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  • thepr0phet

    Draft Kings emails your opponents to edit their lineups…

    Admin Note: Click here to jump to page 4 to read response from DraftKings CEO.

    Ok so that is a scintillating headline, but I want a lot of people to see this because I strongly disagree with Draft Kings on this. If you haven’t noticed Draft Kings has now begun completely removing entire games (and all of the players from those games) from their player menu for contests & gpps. So last night there were 4 games postponed, which means Draft Kings removed 8 SPs from the menu & 103 hitters from the menu. Which means that Draft Kings removed 111 possible mistakes that your opponents could have made last night.

    This isn’t the first time Draft Kings has done this. The first time I noticed it was on January 29th when the Detroit Pistons & Atlanta Hawks game was cancelled due to the snow storm in Atlanta; some of you may remember. Actually, that night I signed into Draft Day & when I entered the player menu for my contest a bright red warning sign flashed saying “WARNING: the Det/Atl game has been cancelled for tonight. No players stats from these games will be counted towards your total lineup score.” I was furious & immediately sent an email to support. Then, I went to register for contests at Draft Kings & noticed the same thing, only they had the players removed from the menu! I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t even understand how that was possible. The news had just broken early that afternoon & the contests originate the night before & a few players always start registering as soon as they can. How did they remove the players without effecting those lineups???

    The answer is that they emailed those players directly to change their lineups. Which the funny thing about that is, it actually hurts those players that don’t see those emails. I don’t know about you, but I get dozens of emails from the sites everyday. You know “Your contests have started”, “Congratulations, You won your contests!” “Don’t miss out on this Friday’s $100k tournament”, etc. A lot of people obviously miss seeing those emails & consequently may not adjust their lineup accordingly. Yet, now all of the players that come after them don’t have the same opportunity to make the mistakes that those owners did because the Hawks & Pistons players were completely removed from the menu. Oddly enough, in the Draft Day contests that I played that night, I saw at least one opponent in every contest that selected a Hawk or Piston, even though there was a bright red banner telling them not to. Simply Amazing. FanDuel that night just had a faint thin little banner in the lobby menu that said the game was cancelled. In my FanDuel contests Atl & Det player ownership was as much as 2% & 3%. Collectively across large entry GPPs collective ownership of those players was 15+%. Think about that for a second. You gain a 15% or more edge on the entire field. What does that do for your ROI? That’s why I love FanDuel (even though, I secretly don’t because their software is such crap).

    I post in another forum regularly, some of you may be aware. I posted about this & the reaction was “Big deal it’s just one game on one night. It’s for the greater good. Fish will be happy. What makes the fish happy is what’s best. etc”. And I said at the time “Oh yeah, well tell me about that when they start removing the players from rained out games in MLB contests in April & May. Tell me then it’s no big deal while your ROI plummets south”. And that’s regardless of the fact that I believe 99.99999% of fish would just say “Damn! I gotta do a better job of checking the weather for these games.” FanDuel doesn’t baby players & are they hurting for players? I rest my case.

    Now, here’s an example from my own play tonight at both Draft Kings were they remove the players (and have weather forecasts inside the game icons) and FanDuel were the responsibility falls to the individual player to set his lineup (as it should). I invested $90 in 50/50 contests & gpps on Draft Kings tonight, and I was down $18. I missed all of the gpps & only cashed in about 75% of my 50/50s on Draft Kings. And the ones that I did cash in were by the skin of my teeth. On FanDuel, I invested $100 & I shipped everything. Let me say that again I shipped everything! Every 50/50, h2h, league tournament & GPP. I essentially used the same players for each site. Obviously the structure is different with (with 2 SPs at DK & only 1 at FD) & also the different player prices. Not to mention the stacking that DK allows, which further hurts your ROI. But I had Ventura, Hosmer, Infante, Tulo, Gordon, and Choo on both sites. Alvarez > Moustakas & Rosario > Jaso & No one > Cole as my 2nd SP obviously a big advantage for my FD lineup. But so was the cumulative 10% to 15+% of the field that had players from one of the four postponed games at FanDuel. I just had to suck it up & take it at Draft Kings. Not only that but they’re emailing my opponents to say “Hey fix your lineup!” Wtf man???

    For those that don’t play MLB contests, how do you like the thought of Draft Kings removing all players that are inactive from their menu an hour before NFL contests start? We already pay an exorbitant rake & receive 1% or less rakeback (Lol on that). Do you really think that your bankroll can with stand that?

