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  • Ghosty401

    I started like most having success in season long. Figured I would have success in DFS. Did at first. I put in my time with research. I play NFL, NBA and MLB. MLB is my favorite DFS sport (due to variance). I started with cash had success. Moved to tournaments not so much (single and multi entry). Moved back to cash and still doest seem worth the energy and $$. Maybe I’m just not good enough and should move on. Again I know this topic has been brought up before. Its a hard industry to make $$, but I like the process and I’m a sports fans! Not complaining. Just wondering what are everyone’s thoughts???

  • rausch180

    It’s extremely difficult to win long term, so the main thing is to at least enjoy doing it. If it’s no longer fun then could try taking a break and see if being away from it rekindles any excitement?

  • Ghosty401

    I can’t win cash with:

    Wentz

    Elliott
    Barkley

    Galladay
    C. davis
    N. Agholor

    Ricky Seals Jones

    David Johnson

    ARI Def

    ???

  • Ghosty401

    $1 and $2

  • Messiah717

    @Ghosty401 said...

    I can’t win cash with:

    Wentz

    Elliott
    Barkley

    Galladay
    C. davis
    N. Agholor

    Ricky Seals Jones

    David Johnson

    ARI Def

    ???

    What the hell do you want? Wentz had a brutal game, Arizona lost and RSJ was a cheap TE that did nothing. You feel your lineups are entitled to win?

  • yountingly

    • 280

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #38

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @Messiah717 said...

    What the hell do you want? Wentz had a brutal game, Arizona lost and RSJ was a cheap TE that did nothing. You feel your lineups are entitled to win?

    plus Agholor now the 4th option, at best, in the passing game. That was a reach.

  • bigez952

    @Messiah717 said...

    What the hell do you want? Wentz had a brutal game, Arizona lost and RSJ was a cheap TE that did nothing. You feel your lineups are entitled to win?

    To add onto everyone’s else’s comments Corey Davis also busted pretty hard this weekend. And all of the players in this lineup who did well Elliott, Barkley, Golladay, and Dj were all 30-65% owned so having them wasn’t going to single handily win you anything when you have duds in your other 5 spots.

  • Jvanspro

    Sorry man, 114 isn’t going to cut it.

  • lpdev

    @Ghosty401 said...

    I can’t win cash with:

    Cash games are tough. It seems like $1 to $2 cash games would be easy money taken from casual players. That’s a common misconception. What you actually end up facing is a bunch of people willing to dedicate hours of research, pay for the top optimizer and tools, and listen to podcasts and live streams only to risk a few dollars in a handful of cash games. It seems silly, but that’s how it works. Your actual casual player doesn’t play every day. When they do play putting up a $1 to win $1.80 or whatever seems as silly as it sounds. Instead they are drawn to the GPPs where you can play $20 and have a shot at a huge return.

  • rgrinders34

    dont be in it to win money. be in it to enjoy the process of researching, putting together lineups and following along every night. if you are just doing $1 and $2 it shouldnt become a money issue. if it is becoming a money issue quit.

  • flip4flop

    @lpdev said...

    Cash games are tough. It seems like $1 to $2 cash games would be easy money taken from casual players. That’s a common misconception. What you actually end up facing is a bunch of people willing to dedicate hours of research, pay for the top optimizer and tools, and listen to podcasts and live streams only to risk a few dollars in a handful of cash games. It seems silly, but that’s how it works. Your actual casual player doesn’t play every day. When they do play putting up a $1 to win $1.80 or whatever seems as silly as it sounds. Instead they are drawn to the GPPs where you can play $20 and have a shot at a huge return.

    The most accurate comment I have read in a while.

  • Ree4erMadness

    @lpdev said...

    Cash games are tough. It seems like $1 to $2 cash games would be easy money taken from casual players. That’s a common misconception. What you actually end up facing is a bunch of people willing to dedicate hours of research, pay for the top optimizer and tools, and listen to podcasts and live streams only to risk a few dollars in a handful of cash games. It seems silly, but that’s how it works. Your actual casual player doesn’t play every day. When they do play putting up a $1 to win $1.80 or whatever seems as silly as it sounds. Instead they are drawn to the GPPs where you can play $20 and have a shot at a huge return.

    This x 1000.

  • jv21

    @lpdev said...

