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  • Landa501

    I don’t understand this. Why do I see names like BritDevine and Hoop in $1 50/50’s to win 80 cents?

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @superstars92 said...

    Lol before you start personally attacking me, maybe you should re-read my post…you obviously intentionally cherry-picked what I said or have reading comprehension issues.

    “Of course the pricing is fair and competitive (of course to a company’s standpoint, not a consumer’s standpoint). Have you found some better alternatives that cost less? If you haven’t, then the drug company is clearly doing the right thing to maximize profits,”

    You are making the assumptions that pricing is “fair” and “competitive” based on what? The fact that the residents of the United States cant go outside of this country to purchase prescription drugs at a huge discount? Is that what you mean by “fair” and “competitive”? That in February Congress could not pass a law allowing its citizens to have access to foreign drug markets? Is that fair and competitive? That a single payer health insurance system is PROVEN to be more cost effective and a better use of premiums than one based on a free market model because in a single payer system 94% of premiums are used on actual healthcare costs while in a capitalistic, free market model only 80% of insurance premiums go towards actual health care costs? Once people are clued into these facts we will not have a free market system for drugs and health care for very much longer. Unfortunately, people are too hung up on words like “socialism” before they know what they are talking about.

    Countries, like Canada, have laws that set maximum prices that drugs hey import can cost, sometimes up to 55% LESS than prices in the US. US citizens do not have access to these markets, legally. Yet these drug companies keep exporting drugs to Canada. I would assume they are doing so at a profit. And they keep selling drugs in the US at highly inflated prices, gouging the US consumer.

    Health and prescription drugs can’t be in a capitalist market precisely because they WONT do the right thing, morally. You are saying they are doing the right thing according to the rules of the capitalist market and “that is just the nature of the beast”. How is that helping anybody but the companies and shareholders? When you say “that is just the nature of the beast” it sounds like you are just accepting the way things are and that nothing can be done to change things, which is 100% false. We could have a system that is completely different and better.

    I apologize if my post seemed attacking. It’s just that I get a little upset when I saw someone talk about how a guy has to spend $55k on drugs for his wife that has cancer and you repeatedly say things like “It’s just the way it is”, “that is the nature of the beast”, etc. Oh well, that’s just the way things are in this country; tough luck you and your wife are living in the United States. But hey, if you were living in Europe or any other 1st world country, you wouldnt be having this problem. How exactly is that helping this guy’s wife? Maybe I took that a little too personal. So sorry about that.

    Obviously I’m getting way off topic here and I’d be happy to continue this conversation in PM’s.

    As far as DFS goes, again changes have been made and will continue to be made. There isnt some status quo in which nothing can change. But cash games have been unplayable for years now for 95% of DFS players. It’s too bad people have to find this out the hard way.

    I think a good start in changing things would be to improve the rating system put in place by the sites. What is in place now is a joke. Another improvement would be able to use these ratings and filter the games using them. For instance you could have a slider that would tell you the percentage of players between certain ranks currently entered in each game you are looking to enter. If the sites wont do it, I“m sure a developer on here could come up with something. I just thought that up while I was sitting here typing this. It’s not that difficult to come up with improvements. These sites are able to track every move the players make and how much they are playing per day. Say if you play $5k of games a day, only a certain percentage of your games could be at the $1 level. If you play $1k of games a day, a different percentage level and so on. I thought the sites had a max number of games you could enter per day but maybe that is not the case anymore, which could be helping to cause the problem expressed by the OP. I’m just throwing ideas out there.

    If nothing is done to improve the current system and there are more people quitting then joining the sites, eventually this whole thing will implode on itself. So I would think it would be in everyone’s interest to keep coming up with ideas on how to improve things instead of just accepting the status quo.

    .

  • superstars92

    Yea let’s just go back on topic with the original discussion. I guess this is why I normally don’t talk about politics lol.

    Anyways, you kind of are making my point for me with these statements directly from you. Let me just quote a few, and then I’m not going to talk about this anymore since it’s way too off topic. However, I will relate it to DFS.

