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  • CaptainKirk12

    • x2

      2016 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel NFL Playboy Mansion Finalist

    I was looking at the overall player rankings and points awarded for H2H contests. I’ve noticed that if you win a $10 H2H contest (FanDuel) you are awarded 6.03 points while if you win a $109 H2H contest you are awarded 25.30 points. Despite the $109 contest being 10x the $10 H2H you are awarded less than 5X the amount of points.

    This calculation heavily favors players who run a high volume at the low stakes. For example, A player who has won (10) $10 H2Hs will be awarded a total of 60.3 points while a $109 victory only nets you 25.30 points despite the total profit/payout being near identical.

    I’m just interested in the math/equation that goes behind the overall ranking points system and how many points you are awarded based on a contest.

    Seems like the ranking system tends to greatly favor a player who plays volume of $5 & $10 games rather than a player who plays less volume at higher price points. Thoughts?

  • Ross

    https://rotogrinders.com/pages/rotogrinders-rankings-faq-158

    Some of the formulas and calculations can be found at that link.

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 588

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    We had a meeting about the rankings system this late last year with a group of players and all the muckymucks at RG headquarters and it was the consensus of the players who were present that the root system would be either muted heavily or removed completely.

  • CaptainKirk12

    • x2

      2016 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel NFL Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @alsmizzle said...

    We had a meeting about the rankings system this late last year with a group of players and all the muckymucks at RG headquarters and it was the consensus of the players who were present that the root system would be either muted heavily or removed completely.

    Thanks for the response Al.

    Is it possible the formula is changed sometime this year? Seems if all H2Hs were awarded points at the same ratio it would drastically change the Overall Player rankings.

    Is there a reason the current system values lower stake wins so at such a higher rate?

  • Priptonite

    • Blogger of the Month

    No offense, but why do you care about the rankings? Since RG cannot report on losses they will never be a real representation of skill. Higher volume/buy-in players will always trend towards the top.

  • CaptainKirk12

    • x2

      2016 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel NFL Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @Priptonite said...

    No offense, but why do you care about the rankings? Since RG cannot report on losses they will never be a real representation of skill. Higher volume/buy-in players will always trend towards the top.

    I understand that RG can not report on losses and the rankings will never be a representation of the players with the highest ROIs. However, I think the rankings are still interesting and fun (especially the TPOY)

    Your point about the higher buy-in players is not completely true in the current system. As I pointed out earlier, it’s heavily skewed to favor the volume of contests rather than the volume of buy-in. If the points were awarded at the same ratio at every price level the Overall Player would at least show whose gross earnings were the highest.

  • crazypaul

    I am a small dollar player, mostly $1 GPPs. I wish there was a way to see my ranking compared to other players with a similar average buy in as me so I could judge a little better how good I am compared to others who enter $1 GPPs.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 515

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @CaptainKirk12 said...

    Thanks for the response Al.

    Is it possible the formula is changed sometime this year? Seems if all H2Hs were awarded points at the same ratio it would drastically change the Overall Player rankings.

    Is there a reason the current system values lower stake wins so at such a higher rate?

    Good questions Kirk.

    The reason the current system dampens higher prize pools is to decrease the effects of the huge prize pool winners.

    We dampen the effect of the higher prize pools by taking a 3/5ths root of the prize pool. If we took no root of the prize pool escot4, the winner of the Fanduel FFFC, would have won the Tournament Player of the Year award last year mainly based off of that one win.

    We and the players we’ve consulted agree that the current system dampens larger prize pools too dramatically. We’re in the process of changing that formula, simplifying the “diversity bonus,” and working out a few other kinks. We’re most likely moving to a 4/5 root, which would cause a pretty heavy shakeup in the rankings but not allow the big prize pool winners dominate the standings based off one win.

    We hope to have this wrapped up by the end of February.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 515

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Priptonite said...

    No offense, but why do you care about the rankings? Since RG cannot report on losses they will never be a real representation of skill. Higher volume/buy-in players will always trend towards the top.

    People care about the rankings for a variety of reasons.

    1. competition
    2. recognition
    3. even though its not ROI based, volume has a close correlation to skill. Look at the current top 10: Condia, Birdwings, CSURam, ehafner, Kcannon, dinkpiece, keith3101, gannondorf, Troll4MVP, and TheClone. These are not guys just spewing cash for fun.
    4. Our TPOY is a better system for determining Player of the Year than simple ROI. escot4 would have blown away the field based off of one win in a simple ROI system last year.

  • CaptainKirk12

    • x2

      2016 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel NFL Playboy Mansion Finalist

    I appreciate the response Cal, look forward to seeing how things shake out after a change in the formula. You also nailed it on the head in your reasoning behind why people including myself care/enjoy the rankings.

    I completely understand the need for the 3/5 root for TPOY rankings due to the championships & live events that have huge prize pools. My only concern was with the Overall Player Ranking Just didn’t understand the need for such a drastic difference in the points system for the various H2H price points.

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 588

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    @Cal said...

    1. competition
    2. recognition
    3. even though its not ROI based, volume has a close correlation to skill. Look at the current top 10: Condia, Birdwings, CSURam, ehafner, Kcannon, dinkpiece, keith3101, gannondorf, Troll4MVP, and TheClone. These are not guys just spewing cash for fun.
    4. Our TPOY is a better system for determining Player of the Year than simple ROI. escot4 would have blown away the field based off of one win in a simple ROI system last year.

