INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • Swish65

    First, just a bit of background. Been playing DFS for just over a year—low dollar—mostly .25 to an occasional $3. My accounts seldom amount to more than $25 in them, but I love DFS and play daily. Hope someday to win a nice GPP, but have never cashed for more than $40. Retired, so not overflowing with money to burn, but not destitute either, so cashing is always nice and that’s basically what my hope is every day. With prizes top heavy in Gpp’s, no matter how much research I seem to do, I can still not get over the hump!
    My frustration in writing this thread was brought about by a contest I was in last night—a ten player league with a $2 entry! Low dollar with a top prize of $9. At the time I entered there were, I believe, maybe four or five other entrants, some with “badges” and a couple not. While following the NBA games and my contest later I realized to my horror (well, not horror, but disappointment) that there were not one, but four top 50 TPOY grinders, and 3 regular Rotogrinders “podcasters” in my lil bitty $2 league! Now, it’s not that I mind losing $2, but rather why are guys like this(not necessarily these particular guys), most of which have thousands of dollars in site accounts, playing in a $2 contest!? I know one of them recently won a HUGE amount of money in a GPP, more than I’ve ever made in my life in one years work! And I don’t begrudge any of them doing that, but do you have to come down to the low dollar levels and clean us “fish” out too!? Winning $9 is a big night for me, most nights! Anyway, enough of the rant. Here is a possible solution.
    With all the technology available, wouldn’t it simply be possible to link player account $$$ levels to contests available to enter?? Just as very elementary examples:

    up to $100, any contest
    $101-$500, no multi entry contest under $3
    $501-$1000 no contest under $5
    $1000 or more no contest under $10

    This would eliminate high dollar players praying on the “fish” who are just trying to survive in their shallow end of the pond, yet doesn’t hinder anyone from playing high dollar contests, or keep “sharks” from continuing winning their huge prizes. Of course the above example is not an actual suggestion of values to be used, only a general format. Badges and shields obviously don’t work. I know others will argue that it will keep prize pools down, but in my above example the top prize was only $9, yet players with thousands of dollars in their accounts were still trying to take that home!
    In almost all sports you have separation of talent levels competing. Divisions in high school and college football, minor league baseball(A,AA,AAA,majors)——why not DFS. Make it fair for everyone, and as your skill level increases, and your bank roll grows, so does the level of competition you’re going against. Or do the “sharks” not want that, and want to get richer any way possible? I hope as somebody who really loves DFS, and truly believe it is skill based, that this isn’t the case, or am I just being naive?

    Love to hear everyones thoughts—-especially the “podcast” grinders out there, who I listen to, and enjoy everyday!

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    The sites give the pros free reign because the top 1% of players pay >60% of the rake (the sites only revenue). They will never be limited.

    The pros enter small dollar contests to go fishing. It improves their odds and doesn’t require any extra effort so they will never stop.

    Eventually the 99% of non-pro players will get crowded out by the sharks and the increasing rake, until only the sharks are left to feed on each other and the system collapses in on itself.

  • bigmike14

    The sharks play low level buy ins so they can afford to play in the $300+ entry contests. It is their insurance policy for them if their gpp lineups in the huge buy in tournaments flop. I myself am not a shark, but I can understand why they do it. Also, for most sharks, this is their full time job. So they take advantage of the “easier money” in order ro keep the winnings rolling in. It also helps them to diversify risk, because cash lines are generally lower in smaller stakes cash games compared to higher stakes.

  • tsteeves

    I agree it’s frustrating having to play against the DFS heavyweights in a $2 entry $9 top prize contest. I would love to see the implementation of software that effectively blocks the above from happening. It would be good for the ecosystem and help new sign-up retention. Unfortunately I don’t see this changing anytime soon. At the end of the day rake is rake. The sites don’t care if the rake in a contest comes from Swish65 or Saahilsud.

  • tooltime

    Swish65 I’m with you. I play the same amount as you and with the same bankroll limits. This issue comes up a lot. I don’t think the sites can stop someone from entering a lower buy-in because they have a big bankroll. This why they made the useless casual player games. Every day I see all the same people in every low buy-in games. This just goes to show that there are not enough new and average players to fill the contests. Soon it will be only the same people playing each other everyday.

  • tsteeves

    @bigmike14 said...

    The sharks play low level buy ins so they can afford to play in the $300+ entry contests. It is their insurance policy for them if their gpp lineups in the huge buy in tournaments flop. I myself am not a shark, but I can understand why they do it. Also, for most sharks, this is their full time job. So they take advantage of the “easier money” in order ro keep the winnings rolling in. It also helps them to diversify risk, because cash lines are generally lower in smaller stakes cash games compared to higher stakes

    I agree with your reasoning as to why they do it, however it’s not a model that will allow the DFS industry to grow and prosper. The onus is on the sites to fix this because as you pointed out this is essentially easy money for the sharps and human nature doesn’t allow us to leave money on the table when it can be in our pockets.

  • tvsfrink

    You can’t use money in account as a metric because you can withdraw most of your money at any time. You’d have to do something like lifetime profit.

