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  • dracornelius

    The Prize payout of featured tournaments are becoming impossible to play, i remembered the days where a 300k NBA slam contest with $25 entry and and a top 30k first prize and those were filling it out. Are they intentionally bringing DFS sports to the ground? The Slam prize structure was the following on a 13793 field. First prize got 10% of the entire price pool, Top 10 got paid 28% of price pool and minimum cash was 2x

    1st $30,000
    2nd $20,000
    3rd $12,000
    4th $8,000
    5th $5,000
    6th $3,000
    7th $2,500
    8th $2,000
    9th – 10th $1,500
    11th – 13th $1,000
    14th – 18th $750
    19th – 25th $500
    26th – 35th $400
    36th – 50th $300
    51st – 100th $250
    101st – 200th $200
    201st – 300th $150
    301st – 400th $125
    401st – 600th $100
    601st – 900th $75
    901st – 1500th $60
    1501st – 2645th $50

    Today 12/18 the Prize structure is the following for a 100k Slam with a 20k first price and top ten with 42.50% of total payout, minimum payout 1.82

    1st $20000
    2nd $10000
    3rd $5,000
    4th $2500
    5th $1500
    6th $1000
    7th – 8th $750
    9th – 10th $500
    11th – 15th $400
    16th – 20th $300
    21st – 30th $250
    31st – 40th $200
    41st – 60th $150
    61st – 100th $125
    101st – 250th $110
    251st – 500th $100

    What do you think?

  • sochoice

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2017 FanDuel WFFC Champion

    I think it will fill. Until tournaments stop filling, your well thought out point is moot.

  • Southie777

    It’s getting beyond absurd. I think there was a football contest recently (presumably the Milly on DK?) that had a $2.5M prize pool with a $1M going to 1st. Huh?????

  • Felixxberg

    Thanks for that post. I’ll copy paste what I said today in the NHL thread:

    Post 1 (part of it):

    New scoring adds randomness, and contests are more top heavy than ever. Even the guys who always crushed it don’t crush anymore. You can’t expect to win a 6K entrant GPP every week.

    The last 6K entrant $10 GPP on resultsDB is last Thursday. It’s a 150 max, so $1.5K to max enter. 15 guys had 150 lineups, 2 had 100, 6 had between 50 and 100. In all of them, only 2 made the top 20. bric75 had 3 in the top 20 for $2.2K, while IBYCFOTA had 1 for $500. Awesemo is next at 24th for $80. It means that out of the 23 guys who had 50+ entries, there’s probably only one who made money, and he didn’t make that much.

    In the past week, I cashed only twice out of 7 days. The average player cashes about 20-25% of the time (with one lineup). 2/7 is fine, but my cashes were $10 in/$15 out and $20 in/$30 out. It didn’t even cover the next day.

    Top heavy contests are popular, but they will kill DFS. Every mass enterer will leave soon enough and then DK will miss them.

    Post 2 (full post):

    The thing is, I’ll continue to play one lineup just in case, but there’s no way I’m entering 150 lineups in such contests. Some guys continue to do it anyway (and I truly don’t understand why), but they’ll run out of money some day, and DK will lose more and more of those mass enterers. No one will be able to constantly beat the rake, and only casual players who play a few lineups just for fun will stay. Contests will then get smaller because mass enterers won’t fill them anymore, and then casual players won’t play anymore either because the prizes won’t be worth it anymore.

    Mass enterers profit from flatter structures, but casual players probably prefer top heavy, because a few lineups in a large GPP is a lottery anyway. DK wants to keep everyone, and I understand that, but they need guys who play $1K+ per night. They want to remove mass enterers advantage and make everyone equal, so they make new rules every season, but at the end of the day, if everyone is equal and loses 15% day after day, everyone will quit. Mass enterers constantly filling contests and paying rake is what they need, and to keep them, they need them to constantly win, but I guess they don’t see that, or maybe I’m wrong.

    I know I’m ranting and maybe I wouldn’t if I won a couple top prizes, but I just feel I can’t find a contest I like night after night. What I’d want is a large flat GPP, but those don’t exist anymore, at least not in NHL.

