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  • lineupofpeace

    Just got an e-mail about this. Also giving players multiple position eligibility.

  • JZ

    I don’t mind them not bringing back complete late swap. But maybe they can just let you swap that 1 position. This would limit your options but prevent you taking a zero.

  • billholler

    @Zieg30 said...

    But I never said any of that took skill. I actually argued the exact opposite.

    I merely said that it was akin to not being able to know whether O’Quinn or Hermangomez were going to get more minutes a few nights ago. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the NBA, and any sport. Not being able to late swap certainly adds a bit more, but that’s it.

    So you once again just agreed that it removes the skill aspect which makes it pure luck (gambling) but then compare it to which player will get more minutes which requires research (skill). Comparing something that happens in game to something that happens prior to tip off is just asinine.

  • jdelsas

    Unless you have the worst luck in the world or are just not a very skilled DFS player, these late scratches should NOT always affect you. Most times you are aware of that someone is questionable, so that’s on you if you decide to roster players with these designations. And, in the events where it’s a true late scratch, I’d like to say this evens out over the long run (unless you fall into the category of my first sentence).

    Post all-star break is known for much more late scratches, so if you don’t either lower your entries or don’t play altogether, you know what you are getting into. If you truly want late swap back, it will take a large majority to go dark on the site for them to lose money. That will never happen though, as everyone prefers chasing overlay vs standing up for the cause (and I can’t say I disagree with them).

  • billholler

    @jdelsas said...

    Most times you are aware of that someone is questionable, so that’s on you if you decide to roster players with these designations.

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

  • MickyD10970

    • 438

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #39

      RG Tiered Ranking

    @billholler said...

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

    You are fighting the good fight, Bill, but I fear it won’t do you any good. DraftKings like many large companies makes decisions based on spreadsheets not out of what their players actually want. I don’t see that it would be too hard for them to offer 2 different game sets, 1 with late swap and 1 without, but that would be asking too much…. Maybe they are afraid that the truth would come out and the overlay would appear in the non late swap games. As many posters have pointed out until the games stop filling they do not care about all the money lit on fire from late scratches. I myself will not make another deposit and curtailed my NBA action drastically and I mean drastically. I am guessing there are others out there that have done the same but not enough to impact any change. And before somebody chimes in with their survey revealed the majority prefer non late swap, I don’t care….. Our country elected Trump president but more people voted for Hilary.

  • DefinitelyMiami

    @jdelsas said...

    Unless you have the worst luck in the world or are just not a very skilled DFS player, these late scratches should NOT always affect you.

    O rly? Tell that to those of us who play a single entry and had Butler. We were dead in the water before the game even started through no fault of our own. Hard to justify when you were able to “late swap” in NFL a mere 2 weeks ago, and most likely will be able to late swap in MLB in a month

  • MarMarHoopStar

    They should have late swap/non late swap contests… late swap for those that choose to and can use it, and non late swap for those that can’t keep up, or have to work before/during lock

  • Zieg30

    • 758

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @billholler said...

    So you once again just agreed that it removes the skill aspect which makes it pure luck (gambling) but then compare it to which player will get more minutes which requires research (skill). Comparing something that happens in game to something that happens prior to tip off is just asinine.

    I have agreed that removing late-swap adds more uncertainty, but that its removal simply doesn’t result in DFS being “pure luck (gambling).” DFS is a healthy mixture of luck and skill with or without late-swap.

    Well, perhaps my example was poor, but I was attempting to provide an example that wasn’t really researchable. Was there some skill that would have led one to anticipate, before the game, that O’Quinn would get the minutes he did over a hot Hernangomez (outside of simply knowing that the Knicks were shorthanded and one of them was likely going to have a good game and flipping a coin)? My point is that there is a ton of uncertainty in DFS for events occurring after tip off.

    Edit: I think we’re just talking past each other here. All I’m saying is that the removal of late-swap didn’t suddenly make DFS “pure luck”. I’ll agree with you that it increased the luck-based aspect a bit at the expense of the skill-based aspect and I think we can call it a day.

  • jdelsas

    @billholler said...

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

    I understand this happens, but until the NBA league office makes teams actually report injuries a set period of time before the game starts it’s always going to happen to some extent (that would include “player X is questionable/doubtful for personal reasons” tags).

