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  • BurrTheBaddestB

    I’d like to first start this thread off by offering up a nice, big (albeit backhanded) congrats to four fine gentlemen on creating such a solid lineup for last night’s main NBA slate over on FanDuel. With that being said, here’s the 1K NBA Mini Shot contest where I noticed DFS players “bigbadjayman”, “mcbruce575”, “nando2”, and “rocketrubly” taking and tying for third place with the same lineup (and even more astonishing, their chosen players appearing in the EXACT same order).

    I personally don’t see the benefit of doing this in such a small contest other than colluding to split winnings down the middle. With that being said, though, the real question for me is this: “Why” and “Is this NOT against the rules” regardless? If this is so blatantly happening by the “small guys” in minimal risk/reward tournaments, we can all only imagine what goes on in the big GPP’s (regardless of entry fee) where it can’t be noticed quite as easily.

    With that being said (and just in case the link doesn’t work for some), their lineups consisted of the following players (in the EXACT same order, from top to bottom):

    PG: Westbrook
    PG: Irving
    SG: Harden
    SG: Shumpert
    SF: Barnes
    SF: Ingles
    PF: Morris
    PF: Powell
    C: Thompson

    I mean, c’mon.

  • KillaChap

    This seems to be a daily thing recently but it’s usually the big guys doing it. I have to hold back some anger if the smaller guys are doing it too since it’s “sticking it to the man.”

  • SelfCharmer

    Most likely reasons are:

    They “research” together, leading to similar LUs

    One person is a NBA specialist/ 1 PGA/ 1 MLB/ 1NFL and they shares LUs for each sport to help them play 4 sports very well between them

    More likely at the micro stakes: they are buying a LU because they are lazy and bad at DFS

  • shockermandan

    I would suspect this one is coincidence. There were 144 instances of this lineup in the Shot (134k entries) by lots of different players and tons of duplicate lineups right around that total.

    Shumpert and TT weren’t heavy owned, but I assume the correlation between those two plays is pretty high because of the mindset well… I’ll play guys that get usage from JR Smith and Kevin Love absences.

  • BurrTheBaddestB

    And I realize all of this too. The only reason it REALLY bothered me and I wanted to post it is because of WHO these guys had on an 8-game slate with a plethora of “value picks”.

    I mean c’mon: Shumpert, Barnes, Ingles, Morris, Powell, AND Thompson all in the SAME exact order?? Lmao.

    It’s bad enough we know the “pros” do it, but with these “little guys” now starting it up (and with decent enough future success), it seems as if just cashing, let alone winning a GPP, will be damn near impossible unless you happen to “know a guy” or two.

  • biglucky

    • x2

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    Are these tournaments becoming unplayable? That’s the question I’ve been asking myself for the past few weeks…This type of play is so rampant that its happening all the way from the single entry tournaments to the biggest ME GPP’s. Cash game are polluted with this type of play so another question I’ve been asking myself is it actually worth it anymore?

  • JCULL

    This is just one of the many reasons DFS is failing as an industry. A small percentage of the “pros” take advantaged of the system and with that take the monster share of the money. That’s why DFS can’t maintain a decent user base. It’s hard to get people to keep playing when 97% lose.

    DFS needs to be run more like poker. Multi LU’s need to be completely removed or drastically reduced and efforts to ensure there is no multi account players needs to be stepped up.

  • KillaChap

    @biglucky said...

    Are these tournaments becoming unplayable? That’s the question I’ve been asking myself for the past few weeks…This type of play is so rampant that its happening all the way from the single entry tournaments to the biggest ME GPP’s. Cash game are polluted with this type of play so another question I’ve been asking myself is it actually worth it anymore?

    I have never been too successful but I rarely, if ever, had to make deposits in NBA or NFL until this year. I doubt I’ve gotten any worse and I doubt everyone else suddenly got that much better but with all of this evidence of possible collusion, I’ve been asking myself if it’s been worth it for a few weeks now. Sadly, I’m moving to it not being worth it.

  • peachfuzz

    • Blogger of the Month

    This isn’t so much collusion as it is people straight up buying lineups from dishonorable cons. There really is not much that can be done about it regardless of the rules because it would be impossible to prove. Honestly though, I don’t think the problem is quite as big as people seem to think. It does suck hardcore on the nights when those lineups hit, but there are plenty of nights where they either min. cash, or just miss entirely. Even still, if you’re talking about a couple hundred lineups in a large field GPP, then it’s really a drop in the bucket.