    1. “I apologize if my post seemed attacking. It’s just that I get a little upset when I saw someone talk about how their wife has to spend $55k on drugs for their wife has cancer and you repeatedly say things like “It’s just the way it is”, “that is the nature of the beast”, etc. Oh well, that’s just capitalism for you, tough luck your wife and you are living in the United States. But hey, if you were living in Europe or any other 1st world country, you wouldnt be having this problem. How exactly is that helping this guy’s wife?”

    Well if you re-read my post, first of all, I said I feel sorry for the situation he was going through, and I wished him and his wife the best of luck. I even said if I had enough money or influence one day, I would try to change the system to be more like what Jimmy Wales is doing with Wikipedia (non-profit, just covering his costs). I’m not sure if you read that or not. Anyways, I can’t help the guy’s wife. None of us can. I was just pointing out that if it costs him 55k to pay for medical bills, that’s just the system. It’s just like FD/DK. If they aren’t going to regulate the pros entering low level tourneys, that’s just the system. Just like pros who won’t reduce their profits by not playing in low level stakes, these companies are not going to reduce the costs without laws and regulation because they want to maximize profits. I don’t see what is there to not understand here. I’m not making fun of his wife or even saying the system is right. I’m just stating facts. The US can change the system, sure, but I don’t have any influence to change that system. Just like in DFS, the people with the influence are the pros, and they do not want to change the system.

    2. “These companies also are not doing the right thing. These drug companies have plants in Canada and other countries where they produce and sell these drugs at a fraction of the cost. Or the countries, like Canada, have laws that set maximum prices that drugs can cost, sometimes up to 55% LESS than prices in the US. US citizens do not have access to these markets, legally.”

    Your last statement perfectly summarizes my entire point. They don’t have access to these markets legally, so why should health and drug companies reduce the costs in the US? They are offering a completely fair price in terms of the current supply and demand. They are offering a competitive price in terms of the supply and demand, relative to other companies. That’s fair and competitive. Again, it’s fair and competitive for the company, not for the consumer. I stated that though, and you even quoted me on it. Unless laws and regulations are passed (similar to DFS like if DK/FD could regulate this low entry issue better or do things like reduce max entires), there is absolutely nothing wrong with what these companies are doing in terms of economics. Why do you think the drug prices in Canada are less? It’s because there are laws and regulations. The prices in Canada reflect the fair and competitiveness of the market in Canada….just like the higher prices in the US reflect the fair and competitive market in the US.

    3. “Health and prescription drugs can’t be in a capitalist market precisely because they WONT do the right thing, morally. You are saying they are doing the right thing according to the rules of the capitalist market and “that is just the nature of the beast”. How is that helping anybody but the companies and shareholders? When you say “that is just the nature of the beast” it sounds like you are just accepting the way things are and that nothing can be done to change things, which is 100% false. We could have a system that is completely different and better.”

    I’m not a politician. If I were (or had money or influence), I actually would change the laws somewhat more to what you are arguing for. I did mention that though in my post, so we actually both believe in the same philosophies. It’s just that I’m saying that’s the way things are now, so just deal with that. Things now in DFS are pros can max enter, they can enter any stake, so rather than complain, we should take the time to get better and win off of these pros (or do other things like avoid these pros, not play cash games, etc. – things we can currently control).

    Anyways, you seem pretty passionate about this topic. I guess that’s good. I don’t really have a strong view either way, but like I said, if I were to become super influential or rich one day, I actually would probably lobby to have a system more in line with what you are saying (not as extreme as say Sweden, but less free-market than current US). Ok let’s go back to the original discussion =). I hate talking about econ lol. I’ll rather talk about math/science haha.

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    I think our main difference can be summed up by I believe things can be changed for the better. You seem to think you dont have any power in what is supposedly is a free society. You believe in “controlling what you can control”. For you it seems, that means just dealing with how things are and makin the best of it. However, we live in a society where people dont have to live like that.