    I have been bit hard just like a lot of other people in this thread (as recently as last night), but there have also been nights where I have zero exposure to a late scratch. I, personally, am willing to battle through the low points of getting punched in the gut with a late scratch…late swap was great while it was around, but the amount of additional strategy and time it takes up after lock, I think I am fine with it staying away for now.

  • billholler

    @MickyD10970 said...

    You are fighting the good fight, Bill, but I fear it won’t do you any good

    At this point, I admit that I am whining and no longer fighting. That’s a skill I learned from being married for 20 years.

  • wideopen23

    @billholler said...

    Going to start just copying and pasting my previous answers. Once again, no one is even complaining about questionable players being scratched after lock. It’s the players that are not even mentioned as possibly resting that are scratched after lock. Or the ones that have a sore big toe and no one knows about it until 6 minutes after lock. Or a player is in Texas with his family and no one in or around the team even mentions it until 10 minutes before a 9:30 tip off.

    Exactly. The casual fan doesn’t want to have to be a slave to breaking news all night. Some people have jobs, wives, kids etc..
    Whether we like it or not, FD and DK is going after the casual fan more than grinders. They already have the grinders. The business will only grow if they can get more casual fan money into the game. By the way, the more casual money the better the games are for the rest of us.

    I remember back in my party poker days, the site had a number of dumb policies but many of the bad players played on PP so the “pros” stayed.

  • Lathum

    @Pick1979 said...

    Bottom line losing late swap only hurt dedicated players. It was a bone headed move and the way the CORPORATE world works (as many here know) is there is a public reason we are doing this and a PRIVATE one (just like ANY Politicans positions on many topics). They are always to benefit the corporation and sometimes as luck would have it, it helps the people that have to follow said rule changes, but that is not the objective, often it is to their determent, no matter how many times the malarky for the change/law/rule was repeated.

    You vote with your money and organize a strike from playing/working etc to shift the leverage.

    How DARE a company look out for its best interest rather then pander to the bitching of a vocal minority!

  • w3stcoastoff3ns3

    @wideopen23 said...

    Exactly. The casual fan doesn’t want to have to be a slave to breaking news all night. Some people have jobs, wives, kids etc..
    Whether we like it or not, FD and DK is going after the casual fan more than grinders. They already have the grinders. The business will only grow if they can get more casual fan money into the game. By the way, the more casual money the better the games are for the rest of us.

    I remember back in my party poker days, the site had a number of dumb policies but many of the bad players played on PP so the “pros” stayed.

    Hold on… I’m a casual player (with kids and a wife) and late swap was a plus to me. If I miss some news it saved me so many times from having a dud in my lines. The other night I have a line up stacked 7 times only for Jae Crowder to be a late scratch. The LU finished like 10 points away from cash and Crowder was only 6% owned so I’m sure I would have cashed a tad bit more than min. For a casual player such as myself that really blows. I don’t buy into the whole no late swap is easier for casual players bs, who wouldn’t want a chance to take a dud out their line ups? And with twitter alerts etc you can get updates so you don’t have to sit in front of your computer/phone all night. Also if you are a CASUAL player you shouldnt have too many line ups so it only takes a few seconds to take a guy out your line up. I’m more than likely switching over to yahoo because of this and will just play cheap single entry contest on DK.

  • superstars92

    I guess you just need to adjust your strategy for these late news, knowing that lineups lock at 7. So like tonight, I am basically forced to play both Alan Williams and Alex Len at C/Util because I don’t know which one is starting. Obviously, I had a lineup which I liked a lot more for my cash game which just had one of those 2 centers at the C position and someone else at Util (and other spots too) and I would be able to late swap whoever was announced starting as the C as my 3k C. However, given there has not been an announcement on who is starting, I had to adjust my strategy and play both together.

    Keep in mind no one has the ability to late swap, so this is an even playing field. Obviously, late scratches affect some more than others, but over the long run, that even outs. I’ve probably had more of these late scratches hurt me than most people, but I don’t mind at all.

  • superstars92

    Also you guys know not having late swaps HURTS pros more than amateurs. An average amateur player is not as likely to swap out an injured player as an average pro (who will be keeping track of news all the time after 7). Furthermore, an average pro not only can swap out his player due to late breaking news, but can create completely new lineups that take advantage of this news too (so like if a high usage player is out, he can not only swap out the high usage player but then create new lineups with his teammates who have higher usage). So this argument that amateur players will quit playing because one of their players gets injured is false – the average amateur will benefit from not having late swaps.

