INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 327

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Matt Kalish, DK CoFounder and CRO, has agreed to do an interview with Dan next Friday at 2 ET. The interview will be focused entirely on Community Guidelines and Compliace: questions, clarifications, and discussing suggestions for improvement.

    I appreciate Matt’s willingness to do this. He won’t be able to comment on specific screen names or investigations. He will be able to clarify what is/is not allowed in general and discuss ideas for improvements.

    As the ChipotleAddict/Papagates issue continues to prove the community is divided, and often confused, this kind of transparency and face time should be incredibly helpful. DraftKings creating the Community Guidelines and their Compliance department was a huge first step in addressing various issues. I know they care greatly about these issues. I also understand these issues are very complex. Getting more involved with the DFS community on these matters will only make for better Guidelines and a more informed player base.

    Some Notes:
    1. Be constructive
    2. Either ask questions to clarify the current guidelines or suggest improvements to the guidelines. We’re hoping to keep this very focused.
    3. Remember that DK can’t address specific screen names. Ask questions about scenarios not tied to screen names or specific tournaments to get the information you want.

  • bric75

    • 6

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #6

      RG Tiered Ranking

    Have they considered random match up pools with some sort of player cap/protections implemented in the match up process ?

  • tomac

    Two-part question. The two areas that define a user base are recruitment and retention. When advertising budgets shrink, it throws more emphasis on retaining your current user base. With all of the recent attacks on DFS (media attention, political attention, internal issues such as the one which prompted this latest discussion):

    1 – What is your annual retention rate for players at each level (gold, silver, platinum, black) for the past three years?

    2 – What are your short and long range plans to maintain and grow your retention rate?

  • Mattmann91

    • Blogger of the Month

    At what point does purchasing the use of optimizers take away from the skill aspect of DFS?

    Example 1: Casual DFS player gets home from work and fires up their favorite podcast, reads their favorite article, or participates in a group chat about the upcoming slate and from that information is able to formulate their own opinions on players. From here, they make their lineups based on the information they have read or listened to.

    To me this is acceptable and the whole point of tout sites.

    Example 2: Casual DFS player gets off work, and has previously purchased the right to use someone else’s player projections. This casual user logs into their account with said projection pool and clicks optimize to form their lineups.

    To me this example is unacceptable. There is no skill involved here as the player is not using any acquired knowledge to formulate opinions on players. Instead they are indirectly purchasing lineups. Now I know that not all projections are going to be accurate all the time, especially in a high variance sport like baseball. But more times than not, great lineups can be formed from these optimizers without doing a lick of research. And if people were going to accuse CA/PG of using the same player pools and projections as part of the whole debacle, how is this any different allowing hundreds of users to have access to the same pools?

    Again, this is not to take away from what the advice sites do. Because they all do an incredible job at putting information out there for the casual player who may not have the time to break down an entire slate from scratch. It is more of a question of should there be a line drawn, and if so, where?

    I think tools like the lineup builder are extremely valuable, especially for high volume players. I think they can still be used by any user but by requiring this user to formulate their own opinions on player exposures and projections. After all, this is a game of skill.

  • kiztulance09

    AFTER SENDING PROOF OF LINEUP SELLERS AND THEIR ACCOUNTS AND THEIR SUBSCRIBERS ACCOUNTS USING THE LINEUPS DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY….EVERY DAY …. TO GAME INTEGRITY OVER AT DRAFTKINGS WHY IS THERE NOTHING DONE???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?? THE PROOF IS RIGHT THERE EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!!!!!!! I SEND SCREENSHOTS AND NOTHING IS DONE.

  • jjwd

    @Mattmann91 said...

    But more times than not, great lineups can be formed from these optimizers without doing a lick of research.

    Have to disagree with this. I think if we want to have a careful conversation about where to go, we have to understand exactly where we are. I’ve used projections and optimizers for a long time, and it’s rarely been a magic bullet. I think most people would agree. If there are super-expert projections publicly available, this could be a problem in NBA eventually. But I’m not sure we’re there yet. If other people disagree, I would be interested to hear about that. But in the other sports (especially in tournaments) projections are just one piece of the puzzle.

  • awesemo

    • 1

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #1

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x3

      2018 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    I want to point out one additional thing. Many of the issues referred to in the community guidelines and the other thread are specific to salary cap contests, because each player’s lineups are constructed independently. A format where these issues would not exist would be something like an auction draft; where each player’s decisions are dependent on the others. So my question is this: Is Draftkings considering adding different game types to give people who don’t like certain elements of salary drafts another option?

  • EadesScience

    My personal feelings are that the major DFS sites (DK and FS) need to set and enforce rules on the following first and then they can focus on the individual player issues.