    Here’s a scary thought, and remember I was the one foreshadowing the MLB rainout removals back in January (and the crazy thing about that is I didn’t really believe they would do it, I was just throwing it out there as a what if). What’s next from Draft Kings… They start highlight players in bright red with favorable splits that night? They remove players that are out of the lineup for MLB contests? They partner with Baseball Prospectus so that every player you’ve never heard of before has a video link attached to him that everyone can click & up pops a video with a 3 minute explanation of everything you ever wanted to know about that player? The day they move in that direction. I resign from DFS.

    I’m already contemplating clearing my account at DK. I’m down $1k there this year (83ish% of my roll on DK). Look me up I’m 106th on the rotogrinders’ MLB monthly leaderboard. If I can’t beat DK aiding & abetting my opponents like this (and the very steep rake with no rakeback… don’t get me started on that), then who can???

    Now, I say this to support that, but also I know that rotogrinders is tightly associated with Draft Kings & that this might come down from the forum if I don’t. And please don’t get me twisted here. I’ve listened to some of the Grinders Live shows & I think that they’re great. Al & CSURAM88 & DraftCheat among others just seem like really good guys. This is nothing against you. I’m down 83% of my roll, and no offense to you guys, but I’m the best MLB player in DFS. I just don’t have the roll (yet) to prove it…

    So a noob on this other forum tonight asks “What do you guys think of Anthony Rendon tonight?” Here’s what I told him:

    “Regarding Rendon, he’s a mixed bag with very high ratings in some categories & very high concerns in others.

    It starts with his college career where he set records for his hitting & was an elite defender, but his college career was also marred by injuries. 2 injuries to his right ankle (ligament tears & a break). He also had shoulder issues in his throwing shoulder. Still he was the #1 prospect in the 2011 draft, but concerns over the shoulder slid him down to the Nats at 6th overall.

    The same trend continued in the minors. Where he suffered a hairline fracture to his other ankle one week into his first full season in the minor leagues. He rebounded with a strong performance in the Arizona Fall League later that year. However, the shoulder issues flared up again & caused him to spend some time at 2b (that and a guy named Ryan Zimmerman playing 3b for the Nats).

    He got his shot last year with Espinosa playing so poorly at 2b. Rendon’s strength is his hitting profile, which is an excellent eye, not only establishing the strike zone but pitch recognition also & he has strong, quick hands that allow him to stay back on the ball & cover the entire hitting zone allowing him to make solid contact on virtually all pitch types. He was near the top of contact rate last year & has exhibited an outstanding line drive rate throughout his college & pro career. Which is a good thing, b/c with his ankle injuries, he’s not legging out a lot of groundballs.

    Last year, wasn’t a success though. Somewhat unexplicitly his walk rate dropped (nearly in half) from his minor league rates, which were outstanding (as I said the great eye & discipline at the plate). He led division 1A in walks as a junior at Rice. So that I would expect to come back. Maybe just rookie nervousness that ate away at his usual approach, no one but Rendon can really say. The other thing that was a little concerning was the lack of power. Granted fly ball rates & distances suggest he’ll establish moderate home run rates later in his career (possibly as soon as the 2nd half of this year, although 2015 seems more realistic). It’s fair to say that he profiles more as a Billy Butler Freese(player-profile)”:/players/David_Freese-10441/Chris Johnson type than a David Wright Longoria(player-profile)”:/players/Evan_Longoria-10426/“Matt Holliday(player-profile)”:/players/Matt_Holliday-10511 type.

    Also of great concern was the defense he displayed at 3b. It was a small sample size, but still extremely poor & the shoulder issues suggest it’s an indication of things to come. The ankles limit mobility & 2nd base is the most likely landing spot for him long term (if not a DH/part time 1b as Butler has become for the Royals). Another concern was a decline vs RHP from AA/AAA ball to the majors. Rendon actually had a higher OPS vs RHP in 2013 at AA/AAA, but his splits last year with the big club were vs LHP 830 OPS & vs RHP 682 OPS.

    So, with all of that in mind, I don’t like the Rendon play for 3 reasons tonight. A) he could be replaced in the 7th inning on for a defensive or baserunning replacement B) the game in Miami has a slight chance of being suspended due to rain an hour & a half or so into the game and C) He’s facing a RHP. On the plus side, he’s leading off & facing a RHP with a very low K rate, so you like Rendon’s prospects when he puts the ball in play with his excellent Line Drive rate. Yet, it’s still a stay away for me tonight. In fact, I’m taking a wait & see approach with Rendon for the next several weeks. He’s a young player with a pedigree off the charts, but very serious concerns as well.”