    “ Anyways, I can’t help the guy’s wife. None of us can.” and

    “ I was just pointing out that if it costs him 55k to pay for medical bills, that’s just the system. “. and

    “We can change the system, sure, but I don’t have any influence to change that system.”

    That was just in your previous post. You’ve repeated this theme over and over in your posts. I think this is where we fundamentally differ. The thing is you DO have the capability to make changes. Listen as an example I harped on Fanduel for MONTHS, even talked to somebody in person about how stupid it was to have h2h games listed in alphabetical order and how this was hurting me. Guess what? They finally changed it at some point. So evidently enough people complained and they implemented a fix. That is just one example of how we can change things for the better.

    Same thing with the issue of people having 6 or 7 figure bankrolls and playing in $1 games. I think the problem right now is how to deal with it or if it can even be dealt with or even if it should be dealt with. That’s why this topic keeps coming up every month, because nobody has those answers. I would have thought that setting a max number of games one can play in would have solved this. Evidently, the sites arent monitoring this anymore or the max number of games has increased, or something else is going on we arent aware of.

  • SelfCharmer

    Didn’t think a topic on pros entering low buy-in cash games could get any more annoying. Shows how wrong I can be.

  • dsdw7584

    I apologize if some of my post has already been covered,but I wanted to add my 2cents….

    1. If you are placing money on a contest EXPECT TO LOSE….if you win awesome,if you lose no harm no foul on to the next one….in other words,if you can’t afford to lose it don’t bet it.

    2. You are NOT the only one on here trying to win….there must be winners,there must be losers…..If you find yourself losing far more than winning then either A. STOP! or B. Learn why this is and correct it……Yes,this takes time and effort heaven forbid,but if you’re expecting it just served up and on a silver platter then by all means keep playing as some of us could really use that kind of competition

    3. Yes there are some damn good ppl playing and quite often raking in the dough……someone finds a way to win and therefore keeps doing such? NOOOOOOOOOOO! How heinous of them!

    4. Stop thinking of this as a get rich quick scheme.For some it sure can be,for most not so much…Think of it more as an investment….The returns may or may not be so forthcoming,but with perseverance,education,time and effort one can eventually attain or even surpass the levels of those currently bitchsmacking them now.

    5. Wish ya luck!

  • djcory27

    I’ve brought this topic up on the daily NBA thread on multiple occasions and enjoyed this thread. I completely understand why guys like Hoop enter these games to feast on the few fish left, but it’s terrible for the eco-system of DFS. One of my $1 FD 50/50s had 4 RotoGrinders “Pros” in it. I play around 10 $1 50s a night and there were 3 of them in EVERY single one. Obviously, it’s up to the sites to make a change, implement an accurate ranking system and allow players to play within their weight class for cash games. The money will dry up, fewer new players are coming back to the site to play. It’s obvious based on the same usernames being in every single low level cash game. I’m seeing guys like Birdwings start to chase $1 50s. They know this won’t last long and are smartly trying to suck up every last bit of profit they can before there’s nothing left. Greed always wins out over correct decision making to maintain sustainability.

  • hendog

    • 930

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    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @superstars92 said...

    Yea let’s just go back on topic with the original discussion. I guess this is why I normally don’t talk about politics lol.

    Anyways, you kind of are making my point for me with these statements directly from you. Let me just quote a few, and then I’m not going to talk about this anymore since it’s way too off topic. However, I will relate it to DFS.

    1. “I apologize if my post seemed attacking. It’s just that I get a little upset when I saw someone talk about how their wife has to spend $55k on drugs for their wife has cancer and you repeatedly say things like “It’s just the way it is”, “that is the nature of the beast”, etc. Oh well, that’s just capitalism for you, tough luck your wife and you are living in the United States. But hey, if you were living in Europe or any other 1st world country, you wouldnt be having this problem. How exactly is that helping this guy’s wife?”

