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  • lineupofpeace

    Just got an e-mail about this. Also giving players multiple position eligibility.

  • billholler

    Nothing Zieg30 said was the truth or even had an inkling of common sense.

  • billholler

    Yep, it took skill to avoid Jimmy Butler. The 30% that picked him were just bad players. It took skill to avoid all the Cavs value plays that everyone was touting because their coach said the regular starters would be resting. It took skill to avoid Conley and Gasol on a night where their combined ownership was about 40%. It took skill to avoid George Hill who had a sore friggin toe but no one knew but him. It took skill to avoid Jae Crowder in a good spot last night because he wasn’t even with the team and they didn’t tell anyone until after lock. It takes skill to predict whichever random Spur that is rested each night.

    I must be a terrible player.

  • Pick1979

    Bottom line losing late swap only hurt dedicated players. It was a bone headed move and the way the CORPORATE world works (as many here know) is there is a public reason we are doing this and a PRIVATE one (just like ANY Politicans positions on many topics). They are always to benefit the corporation and sometimes as luck would have it, it helps the people that have to follow said rule changes, but that is not the objective, often it is to their determent, no matter how many times the malarky for the change/law/rule was repeated.

    You vote with your money and organize a strike from playing/working etc to shift the leverage.

  • jimfred82

    • Blogger of the Month

    Honest question: Have any of you guys who keep getting hosed stopped or reduced your play?

  • KindGuy

    @jimfred82 said...

    Honest question: Have any of you guys who keep getting hosed stopped or reduced your play?

    That’s the problem, they dont. Instead they keep on giving DK their money and complain every time a late scratch hits them as if they didn’t know the rules before hand. It’s quite comical.

  • Zieg30

    • 964

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @billholler said...

    Yep, it took skill to avoid Jimmy Butler. The 30% that picked him were just bad players. It took skill to avoid all the Cavs value plays that everyone was touting because their coach said the regular starters would be resting. It took skill to avoid Conley and Gasol on a night where their combined ownership was about 40%. It took skill to avoid George Hill who had a sore friggin toe but no one knew but him. It took skill to avoid Jae Crowder in a good spot last night because he wasn’t even with the team and they didn’t tell anyone until after lock. It takes skill to predict whichever random Spur that is rested each night.

    I must be a terrible player.

    But I never said any of that took skill. I actually argued the exact opposite.

    I merely said that it was akin to not being able to know whether O’Quinn or Hermangomez were going to get more minutes a few nights ago. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the NBA, and any sport. Not being able to late swap certainly adds a bit more, but that’s it.

  • Zieg30

    • 964

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @billholler said...

    Nothing Zieg30 said was the truth or even had an inkling of common sense.

    You want late swap, I want late swap.

    We merely disagree about how the lack thereof actually alters the skill element of the game. I think its removal doesn’t change much, given the uncertainty already inherent to DFS. It just adds a bit to that uncertainty. You argue otherwise.

    There was no need for your blanket statement.

  • JZ

    I don’t mind them not bringing back complete late swap. But maybe they can just let you swap that 1 position. This would limit your options but prevent you taking a zero.

  • billholler

    @Zieg30 said...

    But I never said any of that took skill. I actually argued the exact opposite.

    I merely said that it was akin to not being able to know whether O’Quinn or Hermangomez were going to get more minutes a few nights ago. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the NBA, and any sport. Not being able to late swap certainly adds a bit more, but that’s it.

    So you once again just agreed that it removes the skill aspect which makes it pure luck (gambling) but then compare it to which player will get more minutes which requires research (skill). Comparing something that happens in game to something that happens prior to tip off is just asinine.

  • jdelsas

    Unless you have the worst luck in the world or are just not a very skilled DFS player, these late scratches should NOT always affect you. Most times you are aware of that someone is questionable, so that’s on you if you decide to roster players with these designations. And, in the events where it’s a true late scratch, I’d like to say this evens out over the long run (unless you fall into the category of my first sentence).

    Post all-star break is known for much more late scratches, so if you don’t either lower your entries or don’t play altogether, you know what you are getting into. If you truly want late swap back, it will take a large majority to go dark on the site for them to lose money. That will never happen though, as everyone prefers chasing overlay vs standing up for the cause (and I can’t say I disagree with them).

  • billholler

    @jdelsas said...