    As to JCULL’s point, I would like to see the statistic which shows that 97% of people lose, or that DFS is a “failing industry.” I know the percentage of losing players is high, but I would say that anything in the 90th percentile is breaking even, and anything above that is slightly winning. The real question is, how do you make more people into winning players while still making the product attractive enough for big money players to stay in the pool?

    In reality, DFS is a skilled gaming, just like poker, and just like poker there has to be a substantial base of losing players to keep not just the winning players, but everyone interested as a whole. Not everyone can win, and not everyone should win. Increasing winners by doing stuff like increasing pay out places, and flattening payout structures does nothing more than water down DFS.

  • ElwoodB

    I’m calling it now: NBA is the first DFS sport that has been totally roont! Roont! It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if the best players got together and perfected their algorithm which would explain why you need a ridiculous score just to min cash.

    I’m done with NBA.

    We’ll see if they are able to ruin MLB and NFL next season…. which will then kill DFS for normal people.

  • rainbowtroutman

    interesting to see what happens in the next few weeks after NFL is done—-alot of people are done with NBA

  • ElwoodB

    Yup, if Fanduel and Draftkings don’t make some serious changes to the fundamental way this industry is run…. they will be out of business.

  • peachfuzz

    • Blogger of the Month

    @rainbowtroutman said...

    interesting to see what happens in the next few weeks after NFL is done—-alot of people are done with NBA

    This is my 3rd season playing, and also the 3rd season I have seen people yell about the sky falling, yet contests are full nightly.

  • sambo58

    • 2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    This is a optimal lineup from a website. I ran the optimal, but didn’t play it personally. I have never personally done very well just hitting optimize, so I end up building my own. I normally run the optimal just to see if there was a play I was missing. I agree that it is frustrating to see this going on. Basketball is my worst sport, and if I can’t beat an optimal lineup, then maybe I will quit NBA.

  • KillaChap

    @sambo58 said...

    This is a optimal lineup from a website. I ran the optimal, but didn’t play it personally. I have never personally done very well just hitting optimize, so I end up building my own. I normally run the optimal just to see if there was a play I was missing. I agree that it is frustrating to see this going on. Basketball is my worst sport, and if I can’t beat an optimal lineup, then maybe I will quit NBA.

    Here’s an interesting question; how is using an optimal lineup generated by a paid service not the same as buying a lineup? Not saying I agree with that logic but I am sure someone will.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @KillaChap said...

    Here’s an interesting question; how is using an optimal lineup generated by a paid service not the same as buying a lineup? Not saying I agree with that logic but I am sure someone will.

    Ask mods right here—RG has an optimal

  • jstevens2k11

    I also sub to a site that has an optimizer and it spit this out, but I didnt play it. Like sambo mentioned I use the sites opto to make sure I didnt miss anything worth looking into further..

  • sambo58

    • 2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    I think if you just plug and play an optimal lineup then it could be seen that way. Too many times on Twitter you will just see people brag about hitting optimize and winning money, so it attracts new users to that service and you have several of the same lineups in the contest.

  • dude_abides7

    @sambo58 said...

    This is a optimal lineup from a website. I ran the optimal, but didn’t play it personally.

    These website optimized should force the user to input at least one or two variables before it spits out a lineup. I get that their use is not “against the rules” but it is ruining DFS and the ‘game of skill’ angle that is keeping it legal.

    This is so obviously bad for DFS, but the sites are doing nothing. Honestly, I know a lot of us say all the time, ‘the sites don’t care about us (you)’, but this is just getting out of hand. A 5 year old could tell the sites are looking the other way OR are too enept at the top to figure out how to fix it.

    I understand this will be a tough issue to solve, but doing NOTHING is not the answer.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @dude_abides7 said...

    I understand this will be a tough issue to solve, but doing NOTHING is not the answer.

    In this case, I really think the sites can’t do anything. They cannot tell other sites to not produce opto’s.

  • sambo58

    • 2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    I think Dan made a point yesterday that you should have to make at least two selections yourself, or maybe the RG lineup builder forces you to do that. I agree with that logic, If I do build multiple lineups, I normally lock in at least 2-3 and go from there.

  • dude_abides7

    @rainbowtroutman said...

    In this case, I really think the sites can’t do anything. They cannot tell other sites to not produce opto’s.

    These ‘opti sites’ are making money on referrals. If they don’t change their rules, they don’t get their cut. Problem solved? Probably not, would it help? Yes.

