly do believe that this will go nowhere though. In a few weeks there will be another thread just like this with the same exact rhetoric. And I truly do believe that my approach would help matters a ton(and I think my experience in poker gives me good perspective on this).

    Also for the record I’m not sure what questions were posed to me that I didn’t answer….I tried to respond to everything, although maybe I overlooked something.

    Maybe in a few months when you guys haven’t accomplished anything with this approach then we can try my way???

    Assani, I think you should take this issue in your Vlog. I can understand your frustration.

  • teamcdot

    @tooltime said...

    This is definitely not enforced. A certain website sells shares of a account. People are giving them money, they take the money and enter as many games as they can, all of the profit from the lineup is then split up.

    Which site? Sounds enticing!

  • AssaniFisher

    • 83

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #57

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x6

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @jdtrey said...

    I have zero issues with you and wasn’t trying to get you to leave the thread. I was referring to Benny specifically asking you what you thought the real issue was and what was just noise. You could’ve gone any different number of ways in your response but you chose to respond with 3 hypothetical questions we need to ask ourselves. I’d actually love to hear your real opinions, not just you asking different questions off the topic at hand.

    Right. I think the “real issue” is tied to the answers to those questions. Arriving at a community consensus on those questions is the real issue. If you want me to give my thoughts on those questions and then summarize it with a conclusion then I will do so, but I usually like to hear others’ viewpoints before I jump to my own conclusion. I don’t pretend that I have all the answers; I simply think that I have a good approach to finding solutions. But it seems like many people prefer Mphst18’s method, so I’ll back off.

    I’m pretty confident that you guys will not be happy with DK“s response to this situation, and a similar type of thread(probably by Mphst18) will pop up in a few weeks. Then we’ll do this all over again where you guys blame the sites and the high stakes players, while ignoring the possibility that your approach is hindering progress.

    I know you weren’t trying to get me to leave the thread, but I have no desire to participate in this method because I think its a complete waste of time. If people want to pursue my line of questions then I’d be happy to participate in that discussion(perhaps in a different thread).

  • jah2323

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I’m pretty confident that you guys will not be happy with DK“s response to this situation

    This kinda sums it up for me

  • shamrock77s

    @AssaniFisher said...

    I’m pretty confident that you guys will not be happy with DK“s response to this situation, and a similar type of thread(probably by Mphst18) will pop up in a few weeks. Then we’ll do this all over again where you guys blame the sites and the high stakes players, while ignoring the possibility that your approach is hindering progress.

    I will be the first to say that I am not happy with DK’s response to the situation, because to this point, they have only responded with a canned email response to one forum member and the rest has been radio silence.
    If the site has a rule-and choose not to enforce it-then yeah, I would blame the site.
    If two max entries collude to break said rule-and then the site does nothing about it-then yeah, I would find fault with those players.
    It took State AG’s to get DK to agree to lower max entry limits, even though many in the DFS community had been calling for it for years. I’m curious on your take of what DFS players are doing to hinder progress in the sites cleaning up their own mess?

  • RangerC

    @jdtrey said...

    DK hasn’t even come out and made a statement saying they were looking into it (other than in response to Cal).

    I posted the original thread (mazwa/ragingphilip). I did get an actual CS response thanking me for the data and stating that they were looking into this and took TOS violation seriously. Also, mazwa/ragingphilip are not in the current MM.

  • tooltime

    @teamcdot said...

    Which site? Sounds enticing!

    Looked to me from seeing the lineup 10 times in every cash game that they had a avg score of 70 this week. So I think you should just “make better lineups” instead. Lol

  • Mphst18

    Seems like Assani wants to silence your voices to only here his own after interpreting your thoughts to confirm to his already decided viewpoint. Somewhere along the line Assani has self appointed himself as a liaison between you and the site.

    He doesn’t think this was a violation of entry limits since its two people ( he is smart enough to know it’s more complex then just two actual human beings but wants to ignore that). He thinks it matters if they split the money or not as to whether it is a violation of TOS.

    If anyone differs from him he just says hey I don’t like their approach see article below.

    http://dailyfantasynews.com/rayofhope-wants-dfs-pros-out-of-low-limit-contests

  • xdan3220

    @JoakimNoah4Life said...

    Ok, but we have to have realistic expectations on what can be monitored and enforced. Can you think of one possible way to monitor or verify profit sharing? Do you think if the rule was “ you can do this (split a pool of 300 and avoid duplicate lineups) but not profit share, we just have to trust that you wont profit share” that any of these high stakes teams would change what they are doing or end profit sharing if they had been previously doing it? In my opinion it wouldnt change a thing.

    I agree with your point on there not being a huge difference between “researching” and syndicate play provided no profit sharing, however the only thing I can find thats enforceable would be to not allow sharing a pool of lineups and avoiding duplicates.

    Lets be real…it’s not going to change too much either way….all they will do is switch a few players, throw in a duplicate or two and continue raking in the money (not saying this is a huge financial advantage, I’m saying these are some of the smartest people who are doing it, who would be profitable whether they did it or not…). The hope is that Draftkings actually takes their TOS seriously and actually make an effort to make it more difficult for players to engage in (my opinion) syndicate play.

    I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, and specifically the difficulty in policing this. Personally I think that it is a very high likelihood that these guys are working what we would consider syndicate play and profit sharing, but at the same time I think we all have a tendency to jump the gun a little bit. There is a very fine line between sharing research and syndicate play, and I think it ultimately comes down to the sharing of profits since that is what shows that players are getting access to lineups beyond the max entry limit. If a player realizes no benefit from the other players lineups than technically they aren’t circumventing the max entry limit, at least in my opinion. Frankly I’m not entirely sure that the sites can monitor this on their own, they probably need assistance from the states in making actual syndicate play illegal and making criminal charges against players that do so and seizing any profits realized from that type of play. At that point it actually wouldn’t be too difficult to enforce, the sites would have to provide state prosecutors with names of any persons suspected of syndicate play and let them determine if the profit sharing occurred. Believe me all it would take is for two people to be criminally charged and their profits from doing this seized to bring an end to this in a hurry.

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