    If you guys take this down & Draft Kings continues to do this, I will be forced to start posting my research for everyone. Again no offense to you guys, but your strategy articles are very basic. I really believe that you leave the good stuff for your own lineups, which is smart. You want to make people better & get traffic to your site, but you don’t want to make them so good that they will wipe out your edge in contests. That’s what will happen if I start a site. I’ll go deeper than that on players. There won’t be any money to be made in MLB contests & the sites will scale back the contests that they offer dramatically.

  • jlowery73

    2012 DDC Main Event Champion

    • 2014 FAFC Finalist

    • x3

      2015 FACFC Finalist

    Easily the longest post in the history of RG, it looks like a thesis paper from college.

    That being said, I do agree that some sites seem to be making the game a lot easier for all parties involved and I don’t care for the changes either. If you spend $$ to enter contests, then you should be able to do the necessary research to help set a decent lineup.

    I saw on DS chat the other day where multiple people were complaining that either a)a late scratch was still listed with a blue S as a starter and b) one lineup was already out BUT that starting lineup wasn’t defined yet on DS.

    Hell, if this continues my wife is going to start playing baseball and she knows virtually nothing about it. DFS baseball is certainly getting A LOT easier to play on some sites for those that might not be as skilled or knowledgeable in the sport.

  • thepr0phet

    Hey it is long, but you just had to read it. I had to proofread it, Lol!

    I don’t know this for a fact, but I think that the sites are so leveraged that they’re desperate to get new players. They’ll do practically anything. I think the reason they don’t offer rakeback is because they can’t afford to, unless you’re bringing a new player to the site & then they can only pay you his rakeback. So it works like a pyramid scheme in that regard.

    What they don’t realize is they’re disenfranchising the people that LOVE fantasy sports. The die-hards. It’s like foolishly dropping 5 bills at a club trying to impress that supermodel that barely notices you’re alive. When you could be spending the night with that cute girl who works the register at Starbucks & is always making eyes at you. Seriously, wisen up DK!

    I don’t want to go into great detail about this now (I’ll just say that I only knew 2 players that were better than me at MLB DFS & they both work for Major League teams this year). So, if I can’t beat MLB contests something is very wrong. The thing is with the rake so high & no rakeback there’s just a very, very small edge to be had here. Any help to your opponents at all is a backbreaker.

  • bmlenox

    I’m aware of the legality of the ‘once a payout and entry # structure is set, its illegal to change’. How do player fields not follow this same rule? I’m all for sending emails, posting banners warning cancelled games, but removing players so they cant even be selected is completely ridiculous.

  • thepr0phet

    Couldn’t agree more. Draft Kings is just overzealous here. And keep in mind, back in January when Draft Day had the big banner sign warning players about the Det/Atl game cancellation (but they left the players in their menu), some of my opponents still picked Hawnks & Pistons players! Give a fish a chance to make a mistake & he’ll make it.

    Maybe this is too harsh, but removing those players so no mistakes can be made & everyone is equal. That’s communism. Hell, the whole reason DFS is legal & gambling is not is because it’s a game of skill. Part of that skill is research the weather. Did you know that for every .18 change in air density a fastball is 1 mph faster? That’s my knowledge Draft Kings. Stop giving away what I know (you bleeps! Lol).

  • thepr0phet

    No, I can’t say that I do. What is the significance of the quoted text & sosofishy? Just curious.

  • sabresrock29

    If a game is ppd or cancelled the players should stay in the field. There’s a thing called research and rotoworld. If you don’t use it and miss out, your fault as cancellations were announced well before. Don’t give the people who are too lazy an advantage draftkings.

  • db730

    RotoGrinders Media Director

    • 615

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2016 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    • 2016 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    A few things. Only edit I made on your post was the end because it wasn’t necessary. We are not going to pull important topics and I think you definitely touch up on something regarding DFS sites providing TOO MUCH information. Unfortunately you went on diatribe during the 2nd half of your post and probably lost most of the readers. I’m not going to edit that, but if I were you I would go back and delete that part because it has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    I actually agree with your point. Emailing people about rained out games and pulling players from the player pools is a bit of a slippery slope in my eyes. It didn’t bother me so much with NBA because those things are EXTREMELY rare and qualifies more as a fluke than anything else, but for MLB these happen quite often and are absolutely part of the strategy in building a team.

    I am all for helping new players and making sure they have a great experience, but we have gotten to this highly successful point in time and have NOT been spoon feeding that kind of information to the masses so I don’t really see the need to start.

    If you have followed me for a while, you know I am a BIG fan of the lineup information being shown the sites as I think it’s a tremendous convenience for both new players & experienced ones, but e-mails, push notification, etc seem like a little much. If we don’t draw the line somewhere what is next? …for NFL are people going to be notified when someone has an inactive player on their roster?