  • ajs1281

    An optimizer hit and in a small field tourney, its not the end of the world guys. Will they cash sometimes, sure because if they sucked people wouldn’t pay for the content. Long term the sites can’t do anything, they can’t “force” outside sites to make people use inputs, that is impossible to do and still impossible to prove. Additionally at lower stakes you will find more of these lineups because of the skill level of the players and the fact that more multi-entering happens meaning more people likely to throw in the computer generated lineups. Factor in what is always said about NBA about it being the most predictable of the DFS sports and it is not a surprise that computer generated lineups are winning in NBA at a more noticeable rate.

    Are lineup sellers and optimizers bad for the game as a whole? Not really a fair question given that we are all on a site with a ton of research tools, projections, and its own optimizer. When does paying for the edge cross the line for you? Is it posting about plays with others? Is it looking at expert rankings and articles written by those people? Is it using the RG projections out of the box? Or is it only by entering the computer lineup?

    Look at the upside, people who cant create their own lineups now have more money to lose. If you can’t beat the computer lineups long term then unfortunately it comes down to 3 options, Get Better, Quit DFS or start paying. I usually hate “build better lineups” but in this case its true; there were a lot of ways to beat this computer lineup last night.

  • dude_abides7

    @ajs1281 said...

    An optimizer hit and in a small field tourney, its not the end of the world guys. Will they cash sometimes, sure because if they sucked people wouldn’t pay for the content. Long term the sites can’t do anything, they can’t “force” outside sites to make people use inputs, that is impossible to do and still impossible to prove. Additionally at lower stakes you will find more of these lineups because of the skill level of the players and the fact that more multi-entering happens meaning more people likely to throw in the computer generated lineups. Factor in what is always said about NBA about it being the most predictable of the DFS sports and it is not a surprise that computer generated lineups are winning in NBA at a more noticeable rate.

    Are lineup sellers and optimizers bad for the game as a whole? Not really a fair question given that we are all on a site with a ton of research tools, projections, and its own optimizer. When does paying for the edge cross the line for you? Is it posting about plays with others? Is it looking at expert rankings and articles written by those people? Is it using the RG projections out of the box? Or is it only by entering the computer lineup?

    Look at the upside, people who cant create their own lineups now have more money to lose. If you can’t beat the computer lineups long term then unfortunately it comes down to 3 options, Get Better, Quit DFS or start paying. I usually hate “build better lineups” but in this case its true; there were a lot of ways to beat this computer lineup last night.

    First off, I hate the use of absolutes here. That there is “nothing” the sites can do. That is rubbish.

    Also, there is a difference between a few guys using the same optimizer or discussing lineups and purposely entering the same entries into Single Entry games, circumventing the stated intent of rules and generally devaluing the fairness and integrity of DFS as a whole.

    What is the long play here? Does DFS want to be around in 2-5 years?

    EDIT: Or should I say “perceived fairness”? This is so much about the optics and DFS is not on the strongest grounds from a legal end. It would be mutually beneficial for everyone that the sites actually give the impression that they are trying to address this stuff. At current, that certainly isn’t what it looks like. It looks to me that their inaction is enabling it.

  • ajs1281

    Oh I absolutely agree with you there, it was more that the conversation went into optimizers and wanting to change that side of things when I don’t think that is the major issue right now in GPPs where this thread began. I am with you that the same people entering the same lineups in the same contest night after night should be flagged. That is what I want the sites to try to control, not to try to change the way sites with optimizers operate. I think the chipotle/papa thing along with the constant pros sharing the same lineup is horrible for the optics of the industry. I am also a big fan of limiting entries in low end contests, not just number of contests. I think the max entry for 50/50s and multipliers is stupid high given that people are just entering trains as it is. Force them up to the proper level to get the dollar exposure they want on a slate and if they are constantly lineup sharing let it have real penalties.

  • dude_abides7

    @ajs1281 said...

    Force them up to the proper level to get the dollar exposure they want on a slate and if they are constantly lineup sharing let it have real penalties.

    Letting the “pros” cannibalize each other as supposed to feasting on the casual folk would be an interesting angle. I can tell you with 100% certainly that the sites would not do this.

    We can all build better lineups all we want. We can decide to quit and not play. At the end of the day if you are not one of them you’re aren’t getting out alive. I guess we’re all idiots.

    “Just ‘cause we’re bereaved doesn’t make us saps!”
    Walter Sobchak

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