    Cash games are tough. It seems like $1 to $2 cash games would be easy money taken from casual players. That’s a common misconception. What you actually end up facing is a bunch of people willing to dedicate hours of research, pay for the top optimizer and tools, and listen to podcasts and live streams only to risk a few dollars in a handful of cash games. It seems silly, but that’s how it works. Your actual casual player doesn’t play every day. When they do play putting up a $1 to win $1.80 or whatever seems as silly as it sounds. Instead they are drawn to the GPPs where you can play $20 and have a shot at a huge return.

    yep this

    OP take a break. If you want to play, play for fun.

  • sirrobert6

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Ghosty401 said...

    Maybe I’m just not good enough and should move on.

    Sadly, this is the end road for lots of people. Or, you can just change your goals and end game. I found the more I accept I suck at this and am doing it for fun, while still putting in time to learn (about five years, not to mention over a decade of poker), then DFS became more profitable.

    Everyone’s DFS results are as unique as the person themselves.

    I’m self-taught on guitar. I can’t tell you the amount of people that started learning the same time as me, during when I was learning how to play, after I got good, and later, after I had moved on, and they had all quit playing guitar, for whatever reason. Some spent five minutes, some spent five months, some spent five years, but eventually unless you mad love these things in life, you generally don’t spend more than a half-decade to a decade on them. You can either quit early, continue to adapt, or move on later. I didn’t quit early on guitar, adapted when it stopped getting the girls, and moved on when it wasn’t fun anymore. Sadly, I had to walk away with zero girls.

    One of the issues people have is coming to terms with the years they put into, for example, DFS, and having to walk away with nothing in their pocket. Chances are, these people were playing for money, and that’s why they lost, just like guitar and girls not getting me anywhere. If you do things for the wrong reasons, chances are insanely high you will lose. If you play DFS for money, chances are you will lose and not achieve your goals, because what happens in DFS is either you try too hard to make money, or once you do you try WAY too hard to make more (instead of keeping it). That is part of the drive to make money; making more, and that drive usually conflicts with how to actually make money.

    Anyone like Band of Brothers? Cpt Spears? Watch this and try to put into into DFS perspective.

    Scared? We’re all scared.
    You hid in that ditch because you think there’s still hope,
    But Blythe, you’re only hope is to accept you’re already dead.
    The sooner you accept that, the sooner you’ll be able to function as a solider.
    All war depends upon it.

    Losing? We’re all losing.
    You’re posting and complaining because you think there’s still hope,
    But Ghosty, you’re only hope is to accpet you’ve already lost.
    The sooner you accept that, the sooner you’ll be able to function as a DFS player.
    All profits depend on it.

    Good luck bro.

  • SkateFiend

    DFS is becoming a drag because there’s not quite enough highs to balance out the lows. It’s manageable in MLB. NBA is becoming more of a crapshoot every season.

    I’ve tried one lineup a day approach and hoo boy, I got wiped out fast or slowly ground to a loss. You get to learn the gambler’s fallacy playing DFS – just because you get hit with a wave of bad luck doesn’t mean there’s a streak of better days waiting to even it out.

    I used to play season long money games actively (still play a bit now, but not as much). That can get stressful because you have to mind the waivers every day, but unless the draft went horribly wrong, your team will be within reasonable range of third place. I once won 60 bucks on a 20 dollar league and I’m recoiling in horror at the thought of paying 20 dollars to play a GPP contest. It would be a guaranteed loss or no better than min cash on most nights.

    I don’t know, I think DFS has to evolve a bit to be competitive in the future. I would pay an annual membership (let’s say 50 bucks) to play at a site with reasonable entry limit and payout structure where min cash is essentially third place.

    I’m sure others have ideas on how to make the game more fun and casual. You just feel like someone will innovate out of the blue and DK and FD will be left in the dust like Myspace.

  • XxHeisenbergxX

    Most of my action goes to sports betting it is a bit boring but its profitable (I play one or two games a week), I have scaled back DFS quite a bit to the point twice a week or I may play a late night slate cause I work 3rd shift. The only time I really invest is if I really like a game that I feel is going to be competitive and high scoring, and one or two games I have a strong feeling about to fill in the gaps…when I stick to this game theory I usually profit…no big scores but enough to keep me going which for me is enough. I will not be giving up my job anytime soon, but I do this for entertainment and I do not expect to hit big or ever compete vs the big sharks…as long as my circles on DK end up over the green line I am happy LOL. I only play NFL, NBA (late slates) and I enjoy playing a single entry golf tourney during the summer. I hate baseball.

