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  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    On behalf of DraftKings, we are proud to announce our newly created Community team. Our group was formed to listen, engage, and advocate for the player community at large while championing our industry leading commitment to a world class game experience. We are here to represent your feedback inside the walls of DraftKings, because your ideas can help us deliver an increasingly better experience for all players. You can read our introductory post here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/draftkings-cm-is-now-on-rotogrinders-2496208

    Now it’s your chance – what would you like to know? Do you have a suggestion you would like to share? We will do our best to answer all honest and respectful questions you post in this thread, in turn we hope to help players like you have a better understanding of how the world’s largest fantasy sports ecosystem works. Please allow us some time before responding to your questions and comments, you deserve well thought out answers – and that takes time.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    I’ve said it before, but keep in mind guys, DK may not be doing what us ‘Grinders’ want, but how do we as a community know they aren’t doing what the general public wants?

    I’ve met plenty of people throughout the last year or so who are looking to hit that big prize and don’t care about taking 10th. I totally get as a daily player (someone who is grinding it every day) we would want more balanced payouts, but does the average guy out there, who DK is continuing to try and attract really care?

    I’m not siding with anyone here, but sometimes we look at things with tainted glasses. I like more balanced payouts as I’m a grinder, but is it really what is wanted in the whole big picture by the millions out there who don’t visit RG?

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    I understand where you’re coming from, but I’m only here arguing for my own personal preferences. If other people have other preferences, it’s on them to speak up. This thread is here to ask RG members what they want, not for us to guess what others want…

    I don’t really understand the casual player who is excited by the prospect of turning $5 into $100,000 but not by the prospect of turning $5 into $50,000. My hope would be that if DK weighs that casual player’s small loss of excitement against the sustainability of grinders like us continuing to play GPPs, they will realize that flatter payout structures are the best way forward. Or at least mix it up so we don’t end up with slates where every single one of the large GPP has a terrible payout structure.

  • mambaland

    @bhdevault said...

    I’ve met plenty of people throughout the last year or so who are looking to hit that big prize and don’t care about taking 10th. I totally get as a daily player (someone who is grinding it every day) we would want more balanced payouts, but does the average guy out there, who DK is continuing to try and attract really care?

    they have not come in 10th 2 points of the top prize yet either

  • KindGuy

    @hendog said...

    I understand where you’re coming from, but I’m only here arguing for my own personal preferences. If other people have other preferences, it’s on them to speak up. This thread is here to ask RG members what they want, not for us to guess what others want…

    I don’t really understand the casual player who is excited by the prospect of turning $5 into $100,000 but not by the prospect of turning $5 into $50,000. My hope would be that if DK weighs that casual player’s small loss of excitement against the sustainability of grinders like us continuing to play GPPs, they will realize that flatter payout structures are the best way forward. Or at least mix it up so we don’t end up with slates where every single one of the large GPP has a terrible payout structure.

    Even $25,000 to first would attract the casual grinder I would think.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @hendog said...

    This thread is here to ask RG members what they want, not for us to guess what others want…

    Very good point!

    I guess I am more talking about those who claim nobody out there wants certain prize structures. However, again, very fair point.

  • Zieg30

    @hendog said...

    Or at least mix it up so we don’t end up with slates where every single one of the large GPP has a terrible payout structure.

    I agree with everything else you’ve said, so I won’t repeat it, but I also want to highlight this line of yours.

    I have no doubt that there are plenty of DFS’ers who prefer very lottery-style top-heavy payouts. I think they’re misguided, but I understand why they prefer what they prefer and I accept that they exist.

    That said, there is also clearly a population of DFS’ers who prefer slightly flatter payouts at the top (and not FLAT, we are not talking 1-5%, but 10% or so). The issue is that DK almost exclusively provides lottery-style payouts, and almost never provides payouts those with different preferences enjoy. In the occasional small GPP DK will provide different options, but never in their primary GPP of the night.

    That’s a problem. And it’s really frustrating. DK is not willing to just mix it up, OCCASIONALLY, as hendog suggests, to throw a bone to its other loyal users.

    I’ve had this issue in the NHL over the last year, where DK refused to EVEN ONCE make it’s primary GPP of the night a $4 20-max GPP (and thus we NHL DFS’ers were deprived from taking advantage of the new 20-max policy throughout the season after it was implemented).

    It’s piss poor customer service and piss poor treatment of its more engaged users.

    Just have one primary GPP a week (e.g. a $100k, $200k, or 300k GPP) with a 10% top prize and 10% to 10th. Call it a Flatter Friday Foul Out. (Maybe sometimes make it a $4 20-max entry even, though I digress).