    1. Set policies that 3rd party DFS sites must comply and enforce them. DK recently required that lineup optimizers must have some type of input from the user. Many sites complied as directed, however there are still a few and one in particular that will shoot me out 150 lineups without any input from me, except for clicking the mouse, whatsoever. So, if 5 people all use this optimizer from this particular site, I would bet that lineups are going to be close to identical. Is there anyway that DK can do to enforce what they have already put into place?

    2. Does DK provide amenities to high dollar players that the little guy does not ever know about and could you provide us with details on what these are? My Dueling with Kings book has not arrived yet! I think that it is very important that the major DFS sites be honest with the customer base on exactly what they do for whom and why. No names need be given.

    3. Can anything be done about the hundreds of lineup food trucks that offer lineups to the masses to be used on DFS sites? These lineups if bought and used would be identical and how is this any different than what PG/CA are being accused of?

    Thanks for your time and I love playing at DK regardless of the flaws.

    Ricky

  • jimfred82

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    Unacceptable Behavior: “Any pre-built lineups acquired from 3rd party websites or engaging in the distribution of such lineups.”

    Question: When several groups of users ultimately play the same cash game lineups every night, how is that any better or different than the above? Maybe they are working together to build that lineup or maybe one person is building lineups for one sport and another for a different sport and they share those lineups with each other and both enter them in cash games. Does that distinction matter or is this type of activity ultimately OK because it does not come from a “3rd party website?” How is this activity policed?

    First off, thanks for organizing this, Cal. I hope others appreciate how important this interview actually is (potentially) and take this seriously. Back to the topic at hand….

    I’m going to reiterate Stewburt’s (and others upon reading further into the thread) comment as well. It is quite obvious that a huge percentage of DFS “players” are just regurgitating premade lineups into the pools and obviously some (or enough to keep them coming back) are having success, as evidenced by the fact there are hundreds of lineup sellers on twitter bragging about how awesome they are. If this is clearly a rule (or at least an “unacceptable behavior,” then why the heck is it so clearly an acceptable behavior in actuality? I understand it is probably difficult to police this to some extent, but in today’s technological world, there’s no way it’s impossible… and the reality is if people can pay somebody $1 to make $2 somewhat consistently, they will always do it. Years back RG used to have “expert lineups” and they ended up getting rid of that feature because RG users were able to just plug them in and the sites didn’t like it (heck, I even kept track of it for a while with $1 games and they were, not surprisingly, solid lineups). If the sites enforced that those weren’t okay then, why are they not enforcing it now?

  • divusjulius

    • Blogger of the Month

    Why are internal investigations into cheating (or reports about it) kept secret and not shared with players? We know you can protect a person’s private information (name bank ss# etc) while still releasing the data of the report. Especially if the report or investigation is claimed to clear a person, or to show nothing illegal or unethical is going on, why would the site not want to release proof that the games are safe and all players are treated equally (in terms of game integrity, not comps of course).

    In the absence of making this data public, what good is an investigation at all? After all, the public is already coming to these conclusions after looking at the lineups of supposed teams and syndicates, and many people make these claims after looking at patterns in lineup construction. Its not like everyone is claiming the “RNG is fixed—there is a DOOM SWITCH” to use a poker analogy, but rather asking about collusion. Collusion (and bots) happens in poker, we would be naive to think it can’t happen in DFS. There difference between the trust I have in poker sites, and the lack of trust I have in DFS sites comes down to how differently the two industries respond to this fact.

    Players, not the sites, have always been the ones to catch cheating in poker. There’d be nothing wrong with the same occurring in DFS. The difference is how the sites respond. Poker sites work in partnership with players to protect the game, while the perception (maybe this is unfair but then maybe DK/FD need to look at how they act) is that DFS sites take an adversarial position towards the vast majority of players to protect the few. What is the response that DFS players receive? Silence, stonewalling, or scorn.

    What’s the point of conducting an investigation if we can’t see the results?

  • Bernielomax69

    Has anyone looked into the likelihood that the optimizer sites are using the exported data to know ownership percentages? I have spoken to several who have said they do use all data they collect. I have a database of their entries with extremely low owned players in contests. I am in the process of pursuing it at both the legislative and legal levels. Curious if anyone else understands the advantage these “skilled” players have?

  • Heterodox

    @divusjulius said...

    What’s the point of conducting an investigation if we can’t see the results?

    Along these lines, can we at least get raw data on how many violations of TOS/Community Guidelines have been found, what were the violations, what were the punishments, etc? It would be nice to know that there was even a single instance of someone having been found in violation of either, what types of violation are most common, and what the standard punishments are.

    They should be able to provide this without revealing anyone’s identity, so privacy shouldn’t be a concern.

  • ThatStunna

    • 11

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #11

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    Does Draftkings do anything to monitor users who routinely have identical head to head lineups and join the same person’s head to heads multiple times on a single slate, which would circumvent the limiter?