  • 2Slik

    With the rake and experts maxing out lobbies to raise the competition level, a break even player in my book is considered a pro.

  • NIN1002

    You want to know what the problem is? Here it is:

    https://sports.yahoo.com/dailyfantasy/contest/3595553/73168752

    2nd – 7th place – Lineup optimized guys
    8th – 32nd place – Lineup optimized guys (and two max entered 10 times)
    52nd – 61st – moklovin’s 10 lineups
    65th – 78th place – papagates 10 lineups and his train of people

    Feel free to continue scrolling. Obviously playing against guys who lineup optimize with other guys who use those optimizers, then they max enter into the contest pretty much seals the deal.

    DFS is NOT poker (as much as everyone likes to think it is). What this really is is some guy sitting down at a cash game with his $100 buy in and playing against players that have $5000 in chips. All they do is push him all in over and over and rake him to the coals with their OP chip stacks. Want to buy back in for another $100? Sure, but everyone else at your table will still have $5000 so they’ll just pound you again. Who cares if it’s fair?

    And this is what DFS is. The few enter SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many contests and on top of that enter the same lineup as many times as legally allowable and it’s just game over. They just OP you with their overwhelming bankrolls (and they know exactly what they are doing, but don’t care whatsoever…probably hence why you never see these people chat in any forums on any sites ever as they know they are hated by all and have no issues taking ALL the money unless the sites or regulation tell them otherwise). The sites know this, but there is 0.00000% chance they’ll wise up as simply put the moklovins and papagates pay their salaries. There is no way in hell they will reduce their entries and to hell with the level playing field. It’s all about taking in more $$$$.

  • DraftboardDan

    Draftboard Rep

    The poker analogy can be taken further. High stakes poker players don’t play micro stakes because their quality of play decreases for each additional table they add. DFS is 100% passive post lock so there’s no disincentive for a pro who wants $1k in action on a given day to enter the cheapest contests possible up to a total of $1k in entries. If that pro is playing for a living, has a family, etc, it’s not realistic to expect them to do anything but seek the maximum profit from their job.

    It’s a multi-faceted issue though. The pros are gonna do what’s most +EV. The recs want lottery style prize pools. The only way to build those prize pools is through contest structures that are extremely -EV to rec players, which also happens to result in max revenue for the site. Everyone is getting what they (think they) want so there’s no incentive for change.

    What needs to change is the embedded notion that fantasy sports and hitting the lottery are linked. Rec players need to value fair contest structures over potential payouts. When we started development on Draftboard I was very confident we could be that change. To be blunt, I’m much less so now, but I don’t care.

    We should probably remove the restriction that users registered in high stakes contests cannot play low stakes contests. We won’t. We should probably offer mass multi-entry GPPs so the prize pool numbers in our lobby look prettier. We really don’t want to.

    I can confidently say Draftboard is the fairest DFS site on the planet. I can’t confidently say we’ll be around next NFL season. But we’re gonna go down fighting.

  • txdave41

    I hate to say, but there is an addiction to DFS that I can’t seem to break away. I’ve told myself countless times that I’m done for good only to try one more lineup that fails. I hope 2019 is the year I put an end to this madness. It’s definitely not fun to sit back night after night and just watch things unfold in a way to screw me almost every time. Like last night, I gave Draft another try and all my players were putting up big scores like Emid, Sabonis and Harrell. The only possible thing that could ruin my chances happened. Westbrook ended up playing and having a monster night while Schroder gave me one of his worst scores of the season. Even when I get it mostly right, I still can’t cash a freaking dime.

    I’ll look at my DFS days as a period of great stupidity, paying money night after night all for the reward of getting pissed off extremely at the results.