  • TeamTwerk

    Well said superstars. I think bottom of line is a lot of people just want there to be more dead lineups and $ in the pool from people not following late news. The late scratches should impact all DFS players equally.

  • SkateFiend

    @superstars92 said...

    Also you guys know not having late swaps HURTS pros more than amateurs. An average amateur player is not as likely to swap out an injured player as an average pro (who will be keeping track of news all the time after 7). Furthermore, an average pro not only can swap out his player due to late breaking news, but can create completely new lineups that take advantage of this news too (so like if a high usage player is out, he can not only swap out the high usage player but then create new lineups with his teammates who have higher usage). So this argument that amateur players will quit playing because one of their players gets injured is false – the average amateur will benefit from not having late swaps.

    The absence of late swap surely affects the pros, but they might have hundreds of other lineups that doesn’t have a scratched player. If someone like Butler is ruled inactive 20 minutes before tipoff, I’m guessing something like 20% of the DK field will be essentially eliminated on the spot. The competition shrinks for the sharks.

    My NBA bankroll is at Yahoo is no more than 20 bucks. I only play 2,3 one dollar lineups a night. If I didn’t have late swap there, I would have lost 7,8 bucks easy, if not more. That’s a chunk of my bankroll. If NBA no late swap was industry standard I would have stopped playing anything other than low stake cash games.

    Now imagine people spending 20-30 bucks a night. There are probably a lot of amateurs who do that. People who played Butler on that night lost quite a bit of money.

  • lazyidea

    there should be a backup slot in case one player is a late scratch. to be fair though, it can only be as high of the lowest priced player on your roster.

  • superstars92

    @SkateFiend said...

    The absence of late swap surely affects the pros, but they might have hundreds of other lineups that doesn’t have a scratched player. If someone like Butler is ruled inactive 20 minutes before tipoff, I’m guessing something like 20% of the DK field will be essentially eliminated on the spot. The competition shrinks for the sharks.

    My NBA bankroll is at Yahoo is no more than 20 bucks. I only play 2,3 one dollar lineups a night. If I didn’t have late swap there, I would have lost 7,8 bucks easy, if not more. That’s a chunk of my bankroll. If NBA no late swap was industry standard I would have stopped playing anything other than low stake cash games.

    Now imagine people spending 20-30 bucks a night. There are probably a lot of amateurs who do that. People who played Butler on that night lost quite a bit of money.

    So first of all, let me say that I personally don’t prefer or not prefer the late swap. I am not a full-time player, but if there was a late swap option, due to the amount I put in, I think I would be dedicated enough to check news after lineup locks to see if one of my players gets scratched or another player that I don’t have gets scratched and change my lineups accordingly. However, I totally don’t mind not having the late swap because it’s an even playing field (no one has it), and it’s just healthier not to worry about lineups constantly.

    I am just making an argument from DK’s or FD’s perspective on why they don’t have late swaps, and why you guys shouldn’t care that much.

    So the statement you made actually isn’t about EV between an amateur/pro but rather about variance. I completely understand that if an amateur only submits 1 lineup (or like very few lineups), all of his lineups could be affected if a player he has gets scratched and he cannot make a late swap. However, let’s consider the average amateur player and the average pro. This is why I keep on mentioning average above.

    So let’s say for the sake of simplicity, the average amateur player only submits 1 lineup a night. There are 100 amateur players. Then lets say there is only 1 pro (just to make it simple) and he submits 100 lineups a night. Also, for the sake of simplicity, let’s say it costs 1 dollar to enter this tourney, and all 100 amateurs enter their 1 lineup and the pro enters his 100 lineups. You can change the numbers above, but I am just trying to make the math simple.

    Now, let’s say Jimmy Butler, who is 20 percent owned, is late scratched. Now, the distribution of Jimmy Butler between amateur players and pros shouldn’t be different. That is because the inherent “luck” of a pro and an amateur is not different. If the distribution is different over the long run, then that means pros have some kind of extra information that Butler might get late scratched, but clearly this is not the case (or this would be very, very bad).