  • depalma13

    Per Draftkings Terms of Use: Contests offered on the Website are contests of skill. From all entries received for each Contest, winners are determined by the individuals who use their skill and knowledge of relevant sports information and fantasy sports rules to accumulate the most points according to the corresponding scoring rules.

    How does Darftkings define the word “their”? Is it singular or plural?

    If it is singular, why does Draftkings allow the same individuals, night after night, to have identical lineups? If it is plural, than what is the point of Draftkings community guidelines?

  • mannmicj

    I know it’s been brought up previously, but I just want to reiterate the need for full transparency when it comes to investigating and suspending accounts. There is a lot of distrust in the industry right now. Having this kind of information available would really contribute to building trust.

    I would suggest a tab or heading on the DK website that would list all currently or previously suspended accounts with a brief description as to why the account was suspended (and reinstated if that happened), as well as a section listing all current or previous investigations with a complete description with outcome (good or bad). Unfortunately, in this day and age we can’t just take someone’s word for it. Having this information published for all to see would be huge for the industry, in my opinion. Thank you for your time.

  • GQ1NYC

    Would you ever consider doing a tiered contest based on player experience level?

    Similarly, I think it would be great on the day the monthly reward contest ran to have several contest that were limited to your player status level. This would be across multiple sports because it sucks when we are in NBA or MLB season to get a PGA monthly contest if you don’t play those contest.

  • sandstorm

    • x2

      2014 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • x2

      2015 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    Is it okay to have a team of specialists?

    Is it okay to team up with a group where you specialize in one sport (hockey), the other specialist does another sport (basketball) and the third does another sport (baseball,etc.). You then share the information with your team and put in the exact same lineup? No pooling of money. Still great guys.

    Would you consider this type of specializing and team play as being a good ambassador to the DFS community? Do you think this type of behavior is healthy for the ecosystem? Do you think it’s fair? What specifically are you doing to eliminate team specializing?

  • Jcb890

    Why is this action and discussion almost a year over-due? Can RG or DK answer that?

  • Rycol19

    I won $150k playing 2 lineups in a $3 Golf game,Oct. 2015. TommyG’s suggestion means I would be lumped into a group of players known as “the sharks”. Every line up I enter is my feel of the players. No algorithm, no lineup builder. I’m sure there are dozens of small fish who won a nice payout that would be mislabeled as a big time player. The only way to separate the two would be by the volume of lineups entered. Plus try to find a way to eliminate automatic lineup entries from 150 at a time to 25.

  • WatsonBankz

    @jimmyrad said...

    I couldn’t agree more with what Tommy had to say +1000, especially the last couple sentences +10,000!

    You do realize this would exclude you from such events that you’re currently playing in?… well as of yesterday anyway. I’m not trying to be a dick, more of devil’s advocate… I don’t think those are realistic “badge” requirements… 100K lifetime earnings and I can’t play in $1 contest?… This leaves no room for testing strats w/o feeling MAX pain.

  • WidumBoise

    Felt like Matty just danced around the questions for that quick half hour and we got out of there right where we left off.

    Anyone else get that vibe?

  • Jvanspro

    Yup. Didn’t really answer anything or have any solutions. Kinda sounded like he didn’t give a rip.

  • MickyD10970

    • 453

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #64

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @WidumBoise said...

    Felt like Matty just danced around the questions for that quick half hour and we got out of there right where we left off.

    Anyone else get that vibe?

    Really wish Dan had actually pushed him instead of agreeing immediately with every excuse Kalish gave. Complete waste of time and answered none of the concerns. It seemed he was actually okaying team play while not directly answering any questions. Probably explains who wrote the “guidelines”

  • Jvanspro

    @MickyD10970 said...

    Really wish Dan had actually pushed him instead of agreeing immediately with every excuse Kalish gave. Complete waste of time and answered none of the concerns. It seemed he was actually okaying team play while not directly answering any questions. Probably explains who wrote the “guidelines”

    100% agree. Not a very good interview. Dan just agreed with everything.

  • WidumBoise

    @Jvanspro said...

    100% agree. Not a very good interview. Dan just agreed with everything.

    Yeah it was a kind of go through the motions and get it over with and say we did it type of interview. Nothing to be gained that we didn’t already know, just reassurance that something is being done without any actual evidence of anything being done.

  • BmoreClutch

    @MickyD10970 said...

    Really wish Dan had actually pushed him instead of agreeing immediately with every excuse Kalish gave. Complete waste of time and answered none of the concerns. It seemed he was actually okaying team play while not directly answering any questions. Probably explains who wrote the “guidelines”

    They would have been better off not even doing the interview. I think there’s even more questions now about the guidelines/game integrity.

    I almost turned it off when they were talking about LU providers. Kalish said they’ve taken care of the most well known providers. Meanwhile probably the biggest LU provider is still all over DK.

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