  • Srmustangs

    All these sites care about as they are becoming profitable and have IPO dreams dancing in their heads is to get you to deposit as much as possible as you continue to go after the huge prizes paying horrendous rake. They are going after the best of both worlds in their minds. They can market the huge jackpots and then get a bit more churn on the bottom. Those in the middle who say come in tenth but only get paid a fraction are the ones they getting squeezed. But since DK and FD know these people having a craving to play they know those are the ones who will deposit over and over. It is all about becoming profitable as much as possible. The care about the ecosystem or the player is a bit Trumpian. They kick out winning sportsbook players and they deal over juiced lines. Profit profit profit. Pay back the shareholders. Then go IPO. Boggles my mind that Fantasy Draft can get no traction with the 15% plus rake the big two are offering.

  • Zieg30

    @sochoice said...

    I think it will fill. Until tournaments stop filling, your well thought out point is moot.

    Yes, and that’s the problem. I really care about this issue, but I also want to play DFS every night. I’d much rather play a large GPP that was 10% of the pool to first and 10% of first to tenth, but I’m still playing even when that isn’t the case. I certainly may play less (for example, I play much less of the milly maker than I used to), but I’m not avoiding the biggest tournaments of the night.

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @Zieg30 said...

    Yes, and that’s the problem. I really care about this issue, but I also want to play DFS every night. I’d much rather play a large GPP that was 10% of the pool to first and 10% of first to tenth, but I’m still playing even when that isn’t the case. I certainly may play less (for example, I play much less of the milly maker than I used to), but I’m not avoiding the biggest tournaments of the night.

    Admittedly I will play one of these poorly structured tournaments once in a while on certain slates (I played fd shot last night $4k to 1st and $150 to 10th) but normally I spend the time to seek out the better structured tournaments. And being honest with myself if i would have sought out a better structured 3 max last night im guessing my profit would have been much better. One day I avoided playing on fd altogether bc the better structured single entry tourny on fd was the $1 tourny and i cant play that due to my experience. And i tweeted fd about it.

    I really dont understand this attitude of “Ive got to play the biggest prizepool tournament irregardless of payout structure”. The OP is right in saying most will go broke playing these poorly structured tournaments yet you seemingly dont care. It’s truly bizarre.

  • thedude404

    • 2015 FanDuel NBA Playboy Mansion Finalist

    As an example today i was going to play in the $12 single entry on dk. Its payout structure sucks. So i took the couple minutes and found the $5, $2, $1 single entries with oddly enough better payout structures plus a few triple ups. So I’m playing for $3009 instead of $4000 top prize, but the payout structures are better. It’s pretty simple.

  • bigez952

    I think everyone underestimates how little the “average” DFS players cares about things like rake and payout structure in comparison to seeing a huge 1st place prize. These top heavy terrible payout structures not only fill but they fill faster than if they took the same contest and slashed the 1st place prize to make a nice payout structure for a top 1% finish.

    If payout structure is important to you which it is for me you can usually find some smaller tournaments that are decent and I will always avoid the big lottery style contest with the eye popping 1st place prize that I know I will never get.

    I don’t like it either but I totally understand why the current payout structure exists in all of the big contests and I think the people in this thread are in the minority which is proven day in and day out as these lottery style contests fill without issue.

  • cheezpizza

    Last year I played in the Power Foward on DK quite a few times. It was 2 max entry with minimum winnings being 2X your entry fee and 1st being $1000.
    Its a limited contest but decent pay structure. The problem is that its an $88 contest and not geared for the average player.
    I remember the days when contests werent mass entered and winning scores were lower and you would double your money if you minimum cashed.

  • Volkster6

    Everything said in this post is correct so in knowing that why even enter the big GPPs with an incorrect mindset? They don’t need to change the structure because the top heavy tournaments fill easily… so since we are in the minority we shouldn’t contribute to them. This won’t solve anything in the long run about the terrible structure but IT SHOULD solve our own personal disdain. Avoid those GPPs and look for the structure that best suits your bankroll/playing style and you should be able to continue to beat the rake and play every day!

    If you look at the MME structure of these GPPs it makes absolutely no sense to mass enter them. Figure out where you need to finish to get 2x on your money and understand that the contest should dictate your lineup, not what lineup you should enter in that contest.

    My firm belief is that the majority of DFS players are even less than casual and don’t even know what rake is. So as a “want to be successful DFS player”, which we all currently are (because we wouldn’t be commenting on this if we didn’t) we shouldn’t be discussing the rake as being as high as it is as much as we should be spending time discussing how to mitigate getting around it!

  • cheezpizza

    @Volkster6 said...

    Everything said in this post is correct so in knowing that why even enter the big GPPs with an incorrect mindset? They don’t need to change the structure because the top heavy tournaments fill easily… so since we are in the minority we shouldn’t contribute to them. This won’t solve anything in the long run about the terrible structure but IT SHOULD solve our own personal disdain. Avoid those GPPs and look for the structure that best suits your bankroll/playing style and you should be able to continue to beat the rake and play every day!