  • thepr0phet

    db730,

    Sorry, I may have been a little paranoid. Obviously, I’ve emailed Draft Kings about this already & their response has basically just been a polite version of “That’s the way we rizz-oll. Deal with it.” And with the basic purpose of this site being to draw income from Draft Kings, I feared that saying anything negative about them would cause the post to come down. Aside from this issue, Draft Kings is actually my favorite site for the easy navigation & registration.

    The last thing that I want to do is give away my knowledge, but one way or another I’m going to find a way to monetize it.

    I would like people to follow me on twitter, but I understand if that violates some form of self-promotion. I don’t want to promote myself, though. That’s one reason my twitter account is private. I just want Draft Kings to hear this message LOUD & CLEAR, and I want them to cut it out.

  • BernieKozar

    The OP is actually pretty short compared to the posts we’ve had to deal with on other forums.

    What is critical to understand that what is in the best interest of the site, is not always what is in the best interest of the experienced players.

    The sites need new accounts and new players to be moderately successful early. Player retention is so critical for site longevity right now, that the sites are going to do everything they can to keep new players winning and having a good overall experience.

  • JDub07

    Yeah that is pathetic. Let people figure stuff out for themselves. Some people could have drafted earlier in the day for tournaments when ALL the players were available to draft and then some other person might have drafted at 5:30 PM and a 100 players are not even available to draft.

    THAT IS A JOKE—- YOU CANNOT ALTER THE PLAYER FIELD IN THE MIDDLE OF A CONTEST. Are you kidding me? Next thing you know DraftKings is going to start adding players in the middle of drafting time for contests.

    The lack of consistency and just making up rules as we go is a joke.

  • thepr0phet

    @BernieKozar said…

    What is critical to understand that what is in the best interest of the site…

    That’s actually not critical at all. I’m not a consultant for the sites. I’m a player investing my money into contests, not theirs.

    Like you’ve heard me say before, “If the sites don’t baby the noobs, they’ll leave & that hurts everybody in the long run… Yeah, yeah, yeah, I say to that”

    Aside from the fact that I’m suppose to lose money now to make it later (if & when that comes). I don’t think you read the part of my OP that says, FanDuel doesn’t baby players & which site has the most players? I 1000% disagree that it’s necessarily to coddle players in order to get them to stay & play on the site. If they’re that temperamental, then they’ll find another reason to leave the site. This is a panic move by Draft Kings; it’s that simple.

  • JDub07

    This is their rule…

    “The Player Pool will consist of all MLB players expected to be playing on a given game day. Any missing players will not be added to the pool once DraftKings starts offering contests for that day. Player salaries will also not change once DraftKings starts offering contests for that day.”

    Need to add the caveat…. “We reserve the right to randomly remove players from the player pool up until lock of the first game.”

  • emac

    I don’t mind the warnings, but removing players from the pool seems pretty similar to adding players to the pool (except in reverse of course).

  • louiescards

    DK KoTH winner

    I am not a fan of them editing the field. If you want to put a warning on the site fine, but changing the field of players is iffy at best.

    As for the emails I don’t like it. I understand making the game easier (player cards and the like) but at what point is it too far. I think this is that point. If you don’t realize your players are in danger of not playing or have already been postponed you probably should not be playing for money. DK is killing an edge that people who put in the time deserve to have.

  • hambazaza

    RG Blog Program Manager, 2014 RG Party Beer Pong Champion

    • Blogger of the Month

    • Beer Pong Champion

    is there proof that they actually changed the fields? or did they release new games with different fields?

    does anybody have screen shots? can we get more than one person who is paranoid the site will take down his post to corroborate on this accusation? can DK come on here and tell us “yes we did this” or “no we categorically deny this accusation”?

    I’m skeptical about this at best, the emails i know happen because i believe i got one too. but its ok, i prefer not having the emails, but it is what it is. can’t tell them how to run their business.

  • cb35

    2013 FFFC Finalist, 2013 DFFC Finalist

    • 2013 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    yeah if you edit a player pool – void all contests. On Site Warnings is fine. Emails/push notifications is pushing it but I’m not opposed.

    Golden rule in daily fantasy sports – never edit a player pool for any reason even if there is glaring mistake. If necessary, you must void all contests and start over. Simple as that.

  • Shawners

    I’m OK with an email alert, but they should not edit their pool of players.

  • Galante118

    • Blogger of the Month

    @louiescards said…

    I am not a fan of them editing the field. If you want to put a warning on the site fine, but changing the field of players is iffy at best.