    These simple fixes would go a long way to show that DK actually cares to keep some of us playing on their site.

  • DoubleTime

    • 2016 King of Summer: August

    The $10k Hybrid for PGA: 8% to 1st, 1% to 10th, 2x min-cash. SOLID.

    The $30k Short Game: 5% to 1st, 0.16% to 10th, 2x min-cash. BS.

    One pays 20% of the field. One pays 26% of the field.

    Fixing your structures isn’t hard. Pay no more than 20% of the field and everything will fall into place (also no more than 10% to 1st because this isn’t the lottery). Now just offer 1 big GPP with this structure and I can stop posting! Make it a #skillgame again.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @elementasrat said...

    Even $25,000 to first would attract the casual grinder I would think.

    I actually had a call with the DK reps to discuss some of my thoughts a week or two ago and they claim the above doesn’t work for casual players. That is the hardest thing for me to understand but apparently casual players will enter contests with $100k to first but will not enter if that drops to say $25k. I understand they want the chance to win “life changing money,” but it’s not like $25k is something to sneeze at for most people.

    So to me the answer, and what I suggested to them, is what some others above have mentioned. There needs to be more “hybrid” style GPP’s and just a better mix of GPP’s in general. You can still have large, top heavy contests at times. But all the main GPP’s every day do not need to be setup this way. Mix it up. Also, I know some people want single entry contests. Some like 3 max. Some like to max enter. Most grinders want flatter pay structures. Casuals want higher top prizes. Grinders want 2x min cash. Casuals probably don’t pay attention to that but like to “just cash.” And the list goes on. You cannot make everyone happy. But why not offer more contests that gives everyone a little bit of what they want?

    For example, instead of 20-25% to first, drop that to around 15-16%. It’s not quite 10% as some would want, but better than 20%+. Make some featured contests 5, 10 or even 20 entries max. It does not completely appease the single entry crowd but it’s much better than competing against 150 lineups from a bunch of high volume pros. Instead of paying out 25+% of the field, drop that to 22-23%. It’s not quite in that 18-20% range that I’d like to see, but it’s also not the crazy 26-27% of the field. Now you have a few more dollars to pay the top 10-20 spots properly. 2x min cash should be standard in my opinion, but if you need to shuffle a few more dollars to the top, make that 1.75-1.8x. It’s still better than the 1.5x we see far too often now. At the end of the call, they did say they plan on going a little more in this direction at times and creating these type of contests in the future. I just hope they can be start to be “featured” and not just a token $10-20k contest. Just my thoughts and I appreciate that the DK reps are back on these forums and listening to user feedback, even if it is not always what we want to hear.

    Oh, I also told them that Showdown contests are the worst thing to happen to DFS. Unfortunately they do not agree and those contests are not going anywhere. I expect to see Thursday Night Football, Sunday Night Football and Monday Night Football to all be featured in Showdown this coming season. The “Primetime” slates will be much smaller than they were previously would be my guess, if they push them at all.

  • Zieg30

    @DoubleTime said...

    The $10k Hybrid for PGA: 8% to 1st, 1% to 10th, 2x min-cash. SOLID.

    The $30k Short Game: 5% to 1st, 0.16% to 10th, 2x min-cash. BS.

    There is a sweet spot here that DK just ignores. 10% is a good number going to first. 10% of first going to tenth is a good number.

    That $10k is marginally TOO flat, especially for such a small tournament, but, frankly, I’d be content with 8% going to first of a $300k GPP.

  • bigez952

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    That is the hardest thing for me to understand but apparently casual players will enter contests with $100k to first but will not enter if that drops to say $25k.

    As crazy and dumb as it is DK is right and the true casual player who plays 5-10 times a month mainly only cares about what 1st place plays. A lot of my friends that I know that play Draft kings are in this category where they have no intention of grinding out a profit and really don’t care about min cashing. They treat DK like playing the lottery or hitting a 10 team parlay. All they care about is the life changing money on top and will play every single millionaire maker offered but won’t play a decent structured contest because if they win it only would pay them 50K. Granted nobody I know has never even come close to winning a GPP so this drives me absolutely insane that people think this way.

    All that being said I am sure my friends are not the only ones in the world who think of DK as being entertainment and similar to the lottery. I have no clue what % of players only play once or twice a week vs. the ones who play every single day but just my guess is I would think in terms of dollars spent the guys playing every single day would have to out weigh the casuals maybe playing $50 to $100 a month.