    If you look at the MME structure of these GPPs it makes absolutely no sense to mass enter them. Figure out where you need to finish to get 2x on your money and understand that the contest should dictate your lineup, not what lineup you should enter in that contest.

    My firm belief is that the majority of DFS players are even less than casual and don’t even know what rake is. So as a “want to be successful DFS player”, which we all currently are (because we wouldn’t be commenting on this if we didn’t) we shouldn’t be discussing the rake as being as high as it is as much as we should be spending time discussing how to mitigate getting around it!

    Thats because we all have a bit of degenerate in us and want to chase that $10k in the Twine or whatever multi entry contest is used for the day.
    I also don’t always have the ability to play the higher cost, more player friendly contests.

  • Felixxberg

    @Volkster6 said...

    Avoid those GPPs and look for the structure that best suits your bankroll/playing style and you should be able to continue to beat the rake and play every day!

    I do agree, but there’s a type of contest we can’t find in NHL: large flat (and I don’t mean very flat but just average flat) GPPs.

  • noddy

    Most people want the big prize. They don’t care if min cash is 2x or 1.5x. The thing I don’t get is most people that complain about rake continue to play on DK or FD instead of fantasy draft. They complain all the time, but yet won’t switch sites. That’s mind boggling and asinine.

  • mattspot10

    @noddy said...

    Most people want the big prize. They don’t care if min cash is 2x or 1.5x. The thing I don’t get is most people that complain about rake continue to play on DK or FD instead of fantasy draft. They complain all the time, but yet won’t switch sites. That’s mind boggling and asinine.

    I’m a low stakes player on DK and went to download the fantasydraft app on my iphone the other day before noticing the poor reviews from most users. To be fair, there weren’t very many recent reviews. How many of you primarily use the fantasydraft app and is it as bad as the App Store rating makes it out to be? I’m all for dipping my toe in the rake free water but would like a decent product to do so.

  • Felixxberg

    @cheezpizza said...

    Thats because we all have a bit of degenerate in us and want to chase that $10k in the Twine or whatever multi entry contest is used for the day.
    I also don’t always have the ability to play the higher cost, more player friendly contests.

    That’s the thing. For $10 per night, I’ll put a lottery ticket in, but I just won’t mass enter. Mass entering was something I really liked and I was good at, but now there’s no legit contest where I can do it.

    Yesterday, with one lineup, I finished 12th/4.4K for $80. $10 in, $80 out. That’s just absurd. It should be at least $250.

  • cheezpizza

    @Felixxberg said...

    That’s the thing. For $10 per night, I’ll put a lottery ticket in, but I just won’t mass enter. Mass entering was something I really liked and I was good at, but now there’s no legit contest where I can do it.

    Yesterday, with one lineup, I finished 12th/4.4K for $80. $10 in, $80 out. That’s just absurd. It should be at least $250.

    Very true.
    The payout scale is weighted so they can showcase a “10k to first” title for the contest, when in reality most of us would prefer a balanced scale where 12th can actually make getting 12th worth it.
    I might just start risking more per contest and guaranteeing that its worth cashing.
    In the old days all contests were 2X your entry fee on minimum cash.

  • Zieg30

    @thedude404 said...

    As an example today i was going to play in the $12 single entry on dk. Its payout structure sucks. So i took the couple minutes and found the $5, $2, $1 single entries with oddly enough better payout structures plus a few triple ups. So I’m playing for $3009 instead of $4000 top prize, but the payout structures are better. It’s pretty simple.

    Is it that simple? Are you not also now playing against many more entrants than you would be if you played the $12?

    $3,000 / an average entry fee (I’m not sure what your combos were in entering those three lower ones) of $2.6 = roughly 1,150. $4000 / 12 = 333.

    The payout structures may be better, but you also have much smaller chance of winning.

    In any event, I agree with your comment from your earlier post, as a general matter, but most people playing this do so as a hobby, for entertainment, not to make a consistent income. It’s a lot more fun taking a shot at a bigger prize than a smaller one, though I’ll grant you that making a profit alone is more enjoyable than not. Ultimately, I believe the “bigger prize” does not need to be as huge a % of the entire pool for it to attract entrants, and that DK and FD could set it at 15-20% of the prize pool rather than 25-33%, and have a flatter structure thereafter.

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