  • squirrelpatrol

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      2018 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    Doesn’t FanDuel already restrict this? All accounts are restricted from entering more than 250 lineups (cumulative) on contests $10 and below in any slate . From my experience and observation, most high-volume players use their 250 ($10 and below) lineups on the larger size GPPs and double-ups/multipliers rather than entering smaller-size leagues.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    I’m with you bud! How I got 172.12 last week on my NFL Cash game LU and only cashed in less than half my $1 contests seems absurd, but this is the nature of the beast. Don’t know if it’s Pros going bum hunting or just everyone having good information. Hard to say. That same LU was in the Top 20% percentile (Top 14.5 to be exact) in the 50k Playaction however.

    Could chalk it up to the game evolving or just jump out a window. I don’t know.

  • oilydave

    What are u playing in tonight?

  • tvsfrink

    And what are you wearing while doing so?

  • oilydave

    I’m wearing a tin foil hat for sure….

  • Njsum1

    What needs to improve is educating new players better on what the daily game is by drawing comparisons to season long, not putting in (too many) rules about who can play who. Think about it, year after year people play season long fantasy sports, and for most, year after year it’s a losing endeavor, yet they still come back, put their money down and draft a team. I’d estimate that in my main 12 team league only 2 or 3 teams managed to turn a profit over the course of the last decade or so. So fantasy sports in general, whether it be daily or season long, is not a profitable endeavor for most, yet still millions of people play because they enjoy it.

    In order to retain players, sites need to make players or potential players understand that they’re most likely not going to win, yet they’re gonna love it anyway, as they do their season long leagues. You hear people say here all the time that I had a few friends sign up for daily they lost their $100 in a weekend and said, “never again.” To people who had this happen, I would inquire, “do you play in season long leagues with $2,000 entry fees.” The casual player needs to understand that he or she should treat their foray into the daily game as they would their season long league. You deposit between $100 and $200 and play $10 per weekend. If you see you have a talent for DFS, you can up your ante, if not you’ll only lose a small amount of money as you would your season long league, yet the entertainment you get from the daily game will far exceed that which you get from season long. IMO that’s how you present it to new players, and retain them. There’s a chance you can win, you most likely won’t but you’re gonna love the game.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @Njsum1 said...

    What needs to improve is the experience of playing the daily game, not putting in (too many) rules about who can play who. Think about it, year after year people play season long fantasy sports, and for most, year after year it’s a losing endeavor, yet they still come back, put their money down and draft a team. I’d estimate that in my main 12 team league only 2 or 3 teams managed to turn a profit over the course of the last decade or so. So fantasy sports in general, whether it be daily or season long, is not a profitable endeavor for most, yet still millions of people play because they enjoy it.

    In order to retain players, sites need to make players or potential players understand that they’re most likely not going to win, yet they’re gonna love it anyway, as they do their season long leagues. You hear people say here all the time that I had a few friends sign up for daily they lost their hundred dollars in a weekend and said, “never again.” To people who had this happen, I would inquire, “do you play in season long leagues with $2,000 entry fees.” The casual player needs to understand that he or she should treat their foray into the daily game as they would their season long league. You deposit between $100 and $200 and play $10 per weekend. If you see you have a talent for DFS, you can up your ante, if not you’ll only lose a small amount of money as you would your season long league, yet the entertainment you get from the daily game will far exceed that which you get from season long. IMO that’s how you present it to new players, and retain them. There’s a chance you can win, you most likely won’t but you’re gonna love the game.

    Better yet what I call “Life Bankroll Management”. Set a dollar amount based on % of income and realize that it could be completely gone. Few make livings or even nice part time incomes from this. Most will lose.

    Similar to what I did going to Atlantic City when I was in my 20s. Stop at the Commerce (now TD Bank) ATM at the Expressway rest area 20 miles out and free of charge unlike the casinos charging $10 a pop. Take out a sum of $300-500 and realize it can all be gone. Some of that for Gambling. Some of that for the clubs. Set your sum. Realize it may all be gone and be comfortable with it.

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    Why is it that every thread like this gets trolled by the “build better lineups” or “you should have fun losing” crowd? Every time.

    This guy is the casual player you all are dependent upon to sustain your hobby. He’s telling you why he’s unhappy with the service. And all you can come up with are all the reasons he shouldn’t feel the way he does.

    DFS can’t go on without guys like Swish. The rest of you supposed “dfs crusaders” aught to be a little more sympathetic to his grievances.

  • EadesScience

    @Swish65 said...

    While following the NBA games and my contest later I realized to my horror (well, not horror, but disappointment) that there were not one, but four top 50 TPOY grinders, and 3 regular Rotogrinders “podcasters” in my lil bitty $2 league! Now, it’s not that I mind losing $2, but rather why are guys like this(not necessarily these particular guys), most of which have thousands of dollars in site accounts, playing in a $2 contest!? I know one of them recently won a HUGE amount of money in a GPP, more than I’ve ever made in my life in one years work!

