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  • Landa501

    I don’t understand this. Why do I see names like BritDevine and Hoop in $1 50/50’s to win 80 cents?

  • hendog

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    Actually, my DFS algorithm did become self-aware. It sucked. I had to unplug from the internet and wipe my PC to get it under control. Now I come up with lineups by hand. So far, less successful, but beats the headache of potty-training a baby algorithm.

  • travs424

    @hendog said...

    Actually, my DFS algorithm did become self-aware

    i hate when that happens

  • dude_abides7

    @headChopper said...

    Creating games that separate beginners from veterans is up to the sites.

    Come on Chop…you know just as well as anyone that those beginner contests aren’t available for very long if you play consistently. To say this is an option for someone who wants simply to play low stakes with pros is a joke.

    If I head down to casino and play my $1/$2 limit Holdem, I don’t have to worry about Johnny Chan sitting next to me. I think that is all these guys are trying to say.

    Personally, I think this falls to the sites to prevent. If money is to be had, people are going to have it. We aren’t talking about a bunch of Peace Corp volunteers here. We are talking about professional gamblers. Of course they are going to go after every penny they can.

  • dude_abides7

    @SelfCharmer said...

    My only thought is, who the hell are you to be able to decide how much money another person makes.

    Who the hell am I? I’m the guy who would like to see DFS stick around and not have the ecosystem become so toxic that it becomes unsustainable and the industry collapses and we all lose….nice to meet you.

  • dude_abides7

    @Heterodox said...

    And I don’t know what you do for a living, or what your skill set is, but the idea that a regular guy who might work 50 hours a week, who has no real skills in programming, predictive modeling, statistical analysis, etc., is even capable of getting good enough to compete with the best DFS players is unrealistic, if not just plain silly. At the very least, you’re expecting them to make a sacrifice few would make for a hobby. Which is fine in general, no one needs to play DFS, no one is entitled to anything, but if you’re banking on something like that to extend the lifespan of the game, you will be disappointed.

    I mean…this says it all. No one wants to understand this^^^^^

    They just want to assume that everyone that has an issue or a complaint is simply just a loser who feels like they are entitled to win. There is a bigger issue at play here and your post absolutely nailed it. +1

  • dude_abides7

    @superstars92 said...

    All I was saying is maybe instead of complaining about this, build better models (perhaps learn statistical analysis, programming, etc. to help).

    Yeah, because I am sure this is what DFS founders had in mind when they created this thing. “It should be all about computers and algos.” Right.

  • dude_abides7

    @depalma13 said...

    he first thing you have to realize is you are not playing a person when you play these the “pros”. You are playing a sophisticated computer algorithm. Your knowledge of sports is meaningless. A recreational player has no shot at beating the algorithms in the long run. You will eventually lose all of your money. The sites will take their cut and the people using the algorithms will take the rest.

    If you are a recreational player, don’t play cash. The risk is not worth the reward.

    I wonder if the sites would agree with your “casuals shouldn’t play cash”? If the site operators had a brain cell to share between the lot of them, then they would get busy understanding more and more players are getting hip to this and it will end badly for DFS.

    This isn’t going to change unless the sites change it. They don’t seem interested in doing that. They understand, like some here understand, that DFS is a dying whale. It just takes a while for such a large beast to float to the surface. Meanwhile, everyone is just trying to get their fill before the thing washes ashore and rots in the sun.

  • travs424

    @dude_abides7 said...

    Who the hell am I? I’m the guy who would like to see DFS stick around and not have the ecosystem become so toxic that it becomes unsustainable and the industry collapses and we all lose….nice to meet you

    Dude, all posts very well said.

    The part that I never understand is that the guys with the most to lose the ones that get paid to write columns, work for sites, and are successful at dfs dont consider this a possibility. most of them are under the build a better lineup theory. But they will also say, in the long run a player will lose vs a pro with a sophisticated computer algorithm.

    all the sites are going away but fd and dk, slowly 1 by 1 they are dropping out. and these guys keep saying it is the sites problem to regulate it. why would the sites change it pretty soon there will be only 2 and then they can do what ever they want because you will have no other options

  • Yombo

    @superstars92 said...

    I don’t quite understand what you are trying to argue here. Are you saying because pros know how to build complex models, understand programming, and statistical analysis, etc. then there’s no way for any regular people to compete with them? I mean if that’s the case then you should know DFS is -EV do just do it for fun and don’t expect to win.

    All I was saying is maybe instead of complaining about this, build better models (perhaps learn statistical analysis, programming, etc. to help).

