INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • Swish65

    First, just a bit of background. Been playing DFS for just over a year—low dollar—mostly .25 to an occasional $3. My accounts seldom amount to more than $25 in them, but I love DFS and play daily. Hope someday to win a nice GPP, but have never cashed for more than $40. Retired, so not overflowing with money to burn, but not destitute either, so cashing is always nice and that’s basically what my hope is every day. With prizes top heavy in Gpp’s, no matter how much research I seem to do, I can still not get over the hump!
    My frustration in writing this thread was brought about by a contest I was in last night—a ten player league with a $2 entry! Low dollar with a top prize of $9. At the time I entered there were, I believe, maybe four or five other entrants, some with “badges” and a couple not. While following the NBA games and my contest later I realized to my horror (well, not horror, but disappointment) that there were not one, but four top 50 TPOY grinders, and 3 regular Rotogrinders “podcasters” in my lil bitty $2 league! Now, it’s not that I mind losing $2, but rather why are guys like this(not necessarily these particular guys), most of which have thousands of dollars in site accounts, playing in a $2 contest!? I know one of them recently won a HUGE amount of money in a GPP, more than I’ve ever made in my life in one years work! And I don’t begrudge any of them doing that, but do you have to come down to the low dollar levels and clean us “fish” out too!? Winning $9 is a big night for me, most nights! Anyway, enough of the rant. Here is a possible solution.
    With all the technology available, wouldn’t it simply be possible to link player account $$$ levels to contests available to enter?? Just as very elementary examples:

    up to $100, any contest
    $101-$500, no multi entry contest under $3
    $501-$1000 no contest under $5
    $1000 or more no contest under $10

    This would eliminate high dollar players praying on the “fish” who are just trying to survive in their shallow end of the pond, yet doesn’t hinder anyone from playing high dollar contests, or keep “sharks” from continuing winning their huge prizes. Of course the above example is not an actual suggestion of values to be used, only a general format. Badges and shields obviously don’t work. I know others will argue that it will keep prize pools down, but in my above example the top prize was only $9, yet players with thousands of dollars in their accounts were still trying to take that home!
    In almost all sports you have separation of talent levels competing. Divisions in high school and college football, minor league baseball(A,AA,AAA,majors)——why not DFS. Make it fair for everyone, and as your skill level increases, and your bank roll grows, so does the level of competition you’re going against. Or do the “sharks” not want that, and want to get richer any way possible? I hope as somebody who really loves DFS, and truly believe it is skill based, that this isn’t the case, or am I just being naive?

    Love to hear everyones thoughts—-especially the “podcast” grinders out there, who I listen to, and enjoy everyday!

  • Bigkeydet70

    I get the point and I can see why it is a thing that can be a deterrent for us casual players. I myself am constantly trying to improve and learn from the “pro’s”. So I seek out the contest they are in to see how my thought process and lineups compare to theirs. I have taken some losses so far in NFL. But I have also beat some pretty well known players head up and in the 100 man leagues. If they couldn’t compete against us and vice versa i wouldnt be able to do this.

  • Swish65

    @britdevine said...

    The sites are at a point where they have massive legal bills and are facing pressure to be profitable

    Over time I think you will start to see some limits on the amount of 25 cent -$2 games a person can play a night, the sites need every dollar they can get right now

    Thanks, Brit, for responding. I get that DFS is under seige right now, and sites need bucks. Hopefully things will change gradually so that guys like me won’t feel like we’re just giving our money away to the big boys! Hate to see DFS go the way of the dinosaur!
    Good luck to everyone and thanks for all the responses!

  • dude_abides7

    @britdevine said...

    The sites are at a point where they have massive legal bills and are facing pressure to be profitable

    Over time I think you will start to see some limits on the amount of 25 cent -$2 games a person can play a night, the sites need every dollar they can get right now

    So because of the self afflicted wounds these sites levied on themselves, they are going to continually allow the DFS ecosystem to be sullied in a manner that brings on additional ridicule and more eventual regulation……because they are short on cash? Yeah…great business model.

    (By the way, I agree with what you wrote. I just think it is a joke that the sites are STILL so shortsighted. )

  • lineupofpeace

    Fanduel’s solution seems perfect, just limit the number of entries you can put in below a certain buy in level.

    Sharks will use their limit on big GPPs. and not enter the small leagues/double ups. Not sure why DK doesn’t follow suit.

  • Messiah717

    Unfortunately, as some have pointed out the “sharks” or the pros see those contest as low hanging fruit. It only costs them $37.50 to throw 150 entries into a .25 contest. It’s backup and insurance for the larger games they’re playing in. I don’t like it and I think it’s very bad for DFS overall but until DK for example changes or makes a specific rule it’s going to continue. The folks doing this for a living are just after as much money as possible. They’re not going to listen to passionate pleas to leave those smaller contests alone regardless of how nicely you ask them.