    Well if you re-read my post, first of all, I said I feel sorry for the situation he was going through, and I wished him and his wife the best of luck. I even said if I had enough money or influence one day, I would try to change the system to be more like what Jimmy Wales is doing with Wikipedia (non-profit, just covering his costs). I’m not sure if you read that or not. Anyways, I can’t help the guy’s wife. None of us can. I was just pointing out that if it costs him 55k to pay for medical bills, that’s just the system. It’s just like FD/DK. If they aren’t going to regulate the pros entering low level tourneys, that’s just the system. Just like pros who won’t reduce their profits by not playing in low level stakes, these companies are not going to reduce the costs without laws and regulation because they want to maximize profits. I don’t see what is there to not understand here. I’m not making fun of his wife or even saying the system is right. I’m just stating facts. The US can change the system, sure, but I don’t have any influence to change that system. Just like in DFS, the people with the influence are the pros, and they do not want to change the system.

    2. “These companies also are not doing the right thing. These drug companies have plants in Canada and other countries where they produce and sell these drugs at a fraction of the cost. Or the countries, like Canada, have laws that set maximum prices that drugs can cost, sometimes up to 55% LESS than prices in the US. US citizens do not have access to these markets, legally.”

    Your last statement perfectly summarizes my entire point. They don’t have access to these markets legally, so why should health and drug companies reduce the costs in the US? They are offering a completely fair price in terms of the current supply and demand. They are offering a competitive price in terms of the supply and demand, relative to other companies. That’s fair and competitive. Again, it’s fair and competitive for the company, not for the consumer. I stated that though, and you even quoted me on it. Unless laws and regulations are passed (similar to DFS like if DK/FD could regulate this low entry issue better or do things like reduce max entires), there is absolutely nothing wrong with what these companies are doing in terms of economics. Why do you think the drug prices in Canada are less? It’s because there are laws and regulations. The prices in Canada reflect the fair and competitiveness of the market in Canada….just like the higher prices in the US reflect the fair and competitive market in the US.

    3. “Health and prescription drugs can’t be in a capitalist market precisely because they WONT do the right thing, morally. You are saying they are doing the right thing according to the rules of the capitalist market and “that is just the nature of the beast”. How is that helping anybody but the companies and shareholders? When you say “that is just the nature of the beast” it sounds like you are just accepting the way things are and that nothing can be done to change things, which is 100% false. We could have a system that is completely different and better.”

    I’m not a politician. If I were (or had money or influence), I actually would change the laws somewhat more to what you are arguing for. I did mention that though in my post, so we actually both believe in the same philosophies. It’s just that I’m saying that’s the way things are now, so just deal with that. Things now in DFS are pros can max enter, they can enter any stake, so rather than complain, we should take the time to get better and win off of these pros (or do other things like avoid these pros, not play cash games, etc. – things we can currently control).

    Anyways, you seem pretty passionate about this topic. I guess that’s good. I don’t really have a strong view either way, but like I said, if I were to become super influential or rich one day, I actually would probably lobby to have a system more in line with what you are saying (not as extreme as say Sweden, but less free-market than current US). Ok let’s go back to the original discussion =). I hate talking about econ lol. I’ll rather talk about math/science haha.

    I think the reason for the disconnect between you and thedude404 is that there are two issues being conflated: “what is the morality of certain actions within the rules of the system” and “what should the rules be”. You answered the first question emphatically by arguing that within the rules, the actions of DFS sharks/health care companies makes sense (which I agree with on both counts). But rather than taking the discussion to “in that case, should the rules be changed?” as thedude404 would like to do, you shrugged your shoulders and went straight to “that’s just the way it is”. Which is somewhat dismissive of people who were just trying to discuss the second question (what the rule should be) to begin with.

    Personally, I think that healthcare needs a complete overhaul, the more socialist the better. Whereas for DFS sharks, I think maybe tweaks are necessary but there’s no obvious solution like there is for healthcare. I’m happy with the status quo, but not because of any “the rules are the rules” inanity but because I don’t see an appealing alternative.

  • KindGuy

    @hendog said...