    Nice post and I get it completely. I suppose my question is why would the four top 50 TPOY grinders and the 3 Rotogrinders podcasters wish to compete with each other at this level? It does not sound to me like whales feeding on fish because their was not enough fish (possibly 2?) to go around in this scenario. And, who were the 3 Rotogrinder podcasters? Maybe they could shed some light on their reasoning to play this particular contest?

    Ricky

  • BIF

    @PJGuin23 said...

    How I got 172.12 last week on my NFL Cash game LU and only cashed in less than half my $1 contests seems absurd, but this is the nature of the beast.

    Last week in NFL had nothing to do with sharks, it had to do with all the chalk plays going for 20-30+ points at almost every position besides B Marshall. People who do no research and don’t watch games were hitting 190

  • Njsum1

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    Why is it that every thread like this gets trolled by the “build better lineups” or “you should have fun losing” crowd? Every time.

    This guy is the casual player you all are dependent upon to sustain your hobby. He’s telling you why he’s unhappy with the service. And all you can come up with are all the reasons he shouldn’t feel the way he does.

    DFS can’t go on without guys like Swish. The rest of you supposed “dfs crusaders” aught to be a little more sympathetic to his grievances.

    If you’re referring to my post you’re misunderstanding my intent. I was not addressing the OP concerns directly, or saying he’s unjustified to feel the way he does, I was just giving my opinion on how DFS should be positioned to have better player acquisition and retention, and my reasons for it.

  • Richebee

    Am I the only one who gets sick of seeing posts like these? As a troll myself, I don’t understand what these trolls are attempting to accomplish. The “sharks” they are referencing pick from the same player pool as they do.

  • Swish65

    @tvsfrink said...

    You can’t use money in account as a metric because you can withdraw most of your money at any time. You’d have to do something like lifetime profit.

    The other day I put in a GPP lineup on a site that had “beginner and intermediate” contests, by mistake. When I hit enter the prompt came up that I was ineligible to play because of my experience. That was cool and had absolutely no problem with it. If a site can do that, then they should easily be able to deny access to contests based on a players account status, and nobody knows but the player himself that was denied. Not rocket science here. You’ve got $15,000 dollars in your account and you’re denied accessto a $1.00 entry contest! I doubt sharks are going to withdraw $14,900 to play in a $1 contest, and then put it back in to play others! Would be based on the players account status at the time they try to enter each contest.

  • PJGuin23

    DFS Tax Guru

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    Why is it that every thread like this gets trolled by the “build better lineups” or “you should have fun losing” crowd? Every time.

    This guy is the casual player you all are dependent upon to sustain your hobby. He’s telling you why he’s unhappy with the service. And all you can come up with are all the reasons he shouldn’t feel the way he does.

    DFS can’t go on without guys like Swish. The rest of you supposed “dfs crusaders” aught to be a little more sympathetic to his grievances.

    Unfortunately, DFS is something that has to be viewed as the deposit money can be gone even with best efforts. I get that there could be sustained losses until the big pay day comes but it has to be viewed as such. And it’s definitely at a slower rate than casino tables or the lottery.

    Relative to other things, DFS is still going through growing pains. I’m sure the casino industry did too.

  • DomTwan

    Rake is rake.

    DK and FD are strapped for cash.

    Don’t see any of your recommendations being implemented anytime soon.

  • Rycol19

    One way to play is about 5 minutes before a set of games start check to see the games that are still open. A lot of times the pros haven’t entered them especially the turbos and 2-3 late game GPPs with a $500-$1000 prize.

  • CUTiger81

    Account balance should have nothing to do with it. Someone may have $1,000 in their account and a $400,000 bank roll. Others may have $400 in their account and a $400 bankroll. Just look at the entrants list for leagues before you click on them. If you see a bunch of pros then just wait for another one.

  • Swish65

    @EadesScience said...

    Nice post and I get it completely. I suppose my question is why would the four top 50 TPOY grinders and the 3 Rotogrinders podcasters wish to compete with each other at this level? It does not sound to me like whales feeding on fish because their was not enough fish (possibly 2?) to go around in this scenario. And, who were the 3 Rotogrinder podcasters? Maybe they could shed some light on their reasoning to play this particular contest?

    Ricky

    I believe forum rules prevent the use of specific naming of individuals, ie the podcasters. In actuality I mispoke somewhat in that they are top 50 Grinders, not necessarily TPOY top 50, but very well know podcasters appearing on Grinders live very regularly. As I mentioned in my OP I would love to hear what some of these guys have to say about players of this caliber playing in very low dollar contests.
    Like I said, I love playing DFS, and would be devastated if it were eventually to be lost to legislation, but just wish I could compete daily with players at my level who aren’t “making a living” at it. I have really nothing against someone “making a living” on DFS, but can’t understand why they find it necessary to crush the little guys( I know it’s easy money). I hope as I continue to get better at it and maybe someday supplement my retirement with DFS, but I’d like to think if I ever got there I would play at my skill level, or higher.
    As another note, I’m sure at this $ level these guys were not concerned at all who else was in the contest.

  • britdevine

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    The sites are at a point where they have massive legal bills and are facing pressure to be profitable

    Over time I think you will start to see some limits on the amount of 25 cent -$2 games a person can play a night, the sites need every dollar they can get right now

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