    It is nice to see they added you to the call as I agree with pretty much everything you have ever said on here in terms of proper contest set ups and prize structures. It would be nice if this was more the norm and they ran special top heavy lotteries maybe a couple times a week for the every day sports and keep the millionaire makers for NFL and PGA majors with the remaining contests around those being a good structure. It is promising with the changes they are making and pulling people like you in to get feedback that as least something will change so there will be at least a contest or two every slate that is good for the everyday grinder while still keeping the lottery’s for the ones who want that.

  • caleibold

    Today’s MLB mini-max filled a good 9 hours ahead of time… again. I’m happy to see them do this kind of contest and really hoping to see them grow it soon. Been patiently waiting for something like this since they turned the $3 and $4 150-max tourneys into $6 and $8 about a year ago.

  • britdevine

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Please start upping the $1 150 entry prizeool, this should be at least a 15k nearly every day with a large slate

  • btwice80

    @Zieg30 said...

    Just have one primary GPP a week (e.g. a $100k, $200k, or 300k GPP) with a 10% top prize and 10% to 10th. Call it a Flatter Friday Foul Out.

    Oh well, I guess I give up. If I’m GPPing every day, I want consistent, similar daily structures, and MLB variance is too high to switch up my play once a week. So I’ll just stick to the single/limited entry contests. DK apparently isn’t hurting for the lost entry fees (over $30K and counting) from me that I would be paying in addition to my single entry.

    And I don’t understand those in this thread that claim to hate the top-heavy contests, but then still play them with just a few entries instead of more that they would play otherwise. If someone truly hates the top-heavy stuff and is only going to play a few entries, why not stick to the limited entry contests where you’ll get way more bang for your buck?

  • UBP

    Given this week’s PGA GPP offerings, I’m not even sure why this thread still exists. Tons of good ideas in here, yet this is the worst week I’ve seen (casual grinder). I wish I’d have checked the contests before I started my research, as I could have just saved my time. There is not a single attractive GPP to play (properly pointed out above by Hendog, Doubletime, Brit, et al).

    All the GPPs that are appropriately sized have terrible payouts, and the SE/3 max contests that could have decent payouts are too small. With a solid tournament field (including Tiger), this would have been a great week, for example, to make the $150 3 max Driving Range a $100k contest. Or add $5-10k to the $20 3-max Scramble. And the only halfway decent sized 20 max offering (the 50k birdie) has a horrible payout structure and is also the first time I’ve seen the rake cross the 16% threshold (I could be, and probably am wrong on that). The daily MLB $2 Tablesetter 20 max on most days is a great structure – can we get that for 4 day PGA?

    It’s unfortunate too, as I feel they are starting to get the player pricing right lately. The ideas for contest sizing/payouts structures in this thread are great, it would be nice if DK would start implementing them. Just my $.02. That being said, I’ll see you all in the 50k birdie……..

  • hendog

    • 2017 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @btwice80 said...

    And I don’t understand those in this thread that claim to hate the top-heavy contests, but then still play them with just a few entries instead of more that they would play otherwise. If someone truly hates the top-heavy stuff and is only going to play a few entries, why not stick to the limited entry contests where you’ll get way more bang for your buck?

    Personally, when I’m mass entering (which I mainly do for NFL and have recently experimented with PGA) my process goes like this. I sort the lobby by size and go one by one, asking:

    • Is the right kind of contest? I skip double-ups, multipliers, winner take all, satellites, and sometimes qualifiers
    • How many entries does my bankroll support? This is where the structure comes in. I feel my bankroll can support 150 $5 entries in a large contest with a reasonable payout structure. In a huge contest with a terrible structure, I might judge that I can support 10 entries. If I had a 10 times bigger bankroll I would feel like I could handle the variability and I would still consider maxing it despite my reservations of the structure. Obviously entry fee comes into play here too. For a $50 contest my bankroll can support far fewer entries of course. I don’t have a formula for this or anything but I go off my intuition about how much variance the payout structure creates.
    • Have I already hit the max dollar amount I want to risk on this slate/week? This hasn’t happened with PGA but during NFL season I will typically hit that number before reaching the bottom of the contest list.
    • Then finally, I max out at 1 entry per 1000 entries in the field. This is also just a personal choice but I don’t want to be more than 0.1% of the field in a GPP. Ideally I think i would like to lower this to 0.05% or 0.01% but there aren’t enough big GPPs to support any meaningful volume at that rate.

    So, the reason I dislike the top-heavy contests is that I can’t justify entering too many lineups in them. But I can still justify entering a few. It doesn’t take away from an entry into another contest, at least not in PGA.