    Also it isn’t even true what you are saying. I don’t use any programming or models in my creation of lineups. I just come home from work at like 6-6:30 and then just glance at some relevant statistics, matchups, etc. (but don’t like combine them into an all-in-one model) and then look at relevant news/fundamental factors and put together like 10-20 lineups a night by hand and enter them into GPPs and 1 into my cash games. It has worked out well so far so clearly it can work, and I hope it works well for all of you guys too. You just have to keep learning from your mistakes and work on getting better given the current environment rather than just complain and give excuses when you lose. If the OP was winning a lot, do you think he would care to post? So it is quite hypocritical in that sense.

    I mean this is a job for some people. They want to maximize the total amount they want to make. It isn’t fair to punish them so you as an amateur can make more for yourself. Trust me, I would make more of pros didn’t enter the low stakes, but yet I’m not going to complain because I can totally see where they are coming from when they enter 1 dollar tourneys.

    It’s like this in society. Why don’t you guys just ask why all pharma companies just let all their drugs be worth like 1 dollar so everyone can afford it and more people can be cured of diseases. I mean that one even has social impact too. Yet they don’t. They price their drugs to a fair, competitive market price where it will maximize the PNL of the company using supply vs. demand. It’s just the way it is. However if you are going to complain don’t do it simply because you are losing and want some easier competition.

    horrendous description of big pharma actually, a lot of those are prices being set by pharma as they lobby effectively in the political sphere and there is no way to check them at pretty much any level

    they have patents that last so long that no one can effectively put up an alternative. truly a horrendous take – they are setting drugs to prices to maximize profit.

    if that was your dfs example, then i guess you have a good one even as no one can check dfs players like no one can check big pharma because it isnt in their interest to do so. But to act like they’re putting up fair market, competitive prices is truly a twisting of the situation my stomach has a hard time handling

  • savedatmoneyquan

    @hendog said...

    Actually, my DFS algorithm did become self-aware. It sucked. I had to unplug from the internet and wipe my PC to get it under control. Now I come up with lineups by hand. So far, less successful, but beats the headache of potty-training a baby algorithm.

    Looool

  • Cpjttogether

    this is a really good thread. Its cool that roto grinders gives players from all different success and experience ranges a place to discuss dfs. Lots of different opinions seem right at the same time. I know from my experience that its discouraging when you have a low win % and are passionate about the game. I like competing against the best players. I just wish i was a better player and had more money. As for people busting hoop and bird wings balls for playing for $1 or peter gibbons scooping up my $2 h2hs. Those guys also have the balls to post 10 and 5 k h2h and as soon as i learn how to win I’m gonna get all my $1 back.

  • artvandalay12

    @gje627 said...

    I’m always confused by what constitutes a pro and what constitutes an amateur. Is there really a difference? Should DK and FD just completely segregate the two types of players, arbitrarily defined by their own “Community Guidelines” as pros and and amateurs?

    Somehow, I don’t think this would work.

    Additionally, using the same rationale as the OP, if “pros” can not/ should not play certain low-cost or low-payout contests, should amateurs be prohibited from playing high-entry fee or high-payout contests.

    This would only be “fair” to the pros, right?

    Imagine, if DK prohibited amateurs from playing the NFL milly maker…. I’m almost certain there would outrage by the same people that constantly and incessantly complain about the pros in the RG forums.

    Regarding @BritDevine, your criticism is completely unfair and wholly unwarranted

    @BritDevine has freely, generously, and without hesitation given us all useful, actionable, and insightful DFS advice on a daily basis for years (as have other RG staff). I imagine you, as well as almost all frequent users of RG have taken advantage of his advice to win at least a nice chunk of change on more than one occasion. I’m actually surprised RG staff spends as much time as they do trying to help other DFS players, rather than simply keeping their “knowledge” to themselves and beating us all more thoroughly on a daily basis.

    What’s the old saying…. “Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.”

    I disagree. I’m not so sure these guys follow their own advice. The stuff they through out there, I do already (for the most part). I your a sports/fantasy fan you probably know these things. But then they go and use the computer programs to actually put the LU’s in. You are playing an algorithm not a person. I listened to an interview with a shark (dont remember which one) and this dude actually said he is not even a fan. AND he doesnt even watch the games. He just does he algorithm and wins. Pathetic. Doesnt watch the games lmao? It’s very frustrating because my knowledge of any particular sport is probably far superior, yet I cant beat him in fantasy because his computer knowledge is far superior to mine. JMO

  • artvandalay12

    @CUTiger81 said...