    Personally, I think that healthcare needs a complete overhaul, the more socialist the better. Whereas for DFS sharks, I think maybe tweaks are necessary but there’s no obvious solution like there is for healthcare. I’m happy with the status quo, but not because of any “the rules are the rules” inanity but because I don’t see an appealing alternative.

    I love you.

  • gausman7

    if the lottery teaches us anything, it’s that people will gamble even when it’s a losing proposition. DFS will continue to exist, just like games in the casino with a 20% win rate (e.g. Caribbean Stud etc). Lack of players will not be what brings DFS down, it will likely be one of three things: legislation, fear of legislation that prevents IPO, fear of legislation that prevents investors.

    Like every company, they are dumping money into the front end to grow the products through ads. Once the customer base is there, they can start to make annual profit. I think we are giving the gambling population way to much credit in assuming they will just walk away because they aren’t making money.

    Fantasy sports is a huge market. This is an off-shoot of year-long fantasy sports. It allows people to scratch their itch and in most states, gives players the closest thing to sports betting that is legal and available.

    As a player, I choose options where I entering a single entry and so is everyone else. To complain about the big players playing their single entry against your single entry in games that have 100 participants is just not a valuable complaint. The companies have given us options such as single entry tourneys, single entry double-ups, leagues, “create a contest” where you can invite who you want.

    You can’t make everyone happy, but I give the companies a pat on the back for not catering to the Mass enterers as much as they could.

  • kasper

    I can’t believe I’m even reading this thread.

    Wondering if the OP is a millennial…

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @gausman7 said...

    I think we are giving the gambling population way to much credit in assuming they will just walk away because they aren’t making money.

    Very good part of this post. I know so many people who frequent our local casino over and over, yet lose consistently. Yet they keep on going. It’s entertainment to them. Just like all of the sport nuts who find DFS entertaining.

    I keep hearing how DFS is stagnant and the new people are going away, yet my H2H’s keep getting filled daily by names I don’t recognize.

  • sochoice

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2017 FanDuel WFFC Champion

    Why not? Get better yourself and beat them. Otherwise, don’t take the chance of matching up against them if you are so concerned. Sounds like you don’t want to be in contests with anyone “good” or a “pro”. If that is the case, stop playing DFS.

  • travs424

    @bhdevault said...

    I keep hearing how DFS is stagnant and the new people are going away, yet my H2H’s keep getting filled daily by names I don’t recognize

    2011 twice as many dfs sites then 2017.

    not sure if you can see the forest cause all of those trees are in the way

  • ASalvaro

    @elementasrat said...

    Can someone PLEASE define what a “Pro” is? I freaking hate using that word but everyone in the DFS industry loves to use it.

    This is gambling. I happen to believe that the idea that someone can be a professional at this is straight BS.

    A professional in DFS is a guy who can afford 150 entries a contest…That simple

  • AlexSonty

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    @TheGodFather75 said...

    Interesting thread….. I’ve proposed to DK and Fanduel in the past that they should limit the amount of entries to both tourneys and cash games. If the (so called) pros could only enter 200 cash games entries, chances are they would pick they’re entry limits more carefully. It would be similar to online poker…. you would strive to play the higher limits to make more money and prove your skills by advancing to higher buy ins and only drop down in buy ins if you needed to grind your bankroll. It would create a healthier DFS system too. Can’t see why DK and FD don’t do this other than they need the short term profits…..

    Not sure what the limit is on DK, but on FD, there is a limit to how many games of, I believe, $5 or fewer one can play. The problem is that the limit is far too high.

    ‘Sure, it sucks, but how can it be solved, it can’t, so fuggedaboudit’ is pretty always a stupid rebuttal to a claim. I can understand the sites not wanting to lower this limit because volume equals rake, but I have to assume that people would play those same dollars elsewhere on the slate. Like, someone playing 75 cash games at $1, $2, and $5 ($600), when hit with a 75-game cap at $5 or lower would just shift spend $200 on $1-$5 games and play 40 $10 games.

    I’m not saying this ought to happen, but to say that there is no way to significantly improve the experience for the less experienced and/or recreational player regarding this issue is bullshit.