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    Don’t enter a .25 league and check the usernames.
    You’ll see some of the top players maxing those as well.

    I get why they do it. They’re no different than anyone else. They are trying to win and maximize profit, and if it’s not against the rules……
    That said, I’ve always said it’s lame, or at the very least it’s short sighted, because it creates threads like this. The optics are horrible and it potentially hurts the long term health of DFS.
    It’s my belief the money flows up. It will get to the Sharks eventually. Let the casuals, smaller bankrolls, newer players, whatever, battle it out…Let them feel good get some wins, and people will move up. I’d imagine most of those players would play higher stakes if their bankroll would support it.

    Most players aren’t going to think on that macro level. They are trying to squeeze every penny they can while they can. It’s a complete failure on the sites part because the onus is on them to create policy that continues a steady and healthy growth of their product.

    *Edit – I was speaking more of the smaller leagues and cash games.
    The larger GPP’s are a more complicated discussion, because to get prize pools that large in the quarter arcade you need bigger bankrolls mass entering, so there is more of a symbiotic relationship in those contests. I think a casual player wants those larger prize pools, so it could be argued in these instances it may be a necessary evil…Like I said, more complicated.

  • jgrot22

    If you cant beat them…… Join them.. i mean that is what KD did right? lol but in all seriousness how do you expect to get better at DFS if your not competing against the best? Yes some players have advantage cause they have more money but all that simply means is you should either put more money in or continue what your doing in building a bankroll cause me and you are in the same boat., ive been playing these small $0.25 -$3 tourneys and have average success in them. As long as you keep up with the content Rotogrinders provides you… you shouldnt have a problem competing, the only thing setting us back is bankroll.

  • dude_abides7

    @Messiah717 said...

    The folks doing this for a living are just after as much money as possible. They’re not going to listen to passionate pleas to leave those smaller contests alone regardless of how nicely you ask them.

    It’s not their responsibility to listen to anyone. It’s the site’s responsibility and they have failed in their charge since day 1. So now the govt thinks it’s their responsibility and we all suffer.

    Just remember who is the blame here. It’s not the sharks or the tinfoil hat people or Deadspin or anyone on this board. The blame is squarely placed on the brass at FD and DK.

  • monaco712

    I just had a conversation with DraftKings regarding this topic. I told them I would not play cards with a card shark and I do not wish to play DFS with a DFS shark. Like prior posts mentioned I don’t think this will be changing anytime soon. I recommended they at least post players records as they do on fantasy Aces it is only fair to know who we are playing against. The badges are useless as was mentioned. Playing the Lesser trafficked sites may help you avoid some of the sharks. As a premium member on rotogrinders I thought this would help me keep Pace with the sharks but it has not been the case. I have actually started playing on a Sportsbook call 5dimes playing straight up bets. I do not have to worry about playing against sharks, the handicapping is just as interesting and entertaining, you can bet as little as $1, and they offer a huge variety of betting options. After playing DFS for 2 years, doing tons of research from many different venues I never cashing out a profit has soured me on the industry even though I still enjoy it I will just not sink that much money into it and not have any expectations.

  • Messiah717

    I agree with you completely. It’s not the fault of the people doing this for a living and cleaning up every dollar they can get their hands on. It’s the fault of the companies who completely catered a system to these pros and in a short period of time disenfranchised more and more players.

  • hendry

    @britdevine said...

    The sites are at a point where they have massive legal bills and are facing pressure to be profitable

    Over time I think you will start to see some limits on the amount of 25 cent -$2 games a person can play a night, the sites need every dollar they can get right now

    DK already limits $1 and $2 games to 50 a slate. OP – Try entering closer to gametime. I think you’ll find that many high volume players have already maxed out their 50.

  • tonytone1908

    @hendry said...

    DK already limits $1 and $2 games to 50 a slate. OP – Try entering closer to gametime. I think you’ll find that many high volume players have already maxed out their 50.

    That’s a hell of an idea I’ve never thought of. I’ll have to try that. On FD you could do those last minute mini shots and mini slams that are going to possibly have overlay as it is.

  • SelfCharmer

    Game Selection is the most underrated skill for new players or players trying to climb out of the micros.
    If you want to play H2H, choose your opponents wisely, it doesn’t take that much time and will increase your winnings much more than you ever think it would.
    If you want to play GPPs, play GPPs with a flatter payout structure, so if you do cash – you are likely going to make more money, then going for the $1m payday which is an extremely long shot.
    Enter Double Ups and other Cash variants closer to the slate lock, or when it is almost full – check the players, if it is reg infested, move on, there will be other spots.