    So 20 of the 100 amateurs now are screwed, but the pro also has 20 of his 100 lineups screwed. So in this case, yes, individually for those 20 amateurs, that kind of sucks. Like from an individual perspective, those 20 amateurs only had 1 lineup, and now there is no shot for them to win. However, the pro actually lost the same as the average amateur here. He also has 20 dead lineups. Of course, he also has 80 other lineups that do not have Jimmy Butler, but there are also 80 other amateurs who did not have Jimmy Butler and benefited. So the AVERAGE amateur and the AVERAGE pro are affected equally in my scenario. Of course, individually, that might not be the case, but that is just variance.

    Now, why do I say above that the average pro might actually benefit than the average amateur with a late swap. So go back to my scenario above. Let’s say there was a late swap. The pro is almost 100 percent guaranteed to swap Jimmy Butler out of his 20 lineups. However, NOT ALL 20 amateurs that had Jimmy Butler will swap Jimmy Butler out of their lineups. That is because not 100 percent of amateurs keep following news until tipoff of every game. So maybe some of them will (like people here), but not all of them will. As long as not all 20 out of 20 amateurs that had Jimmy Butler will swap Jimmy Butler out (which is most likely the case), then the average pro will benefit over the average amateur with the late swap.

    That is why the average pro actually benefits over the average amateur with the late swap and not having the late swap actually makes the playing field more even. Of course, on an individual basis, this is not the case, but we are talking about average basis here.

    Again, I am just trying to make a perspective on both sides here. Feel free to agree or disagree, but like I said, I don’t mind not having or having the late swap. I think technically the late swap would help me more because I would take advantage of it more than just “replacing an injured player”. I might do some other things like not only replacing the injured player but coming up with new lineups that take this news of this injured player into account. However, I also don’t mind not having the late swap either (and again keep in mind, I’ve lost a ton of money from Marc Gasol late scratch, KP’s 6:55 late scratch, etc. so I’m not even biased here).

  • Zieg30

    • 758

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @superstars92 said...

    am just making an argument from DK’s or FD’s perspective on why they don’t have late swaps, and why you guys shouldn’t care that much.

    Wonderful, and instructive, post.

  • SkateFiend

    My point is that no late swap will hit casual (or amateurs) players harder because it’ll drain their smaller bankroll faster, and on nights when a star player is unexpectedly scratched, they can’t rely on 80 other lineups to try to minimize their losses.

    Pros are pros for a reason. They obviously have some model that allows them to win BIG money consistently. They do this for a living. 80 viable lineups from an individual pro who relied on some prediction model is probably more optimal than 80 disparate lineups from random casuals who might have chased name recognition or listened to “experts” that apparently disappoint members here nightly.

    If you have a formula that works and have the bankroll to put in hundreds of lineups a day, then you probably have enough resources to endure losses incurred by no late swap policy – or conversely win big when your lineups avoid late scratches. It’ll even out more smoothly in the long run. Someone in another thread said Maxdaulary sometimes goes weeks without winning anything, but he’ll eventually hit it big.

    If a few amateurs neglected to make changes DESPITE having late swap, it benefits everyone else in general. My Jimmy Butler-less lineups would still go up against hundreds of Jimmy Butler-less pro lineups in DK. At Yahoo player response to late breaking changes is nearly universal. To put it another way – with no late swap I risk losing money. With late swap, pros and everyone else can make the appropriate changes and salvage their lineups. That an unforeseeable amount of people might forget to swap in players is not enough of an advantage is to voluntarily forego increased choices to protect my investment.

  • messner4442

    I think we should be able to make substitutions for players who are reported injured and out after the starting time of tournaments. it only makes sense. hood was scratched after the games tipped off Wednesday night and I was stuck…..that has happened to me lots of times and I think it needs to stop. changes only should be able to be made if a player has an o next to his name.

  • joonyari22

    • Blogger of the Month

    i was on hood, got the alert at 6:58pm EST and was able to pivot last minute – lineup ended up being egregious anyway but that’s besides the point…that news did come out prior to lock.

  • terry1111111

    Well I don’t like it .. I think the late swap makes it interesting and allows us to be more involved don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.

  • juicetea22

    • Blogger of the Month

    We’ve had enough! Sites need to offer special late swaps for these reasons! It’s getting out of hand in regards to late scratches after lock! Allow customers to only late swap for those reasons! I have dumped too much $$ recently! When a guy like James gets taken out after lock it shortens the field by a great deal!

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