    They have beginner games if you’re new to this.

    Dont insult peoples intelligence with the beginner contests lol. That lasts for what? 50 games or so then your not a beginner anymore. Thats a joke and its deceiving.

  • Shipmymoney

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    @artvandalay12 said...

    I disagree. I’m not so sure these guys follow their own advice. The stuff they through out there, I do already (for the most part). I your a sports/fantasy fan you probably know these things. But then they go and use the computer programs to actually put the LU’s in. You are playing an algorithm not a person. I listened to an interview with a shark (dont remember which one) and this dude actually said he is not even a fan. AND he doesnt even watch the games. He just does he algorithm and wins. Pathetic. Doesnt watch the games lmao? It’s very frustrating because my knowledge of any particular sport is probably far superior, yet I cant beat him in fantasy because his computer knowledge is far superior to mine. JMO

    I am one of the most technologically incompetent people that I know. Being profitable without the ability to create your own models is doable. It just takes a lot of work as does pretty much anything worth doing.

  • artvandalay12

    @gje627 said...

    Well said.

    Absolutely the single-best point made in this entire thread.

    Of course it is. because hes RG contributor lmao. Unfortunately, the pros are in every contest, for the most part. So telling the OP to only enter tournaments probably wont help. There arent any pros in the tournaments? People just get frustrated when you are playing people that have computer programs to pick there LU’s. You cant beat that. And dont tell me they dont. If you are knowledgable with computer programs, you can be successful in DFS, period. And it shouldnt be like that. It should be if you are knowledgable in sports.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @artvandalay12 said...

    If you are knowledgable with computer programs, you can be successful in DFS, period. And it shouldnt be like that. It should be if you are knowledgable in sports.

    Yes, but that is literally an impossible thing to fix.

    Ironically, I believe a solution to the problem of algorithms is out there in the form of leagues. Unfortunately, there are two things that prevent it from being widely used.

    First, nobody wants to be the one to manage and promote a league that could be made up of hundreds of people that could strictly exclude anyone who is considered a pro (likely based on a daily entry volume).

    Secondly, the prize pools wouldn’t be attractive enough, because the reality is people are greedy and don’t really care about pros and algorithms as much as they care about the ability to turn $1 or $2 into $300+.

  • madchuck

    You guys have no idea how algorithm’s and scripts work. What it mainly does is makes a ton of lineups faster. Rotogrinders has a lineup builder for free. You can make 500 lineups in 30 seconds. Go ahead and try it.

  • tamparoor

    Like other posters say it should be about how smart you are at sports and not how good you’re algorithms programs is.

  • Baldeagle46

    I agree. I’ve spent probably $10,000 this NBA season and Havnt collected one red cent. I have no knowledge of setting up a sophisticated program. No late swaps, dead money, I made my last deposit with draft kings. Imo, I’m better off playing with the books, buying a lottery ticket. I’ve had better luck with scratch offs! Ha.. Oh by the way what got me hooked I got lucky and guessed a winning Nascar lineup that paid 2k 1st place. Turned around the next week or so and won 2, 500 by guessing and winning a baseball lineup, pure ass luck guys. When i do have a Nba lineup over 300, 338 my best I won 6$$.. Ha.. Gl guys.. I think I made 5 entries in that 8$ contest on DK nba tonight, a few single entries. If I lose this minnow is dead. Tired of feeding these dam sharks! Gl men, I wish I would’ve found y’all sooner I may done better or bailed sooner.. Jay, baldeagle46

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    I’m well aware of what algorithms/lineup builders do. The point I was making is that your average Joe is much more likely to create their own lineups without the use of a lineup builder/algorithm than someone entering $500+ each night.

    Also, algorithm’s don’t simply make a ton of lineups faster. They make the best possible combinations of lineups based on the information available. They are basically solving hundreds of math equations without making a single error (in terms of what the data tells them). So if you believe they do the work a person can do (just faster), then I will again disagree with you.

    Finally, I know RG has a lineup builder for free. I don’t use it because for me it isn’t enjoyable to have a computer make my lineups. I’ve tried it, it does amazing work, but it takes away part of my enjoyment as a player. I’m aware of the disadvantage it puts me at, but that’s why I feel leagues are a way to create an even playing field if someone (likely a site like RG or another DFS community) took the time to manage one in a way that removed players that are more likely to use algorithm’s than others. No, I don’t expect them to because it would literally be a nightmare to manage and would eat up far more time than it is worth.