    As for the emails I don’t like it. I understand making the game easier (player cards and the like) but at what point is it too far. I think this is that point. If you don’t realize your players are in danger of not playing or have already been postponed you probably should not be playing for money. DK is killing an edge that people who put in the time deserve to have.

    +1

    -Editing the player pool shouldn’t happen, ever.
    -Emails, not a fan of at all, but not as bad.
    -Warning on the site, fine. Still not crazy about it, but ok.

  • JDub07

    I don’t have a screen shot but they 100% edited the player pool and removed PPD players from the field after they were already in that contest at some point earlier in the day. If they try to come in and deny that it would be laughable.

  • Ross

    @rtiedemann6 said…

    There is some merit to what has been said, but I could do without the self-promotion.

    100% agree here. The op was fine for about the first two paragraphs then he went off about nonsense for the rest of the book he wrote.

    I think its a huge mistake by DK to remove players any time after a contest is open for registration and hopefully they will realize why it is a problem and explain what they were thinking.

    I’m fine with highlighting the players in ppd games in red on the lineups page, it makes it easier for people with multiple lines to get them out.
    I also agree the email notifications are a bit much.

  • thepr0phet

    @hambazaza said…

    is there proof that they actually changed the fields? or did they release new games with different fields?

    This is an excerpt from an email that I received on Monday from Jeremy at Draft Kings (Who by the way is a great guy. He just works for a company that is making a terrible decision) Also, the reason this email is from Monday is because it was part of a chain that I started with them last week. They did the same thing twice last week, when the Mil/Phi game was called & one other that I can’t think of at the moment.

    “Prophet,

    When we remove a game from a particular contest (for what ever reason) we remove the game so users whom have yet to draft will not select them. Back on January 29th (for the game you’re referring to) we did not have the functionality in place to change the players status to “canceled or Postponed” (that made them outlined in Red) as we do now. At that time, we had to remove that game from our contest lobby and notify each individual user of the contest/game change who had already drafted a player from that game. We took all the proper steps to notify our users for corrective action regarding the unusual circumstance.

    The next you think you see something like this, please provide screen shots for further review.

    Thank You,

    Jeremy

    Customer Experience Lead
    DraftKings Inc.”

  • thepr0phet

    @rtiedemann6 said…

    This forum post is sage words from the self-proclaimed best MLB player in DFS down 83% of his roll. There is some merit to what has been said, but I could do without the self-promotion. If you think you’re better than everyone, play STL, Smizz, CSU, NaturalSlugger, et al H2H $535 and put your money where your mouth is.

    I really don’t want to go down that path. The focus is not about me. The only reason I said that is because if I’m just some losing whiner, than why wouldn’t Rotogrinders take down this post? They make a lot of money from Draft Kings. I don’t make them a dime. That’s an easy call on who to side with.

    But if I say, “Hey, please just keep this up & let the forum members decide on it. And if you show me that respect, I won’t go squarely up against you.” Then maybe I have a shot at this staying up. At least that was my thinking at the time when I posted that. db730 has been very cool, so that wasn’t even necessary. It’s my first time posting here, though, so I didn’t really know what to expect. And as I said, all of the guys from here that I have ever interacted with have been great. So, I definitely don’t mean to take shots at anyone or give off that impression.

  • JDub07

    Unusual Circumstance?

    Their are rainouts nearly every week throughout the baseball season.

  • Varncass

    CBB/CFB Contributor

    • 169

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2014 RG Season Champion: CBB

    FWIW,

    I hate all 3 things – On-Site Notifications, E-mails, and changing player databases with changing player databases being the absolute WORST and bordering on sketchy if that has actually happened.

    What ever happened to letting the players do their own research? If you play, and you don’t realize a game is cancelled or in danger of being cancelled in MLB, you risk losing; it’s as simple as that. Cancellations and postponements are a part of sports and a part of the game.

    Basically, I feel as if the sites are doing the research work for the players now.

    You would never see PokerStars providing players with a HUD on on everyone they sit with at the table with their entire hand histories.

  • sethayates

    DK did remove players from the pool after the games were officially cancelled. I’m positive they wouldn’t deny this. I’m not sure how I feel about it though. The idea of having a player pool is that you are selecting players who are going to play that day. If you are going to include players who will not be playing why don’t we just have every team and every player listed? It can be your job to figure out who is playing today. That sounds pretty annoying right?

    The fact is that most people playing on DK already knew the games were cancelled so why leave the players in? That just makes it annoying. Say you want to create a last minute lineup on DK to take advantage of some overlay. That is a heck of a lot easier without extra players clogging up the pool. My only complaint is that if you are removing rainout games why not also remove players declared out for the year?

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