    Most times you are aware of that someone is questionable, so that’s on you if you decide to roster players with these designations.

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

  • MickyD10970

    • 582

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #69

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @billholler said...

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

    You are fighting the good fight, Bill, but I fear it won’t do you any good. DraftKings like many large companies makes decisions based on spreadsheets not out of what their players actually want. I don’t see that it would be too hard for them to offer 2 different game sets, 1 with late swap and 1 without, but that would be asking too much…. Maybe they are afraid that the truth would come out and the overlay would appear in the non late swap games. As many posters have pointed out until the games stop filling they do not care about all the money lit on fire from late scratches. I myself will not make another deposit and curtailed my NBA action drastically and I mean drastically. I am guessing there are others out there that have done the same but not enough to impact any change. And before somebody chimes in with their survey revealed the majority prefer non late swap, I don’t care….. Our country elected Trump president but more people voted for Hilary.

  • DefinitelyMiami

    @jdelsas said...

    Unless you have the worst luck in the world or are just not a very skilled DFS player, these late scratches should NOT always affect you.

    O rly? Tell that to those of us who play a single entry and had Butler. We were dead in the water before the game even started through no fault of our own. Hard to justify when you were able to “late swap” in NFL a mere 2 weeks ago, and most likely will be able to late swap in MLB in a month

  • MarMarHoopStar

    They should have late swap/non late swap contests… late swap for those that choose to and can use it, and non late swap for those that can’t keep up, or have to work before/during lock

  • Zieg30

    • 964

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @billholler said...

    So you once again just agreed that it removes the skill aspect which makes it pure luck (gambling) but then compare it to which player will get more minutes which requires research (skill). Comparing something that happens in game to something that happens prior to tip off is just asinine.

    I have agreed that removing late-swap adds more uncertainty, but that its removal simply doesn’t result in DFS being “pure luck (gambling).” DFS is a healthy mixture of luck and skill with or without late-swap.

    Well, perhaps my example was poor, but I was attempting to provide an example that wasn’t really researchable. Was there some skill that would have led one to anticipate, before the game, that O’Quinn would get the minutes he did over a hot Hernangomez (outside of simply knowing that the Knicks were shorthanded and one of them was likely going to have a good game and flipping a coin)? My point is that there is a ton of uncertainty in DFS for events occurring after tip off.

    Edit: I think we’re just talking past each other here. All I’m saying is that the removal of late-swap didn’t suddenly make DFS “pure luck”. I’ll agree with you that it increased the luck-based aspect a bit at the expense of the skill-based aspect and I think we can call it a day.

  • jdelsas

    @billholler said...

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

    I understand this happens, but until the NBA league office makes teams actually report injuries a set period of time before the game starts it’s always going to happen to some extent (that would include “player X is questionable/doubtful for personal reasons” tags).

    I have been bit hard just like a lot of other people in this thread (as recently as last night), but there have also been nights where I have zero exposure to a late scratch. I, personally, am willing to battle through the low points of getting punched in the gut with a late scratch…late swap was great while it was around, but the amount of additional strategy and time it takes up after lock, I think I am fine with it staying away for now.

  • billholler

    @MickyD10970 said...

    You are fighting the good fight, Bill, but I fear it won’t do you any good

    At this point, I admit that I am whining and no longer fighting. That’s a skill I learned from being married for 20 years.

  • wideopen23

    @billholler said...

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

    Exactly. The casual fan doesn’t want to have to be a slave to breaking news all night. Some people have jobs, wives, kids etc..
    Whether we like it or not, FD and DK is going after the casual fan more than grinders. They already have the grinders. The business will only grow if they can get more casual fan money into the game. By the way, the more casual money the better the games are for the rest of us.

    I remember back in my party poker days, the site had a number of dumb policies but many of the bad players played on PP so the “pros” stayed.

  • Lathum

    @Pick1979 said...

    Bottom line losing late swap only hurt dedicated players. It was a bone headed move and the way the CORPORATE world works (as many here know) is there is a public reason we are doing this and a PRIVATE one (just like ANY Politicans positions on many topics). They are always to benefit the corporation and sometimes as luck would have it, it helps the people that have to follow said rule changes, but that is not the objective, often it is to their determent, no matter how many times the malarky for the change/law/rule was repeated.