  • Njsum1

    Algorithm, schmalgorithm. I love all this talk about how an algorithm for DFS gives those that use them such a huge advantage. I think some people don’t understand the difference between an algorithm and a script. Scripts give MME players an advantage over other MME players who don’t use them because it allows them to create, enter, and edit more lineups faster. However, scripts are available to everyone, they’re even free on this site, so advantage negated. If you want to mass multi enter you should be using scripts. If you don’t want to learn how to script, simply don’t mass multi enter, as it will be difficult to create, enter, then adjust 150 lineups by hand to account for late breaking news. I only run between 1 and 10 lineups per night, and have no need for a script. Plus I enjoy making each lineup.

    Ok, I digress, just because someone has an algorithim for DFS doesn’t mean it’s any good. The algo could be crap. The algo could be flawed. For example, it could overemphasize certain variables, while underemphasizing more important ones. Understand the algo is written by a human, and if the human who wrote it sucks at DFS, their algo will suck as well. Top players who wrote their own algos, would crush with or without the algo, just because they are accounting for the right variables when predicting athletic performance, the algo can just do it faster. The algo can do in seconds what a pen and paper guy can do in a hour. Yet if you have an hour, and anyone who takes DFS seriously should, not having an algo doesn’t put you at a disadvantage. JMHO.

  • Swish65

    @fathalpert said...

    It sounds like some users don’t feel the experience badges are a good indicator of actual experience/success. And it also sounds like some users don’t feel single entry / 3-entry max limits do enough. For tournaments, I actually do feel this evens the playing field significantly.

    For cash games, would a possible solution be pairing H2H games versus opponents with similar lifetime winnings in that sport? For example, let’s say I’ve made a total of $300 profit over my lifetime playing NBA H2Hs on the site. Would it be fair if I was paired with an opponent who similarly has made around $300 profit over their lifetime playing NBA H2H games? Similarly if I’m a losing playing and down -$200, pair me with a player also down around -$200?

    This is the best solution to this problem I have seen to date! It is the equivalent to the use of “weightclasses” or “divisions” in other sports or high school and collegiate sports! I would think DFS regulators would have little objection to this, and in fact champion its use to level playing fields for all DFS players. And, hey, if you’re a little guy and you want to go up against the “big boys”, at high stakes, go for it………..but not the other way around! I would also see not reason to limit it to cash contests only, however, entry limits do, in themselves, tend make things fairer for everyone.
    Again, great idea!

  • dude_abides7

    @Swish65 said...

    This is the best solution to this problem I have seen to date! It is the equivalent to the use of “weightclasses” or “divisions” in other sports or high school and collegiate sports! I would think DFS regulators would have little objection to this, and in fact champion its use to level playing fields for all DFS players. And, hey, if you’re a little guy and you want to go up against the “big boys”, at high stakes, go for it………..but not the other way around! I would also see not reason to limit it to cash contests only, however, entry limits do, in themselves, tend make things fairer for everyone.
    Again, great idea!

    It is a great idea….which is probably why the sites won’t adopt it.

  • SA16

    @Swish65 said...

    This is the best solution to this problem I have seen to date! It is the equivalent to the use of “weightclasses” or “divisions” in other sports or high school and collegiate sports! I would think DFS regulators would have little objection to this, and in fact champion its use to level playing fields for all DFS players. And, hey, if you’re a little guy and you want to go up against the “big boys”, at high stakes, go for it………..but not the other way around! I would also see not reason to limit it to cash contests only, however, entry limits do, in themselves, tend make things fairer for everyone.
    Again, great idea!

    This will just kill all the games because it’ll remove all the high volume guys edge by forcing them to play each other so they’ll stop playing and that’ll basically be the end of the sites.

  • tgowen

    • Blogger of the Month

    @SA16 said...

    This will just kill all the games because it’ll remove all the high volume guys edge by forcing them to play each other so they’ll stop playing and that’ll basically be the end of the sites.

    I’ve always thought that sites could make a system like that work if they simply offered a very limited amount of those type of games.

    For example, offer only one contest per day (maybe a 100 man GPP) at say a $1-$2 entry fee that is only available to individuals who play $10 or less per day. When it fills it fills and better luck getting into it next time. I wouldn’t imagine a game like that would have a huge impact on the overall night’s worth of contests.

    Regardless, with the way things are currently going the sites have little (if any) need to offer something like that. Especially considering the extra work it would take to generate the proper codes into their system.

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