  • depalma13

    The first thing you have to realize is you are not playing a person when you play these the “pros”. You are playing a sophisticated computer algorithm. Your knowledge of sports is meaningless. A recreational player has no shot at beating the algorithms in the long run. You will eventually lose all of your money. The sites will take their cut and the people using the algorithms will take the rest.

    If you are a recreational player, don’t play cash. The risk is not worth the reward.

  • Njsum1

    @depalma13 said...

    The first thing you have to realize is you are not playing a person when you play these the “pros”. You are playing a sophisticated computer algorithm. Your knowledge of sports is meaningless. A recreational player has no shot at beating the algorithms in the long run. You will eventually lose all of your money. The sites will take their cut and the people using the algorithms will take the rest.

    If you are a recreational player, don’t play cash. The risk is not worth the reward.

    While I agree that a recreational player has little chance of beating a pro in the long run, and would be better served playing GPP’s, I do however, take exception to the idea that your not playing against a person but a “sophisticated computer algorithm.” You make it sound like computers all of a sudden became self aware and with this newfound consciousness created an unbeatable system that can with 100% accuracy predict individual athletic performance. An algorithm is just a program written by a human being, which for this purpose, is designed to take whatever variables the programmer think factor into predicting athletic performance, and then spits out the best per dollar plays. However, your not taking into account the fact that the algorithm, which was written by a person, could very easily be flawed, outdated, fail to account for certain variables, etc.

    To sum it up, i would argue that not being able to beat a pros algo regularly has little to do with the fact that youre going up against a computer, because your actually competing against a person, yet more do with the fact that the recreational player simply does not have the time to devote to DFS. I believe that a sharp player without an algo, that has the time research, could easily beat an algo.

  • joonyari22

    • Blogger of the Month

    i knew this thread had legs when i first saw it, proud of you guys. WELP.

  • depalma13

    @Njsum1 said...

    I believe that a sharp player without an algo, that has the time research, could easily beat an algo.

    I didn’t mean you were just playing a computer when you play the pros. I see how my post could have come across like that. What I meant is the pro is using sophisticated algos and is savvy enough to make the adjustments where necessary.

    The recreational guy wanting to have a little fun playing a $1 50/50 who is scooped by this pro is a lamb going to slaughter.

  • EadesScience

    @jdtrey said...

    SaahilSud and other top players do actually avoid this type of behavior and have called on the other “pros” to do the same.

    Yes Sir!

  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

    • 826

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    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

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    The “expert player” designations are absolutely a joke. You can’t pin that on the sites rather the poorly conceived DFS regulations. Would be nice if FD/DK could improve upon them, but doubtful we would see state regulators give them the flexibility to change it.

  • Cpjttogether

    We all get paid if we win. So in my opinion what defines being a pro is if you win or not. I understand the argument from both sides. Higher win % in the lower limit games helps combat the rake for them. In the long run they are just hurting themselves, by damaging the game they are good at. There will be nobody left playing except them at some point. keep playing in my $1 50/50 and posting your 10k h2hs. Maybe when granny gives me my annuity, i will hire your rival. play his line up against you and scalp you like robin hood.

  • anilprao88

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    @depalma13 said...

    The first thing you have to realize is you are not playing a person when you play these the “pros”. You are playing a sophisticated computer algorithm.

    This is hilarious.

  • BmoreClutch

    @db730 said...

    The “expert player” designations are absolutely a joke. You can’t pin that on the sites rather the poorly conceived DFS regulations. Would be nice if FD/DK could improve upon them, but doubtful we would see state regulators give them the flexibility to change it.

    Why can’t you pin it on FD/DK? Yahoo implemented their own player designations, aren’t they under the same regulations?

  • KindGuy

    @anilprao88 said...

    This is hilarious.

    Exactly. I’m not sure where this myth came from that the “pros” are using complicated, self written code to make their lineups. Sure, maybe some of them are. But I’m pretty confident that the majority of them are using FantasyCruncher,importing their own projections and then making 150 lineups. It really isnt that hard.

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