  • Smallchimp

    The biggest thing I’ve seen this NFL-NBA season (I skipped MLB for the most part) is that there’s no easy cashing. No matter what contest, you’re not going to be able to bully some quick cash by watching a video or two, reading articles, and doing a little research because everyone else is doing that. That’s the new average casual player, the 30-40 year old guys tossing a couple dudes together on a gut feeling is a shrinking demographic. And like others said, this isn’t high stakes, this is $1 cash games like the 3 or 5 man winner take all’s. It makes sense that people are doing what they can to be profitable, this is a money game, but the critical mass of information that everyone’s all over makes it a competition between models, optimizers, and expert opinions and you’re almost better off following your gut because if the numbers miss, you might get lucky. I’m not saying this isn’t a game of math, but everyone is playing the numbers, not just pro’s.

    And as far as the “stop trying to win life-changing money” thing, that’s why a lot of people play. They want to turn $20 into $1,000,000, not turn $20 into $36. It’s just how casual gambling is. The average person has a job and perception of money where they ask why they’re risking money just to have a chance at $1.80 per dollar bet. $20 in their pocket makes more sense than putting it on the table hoping they can nail everything and still not be any better off because $16 extra is Applebee’s for one nowadays. Does the nickel and diming, cash game strategy make sense when you’re a volume player and potential 180% return means $100’s in profit, or even $50 a night net? Yeah, but given what I said earlier about the skill (content consumption) cap, entering cash contests is too much risk for too little reward for someone who’s playing a single bullet or two in a big GPP.

  • sirrobert6

    • Blogger of the Month

    @jriesel315 said...

    the 30-40 year old guys tossing a couple dudes together on a gut feeling is a shrinking demographic.

    This is so true it’s scary.

    That’s why for a couple years I’ve been predicting the next step for DFS will be a professional club system, where DFS becomes a openly-team sport, and create a professional league of DFS where clubs play each other.

    To me it’s the only logical next step. With the demographic moving towards the avg. player actually being way more than avg there will be no reoccurring market creation. Eventually unless you are really good you won’t be playing, and the only venue or area where very good people would want to consistently and exclusively play against each other with no ability to hunt fish…yeah, pro league DFS.

  • joephoto

    Glad I found this thread.
    There is a lot of truth here,
    and the truth hurts.

  • Blahaaron

    I mostly will only play the micro booster top 5 win 10 dollar games. The get rich quick mindset is a lose lose from my experience.The more you spend, the more you’re likely to lose. I’ve withdrawn 200 dollars so far since the start of the NHL season in October, mostly from my micro booster winnings. Ive won 32 of them, so far. Might not seem like a lot to the big timers, but I’ve only deposited money once and that was at the very first day. You just gotta find out what works for you and stick with it. I would like to be a big timer and spend thousands a week on lineups, but that’s not me. I’m just a small stakes player who plays mostly games with no more than 237 entries. Every one has to find their niche. And everyone has one.

  • MKL83

    @Ghosty401 said...

    I can’t win cash with:

    Wentz

    Elliott
    Barkley

    Galladay
    C. davis
    N. Agholor

    Ricky Seals Jones

    David Johnson

    ARI Def

    ???

    I think I played the exact same line-up last week.

  • Smallchimp

    @sirrobert6 said...

    This is so true it’s scary.

    That’s why for a couple years I’ve been predicting the next step for DFS will be a professional club system, where DFS becomes a openly-team sport, and create a professional league of DFS where clubs play each other.

    To me it’s the only logical next step. With the demographic moving towards the avg. player actually being way more than avg there will be no reoccurring market creation. Eventually unless you are really good you won’t be playing, and the only venue or area where very good people would want to consistently and exclusively play against each other with no ability to hunt fish…yeah, pro league DFS.

    Whether or not it’s the case, DFS is going to end up being simply who has the better algorithm and who can shut out the math when necessary to follow the narratives and coach speak and other non-quantified factors. Sports are always going to have that human element that’s not as easy to put a number on, but if you don’t have the algorithm, you’ll be in the dust when the math is right even if you get the gut-feeling calls right.

    It sucks that DFS will inevitably be as inaccessible as professional poker, but I don’t really know how you fix it besides maybe doing tier-based contests where if your daily/weekly/monthly/annual earnings determine who you play against. You can always shrink the contests, but like I said, Mike in accounting doesn’t want to spend his day/week on DFS just to win $2.70 per $1 or a $250 grand prize. I feel like the only solution is to do fairly small tiers where there’s participation to warrant big prize pools. Sharks will always shark, but fish need as much protection. Sadly, fish are getting bigger with the increase in readily consumable information and there’s less of a place for the average joe to make a hobby out of DFS.

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