    You vote with your money and organize a strike from playing/working etc to shift the leverage.

    How DARE a company look out for its best interest rather then pander to the bitching of a vocal minority!

  • w3stcoastoff3ns3

    @wideopen23 said...

    Exactly. The casual fan doesn’t want to have to be a slave to breaking news all night. Some people have jobs, wives, kids etc..
    Whether we like it or not, FD and DK is going after the casual fan more than grinders. They already have the grinders. The business will only grow if they can get more casual fan money into the game. By the way, the more casual money the better the games are for the rest of us.

    I remember back in my party poker days, the site had a number of dumb policies but many of the bad players played on PP so the “pros” stayed.

    Hold on… I’m a casual player (with kids and a wife) and late swap was a plus to me. If I miss some news it saved me so many times from having a dud in my lines. The other night I have a line up stacked 7 times only for Jae Crowder to be a late scratch. The LU finished like 10 points away from cash and Crowder was only 6% owned so I’m sure I would have cashed a tad bit more than min. For a casual player such as myself that really blows. I don’t buy into the whole no late swap is easier for casual players bs, who wouldn’t want a chance to take a dud out their line ups? And with twitter alerts etc you can get updates so you don’t have to sit in front of your computer/phone all night. Also if you are a CASUAL player you shouldnt have too many line ups so it only takes a few seconds to take a guy out your line up. I’m more than likely switching over to yahoo because of this and will just play cheap single entry contest on DK.

  • superstars92

    I guess you just need to adjust your strategy for these late news, knowing that lineups lock at 7. So like tonight, I am basically forced to play both Alan Williams and Alex Len at C/Util because I don’t know which one is starting. Obviously, I had a lineup which I liked a lot more for my cash game which just had one of those 2 centers at the C position and someone else at Util (and other spots too) and I would be able to late swap whoever was announced starting as the C as my 3k C. However, given there has not been an announcement on who is starting, I had to adjust my strategy and play both together.

    Keep in mind no one has the ability to late swap, so this is an even playing field. Obviously, late scratches affect some more than others, but over the long run, that even outs. I’ve probably had more of these late scratches hurt me than most people, but I don’t mind at all.

  • superstars92

    Also you guys know not having late swaps HURTS pros more than amateurs. An average amateur player is not as likely to swap out an injured player as an average pro (who will be keeping track of news all the time after 7). Furthermore, an average pro not only can swap out his player due to late breaking news, but can create completely new lineups that take advantage of this news too (so like if a high usage player is out, he can not only swap out the high usage player but then create new lineups with his teammates who have higher usage). So this argument that amateur players will quit playing because one of their players gets injured is false – the average amateur will benefit from not having late swaps.

  • TeamTwerk

    Well said superstars. I think bottom of line is a lot of people just want there to be more dead lineups and $ in the pool from people not following late news. The late scratches should impact all DFS players equally.

  • SkateFiend

    @superstars92 said...

    Also you guys know not having late swaps HURTS pros more than amateurs. An average amateur player is not as likely to swap out an injured player as an average pro (who will be keeping track of news all the time after 7). Furthermore, an average pro not only can swap out his player due to late breaking news, but can create completely new lineups that take advantage of this news too (so like if a high usage player is out, he can not only swap out the high usage player but then create new lineups with his teammates who have higher usage). So this argument that amateur players will quit playing because one of their players gets injured is false – the average amateur will benefit from not having late swaps.

    The absence of late swap surely affects the pros, but they might have hundreds of other lineups that doesn’t have a scratched player. If someone like Butler is ruled inactive 20 minutes before tipoff, I’m guessing something like 20% of the DK field will be essentially eliminated on the spot. The competition shrinks for the sharks.

    My NBA bankroll is at Yahoo is no more than 20 bucks. I only play 2,3 one dollar lineups a night. If I didn’t have late swap there, I would have lost 7,8 bucks easy, if not more. That’s a chunk of my bankroll. If NBA no late swap was industry standard I would have stopped playing anything other than low stake cash games.

    Now imagine people spending 20-30 bucks a night. There are probably a lot of amateurs who do that. People who played Butler on that night lost quite a bit of money.

  • lazyidea

    there should be a backup slot in case one player is a late scratch. to be fair though, it can only be as high of the lowest priced player on your roster.

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