  • Zieg30

    @btwice80 said...

    Oh well, I guess I give up. If I’m GPPing every day, I want consistent, similar daily structures, and MLB variance is too high to switch up my play once a week. So I’ll just stick to the single/limited entry contests. DK apparently isn’t hurting for the lost entry fees (over $30K and counting) from me that I would be paying in addition to my single entry.

    And I don’t understand those in this thread that claim to hate the top-heavy contests, but then still play them with just a few entries instead of more that they would play otherwise. If someone truly hates the top-heavy stuff and is only going to play a few entries, why not stick to the limited entry contests where you’ll get way more bang for your buck?

    I don’t see why there can’t be consistent inconsistency (e.g. every M-W-F there’s a GPP of one type and every T-T-S-S, there’s a GPP of another) etc.

    In any event, I hate top-heavy contests, but I have little interest in playing small contests, period. I don’t want to face a situation where my entry would have won $XX in the primary GPP but I didn’t enter it. Thus, I typically enter all my entries in the primary GPP of the night (if it’s in the $3-20 range), but would simply enter MORE if they had a semi-decent payout structure. There’s no internal contradiction there.

  • britdevine

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Looks like Wednesday is another poor showing for the $1 150 as it’s just a 10k yet again when there is no NBA.

    I want nothing more than to give you my $150 every night in this GPP DK, but you make it much harder than it should be by keeping the prizepool so small that it fills 9 hours before lock.

  • bigez952

    @britdevine said...

    Looks like Wednesday is another poor showing for the $1 150 as it’s just a 10k yet again when there is no NBA.

    I want nothing more than to give you my $150 every night in this GPP DK, but you make it much harder than it should be by keeping the prizepool so small that it fills 9 hours before lock.

    They will probably make it big again for a small Thursday slate so it overlays again and they can say “see I told you no one wanted it bigger”

  • sutogame

    @britdevine said...

    Looks like Wednesday is another poor showing for the $1 150 as it’s just a 10k yet again when there is no NBA.

    I want nothing more than to give you my $150 every night in this GPP DK, but you make it much harder than it should be by keeping the prizepool so small that it fills 9 hours before lock.

    All of the contest for Wed main slate are pretty bad the 8 is 10K to first and 33 entry is 30K.
    NO THANK YOU

  • caleibold

    They could have filled the $1 150 that overlayed last Thursday pretty much every single day since. Filled two more 10k’s yesterday with hours to spare.

  • Zieg30

    Ugh. In NHL the Sniper is 10% to 1st, 10% of that to 10th, but the primary GPP of the night is a whopping 25% to first, and 10% to FOURTH. First place gets $10,000, and tenth place gets $100. That’s disgusting, yet I’m still joining it with a few entries. If i had the prize payout structure for the top ten of the Sniper, I’d be doubling or tripling my entries.

  • TeamTwerk

    What in the world is with the awful sizing of MLB contests? Is there nobody at Draftkings that notices these things? The main big field $4- $8 tournament should never fill 1.5 hours in advance. That seems like such a big mistake but it happens all the time at MLB. I wonder if you’ve already turned off all the potential NBA crossover players with your garbage tiny tournaments.

  • bhdevault

    • Lead Moderator

    • Blogger of the Month

    @TeamTwerk said...

    with your garbage tiny tournaments.

    I really wish you guys could just have civil discussions without being so disrespectful.

    I get that this is the internet. But keep on bashing instead of discussing and the DK reps could take their ball and go home, if you know what I mean.

    Let’s keep that in mind and make your voice heard, but with some respect, is all I ask. I personally want them to continue posting here.

  • jeramy576

    @bhdevault said...

    I really wish you guys could just have civil discussions without being so disrespectful.

    I get that this is the internet. But keep on bashing instead of discussing and the DK reps could take their ball and go home, if you know what I mean.

    Let’s keep that in mind and make your voice heard, but with some respect, is all I ask. I personally want them to continue posting here.

    It’s frustration. Constant sabotaging of MLB and zero attempts to rectify has become almost comical at this point.

  • britdevine

    • 2014 StarStreet MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    Thank you for the 30k $1 150 on Thursday, however first place is just 5% of the pool and you pay out 26% of the field.

    Now just get the prizepool straightened out and we have a good GPP…..

    Pay 20-21% of the field in this, redistribute that money to 1st-10th and you will get my 150 lineups every night I play.

    I’m not playing tomorrow as I feel the payout structure is simply not good enough and way too flat

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