    Personally, I like to play the best players in the smallest H2Hs I can, this way I can easily analyse their cash LU and see what they do differently to me.

    Obviously this is not the solution for the ecosystem, but you have to work with what you can, and at the moment the high volume players can make an extra 5 figure sum a yr by just clicking Register on all micro games – I know i would as well.

  • xplorin16

    Wonder if the sharks get mad when a fish binks a gpp? If you are having success playing only low stakes, low entry contest than you should make the jump to larger contest. You will find lower cashing points. Play some satellites, play the larger tournies. I was low stakes for a while until i took the leap into playing some of the bigger gpps, 25$, 100$ and the occasional 300$ gpp. Im not here to troll, but how do you think these guys built their br? They play to win, that includes grinding out 1$, 2$, 5$ 3 man 10man etc.

  • vkzfounder

    Interesting discussion. What would be the impact if the sites increased the player roster limit across the board while maintaining the max entry levels? Instead of 8/9 man rosters you’d have to pick 12-20 players.

  • xplorin16

    You have control over who you play. Dont enter contest so early that you dont see who all you will play against. Sharks wait to do this to find new players, or fish. You can do this also. When im looking at 3 man contest and i see saahil or hoop or chipotle i choose not to enter. I have no problem with those guys scooping small entries and i have no problem avoiding them.

  • osuryanf

    @britdevine said...

    The sites are at a point where they have massive legal bills and are facing pressure to be profitable

    Over time I think you will start to see some limits on the amount of 25 cent -$2 games a person can play a night, the sites need every dollar they can get right now

    yep, this x100.

  • bighop04

    This is super unrealistic and just isn’t how anything works anywhere. You are basically wanting sharks to eat sharks, they eat fish.

    I also don’t think there is any sort of insurance by entering lower buy in formats for them, the moneylines to cash are usually very close to each other whether it is a 1$ gpp or a 300$ gpp. They are just entering the lower buy in games to have more of their bankroll at stake.

  • yeahthisiscuddy

    @britdevine said...

    The sites are at a point where they have massive legal bills and are facing pressure to be profitable

    Over time I think you will start to see some limits on the amount of 25 cent -$2 games a person can play a night, the sites need every dollar they can get right now

    When will they ever not need “every dollar they can get?” The idea of entry limits only came up after the first round of scandals (Ethan-gate, I think. It’s hard to remember all of them at this point). So I reject this argument on its face.

    The truth is the sites have been in cahoots with the big time power users since the beginning. Here’s a video from early 2015: https://youtu.be/IgVBEm5Gcz4

    The apologists will say this doesn’t matter, but the sites have never looked out for the casual player and never will.

  • Mod518

    Swish, sorry this happened to you. The ecosystem is a problem and many top players have spoken about it. I think the solution would be for the sites to create contests on the average play amount per day for a week or month time period. So if you play less than $50 a day is what I would consider casual. Many others will say that’s too much or not enough. Different DFS players have many different ideas. I think most people would agree the badges is a complete failure created by legislators that dont understand the games. This is the danger that if something doesnt get worked out someone else is going to make the decision about the ecosystem for us that doesnt truly understand the problems.

  • Yacht67

    Why can’t we just do our research. Choose who we want to play (H2H) or which games to enter. Play. Figure out what we did right and wrong. And learn from it. And stop complaining.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @dude_abides7 said...

    So because of the self afflicted wounds these sites levied on themselves, they are going to continually allow the DFS ecosystem to be sullied in a manner that brings on additional ridicule and more eventual regulation……because they are short on cash? Yeah…great business model.

    (By the way, I agree with what you wrote. I just think it is a joke that the sites are STILL so shortsighted. )

    Totally agree with this

  • catmando

    DFS is NOT for the casual player so stop trying to make it that way…its for high dollar..poker players who can afford to lose money

  • depalma13

    @catmando said...

    DFS is NOT for the casual player so stop trying to make it that way…its for high dollar..poker players who can afford to lose money

    And that is why we find high dollar poker players entering $1 games? Give me a break.

    DFS pros that enter dollar games are a cancer and nothing more.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @depalma13 said...

    And that is why we find high dollar poker players entering $1 games? Give me a break.

    DFS pros that enter dollar games are a cancer and nothing more.

    Its easy money for them though. I only play on a “smaller” site, and in my $5 and under 50/50’s there are many pros, including a RG member who advises us on picks right here. He has won every week in the NFL (as have I) . Like I said,its easy money for him.

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