    This is spot on in all four bullet points.

  • emac

    @Cal said...

    4. Our TPOY is a better system for determining Player of the Year than simple ROI. escot4 would have blown away the field based off of one win in a simple ROI system last year.

    This is the key, it was good to see that the massive wins did not overpower the rankings for this category.

  • Jwest27

    • 2019 FanDuel FantaSea Finalist

    • 977

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2019 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    Are Head to Head wins factored into the TOURNAMENT PLAYER OF THE YEAR ? If so why? It should be GPP only since that is indeed what a tournament is

  • DugFister

    • 2017 RG Season Long Champion: MLB

    @Jwest27 said...

    Are Head to Head wins factored into the TOURNAMENT PLAYER OF THE YEAR ? If so why? It should be GPP only since that is indeed what a tournament is

    H2H is not factored in TPOY.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 515

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @DugFister said...

    H2H is not factored in TPOY.

    Correct, thanks. Here are the FAQs for both Rankings and the TPOY:

    https://rotogrinders.com/pages/rotogrinders-rankings-faq-158

    https://rotogrinders.com/pages/rotogrinders-tpoy-faq-137241

  • hambazaza

    RG Blog Program Manager, 2014 RG Party Beer Pong Champion

    • Blogger of the Month

    • Beer Pong Champion

    TPOY has its criteria identified in the FAQ page, only GPPs with $10K prize pools or higher I believe are counted.

    the way it currently calculates isn’t necessarily flawed as it is tending towards a high volume player regardless of their win rate. If I were a player who put in $20K a night at a win rate in h2h of 55% I’d be slightly losing after rake is taken into account but my rankings would have a dramatic boost and I’ll probably be a top 5-15 player. drop that win rate to 50% or less and i’m losing even more money and my ranking would still be top 100 at least.

    but if i were a $50 a night player who won 70+% of my h2hs then my ranking wouldn’t be that high because it’s a cumulative score rather than a per win score. my win rate is higher than the 20K a night player, but since i’m not putting in as much i dont get as much “recognition”

    I dont think it should change too drastically though, there is merit to a guy who is willing to put in 20K a night regardless of his ability to win successfully. you’ll see people pop up every once in a while and play at those high levels, its unsustainable if you dont win (unless you pump in money from other sources) but if you’re barely winning a small percentage and beating the rake then absolutely putting in 20K should be worth more than putting in $50, i dont think that should change.

  • alsmizzle

    • 2013 RotoGrinders TPOY Champion

    • 588

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    That’s the thing Hambazaza, what you say about a player who is a losing player being able to rack up RG ranking points by winning 40-50% of their h2h games is tru, but since the rankings are on a 365 day rolling total that person would have a negative expectation every single day that they invest in DFS and unless they’re a billionaire playing those levels and losing, that person isn’t going to make it a month let lone 365 days to be able to make any sort impact on the rankings.

  • csuram88

    • 147

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #99

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x7

      2014 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2014 DraftKings FBWC Champion

    If you are concerned with the rankings there certainly is an incentive to play a high volume of lower stakes games. The h2h calculation favors playing low volume in H2Hs as CaptainKirk pointed out. In addition, the biggest rank booster relative to $ invested is placing high in the low stakes $1 and $2 big double ups. I am not sure how much the rankings impact sharks/grinders playing low limit games but if someone was trying to move up the rankings and understood the system they certainly would attack these games.

  • Putz

    It’s been discussed many times the biggest flaw in the system is, for the same prize pool, rewarding the same # of points to someone who beats 1 person in a H2H as someone who beats 999 other people in a GPP. Beating 999 other people >>>>>>>> 1 person.

  • madchuck

    I personally like the rankings and although its flawed, I think it’s a good barometer to where you stand in the DFS community. And even though it rewards volume players, nobody would be able to sustain playing at that volume if they weren’t winning or at least breaking even on a nightly basis.

  • hambazaza

    RG Blog Program Manager, 2014 RG Party Beer Pong Champion

    • Blogger of the Month

    • Beer Pong Champion

    @alsmizzle said...

    That’s the thing Hambazaza, what you say about a player who is a losing player being able to rack up RG ranking points by winning 40-50% of their h2h games is tru, but since the rankings are on a 365 day rolling total that person would have a negative expectation every single day that they invest in DFS and unless they’re a billionaire playing those levels and losing, that person isn’t going to make it a month let lone 365 days to be able to make any sort impact on the rankings.

    excellent point, and i wasnt trying to imply that anybody in the top XX was actually a losing player, I have no way of knowing that, I do know that my volume is small and I haven’t exactly lost money but im ranked somewhere between 700-1000 everywhere. To me, the rankings are more of an indication of my volume. in months that i grind through every day i climb up in monthly rankings to 300ish or so, on months that i slow down im around 700-1000…

    guys in the top 100 or so are most guaranteed to be at least break even winners since they are consistenly there. The only way to think otherwise is if they are supplementing their losses by other “expert” work that they do, etc. again, I have no way to know either way, but its interesting.

  • Putz

    I disagree. Higher entry contests trumps volume. Look at those lesser popular sports and see some people who have 1 or two $5k, $1k, or $500 wins in those sports that they don’t know or play, then, when aggregated with other sites, they are ranked in the top 25 for said sports, and when those sports are aggregated with sports that do play regularly, then give them a top 25 overall ranking. See CFB top 25 for examples.

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