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  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    On behalf of DraftKings, we are proud to announce our newly created Community team. Our group was formed to listen, engage, and advocate for the player community at large while championing our industry leading commitment to a world class game experience. We are here to represent your feedback inside the walls of DraftKings, because your ideas can help us deliver an increasingly better experience for all players. You can read our introductory post here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/draftkings-cm-is-now-on-rotogrinders-2496208

    Now it’s your chance – what would you like to know? Do you have a suggestion you would like to share? We will do our best to answer all honest and respectful questions you post in this thread, in turn we hope to help players like you have a better understanding of how the world’s largest fantasy sports ecosystem works. Please allow us some time before responding to your questions and comments, you deserve well thought out answers – and that takes time.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • whoisjohngalt420

    @humanash said...

    I’m also curious about the 2 different mini-max tounries, seems awkward to have it split up that way, but maybe I’m missing some benefit to the multiple tournies? Any insight/explanation would be much appreciated.

    I personally see a benefit in that it’s an opp to run out 300 unique line ups rather than just 150

  • texasrangersfan

    • 711

      RG Overall Ranking

    So if you get 10th out of 59,000 entries you are okay getting back half of your entry fees? 10th gets $75 as of right now.

  • humanash

    @whoisjohngalt420 said...

    I personally see a benefit in that it’s an opp to run out 300 unique line ups rather than just 150

    I could see that if the prizes were more top-heavy! Or maybe in the Classic format on a big slate that really highlighted the value of the volume of entries. Running 300 unique lineups in a Showdown format would make it extremely unlikely to get 1st prize in both, so you’re betting $300 to win $1500-2000. Even taking into account some extra winnings from the non-1st place entries, the best case is about an 8x payout. For comparison, the Quarter Jukebox 1st prize is 100x the total fees for max entries. Obviously a mini-max is going to have a lower percentage/multiplier payout vs a 20-max given the increased opportunities to win, but 8x vs 100x is drastic. Max entering the big $250k has a max payout of around 30x. I don’t think max entering both $1s makes sound game theory sense unless you’re playing a ton of money on the slate and have already maxed out many other tournies with better potential payouts. I think I have a lot better of a chance of getting 1st place in the big $250 with 150 entries 1 out of 30 times than I do of getting 1st in one of two mini-maxes with 300 entries 1 out of 8 times.

  • humanash

    @texasrangersfan said...

    So if you get 10th out of 59,000 entries you are okay getting back half of your entry fees? 10th gets $75 as of right now.

    100% fine with me. Could be $50 as far as I’m concerned. It’s still a great payout on a $1 bet, and like I said, if I’m betting $150 on it, I want to make $1500+. To me, there is absolutely no difference between being down $75 or up $75 after max-entering a mini-max.

  • steelbus

    I am sure this has been mentioned before but I am not going to go through 71 pages to see if it has. So here goes….

    I would like to see contests for similar skill leveled players. So as an example if my winning percentage is 30%, I’d like to be able to enter contests with players of my skill level (based on winning percentages). I would be, and I think others would be more likely to play more money if we thought we had a better chance of winning by being with players of a similar skill level.

  • texasrangersfan

    • 711

      RG Overall Ranking

    why not just have 1st get 50,000 and 2nd gets $0.00? Pretty much what it is now.

  • humanash

    @texasrangersfan said...

    why not just have 1st get 50,000 and 2nd gets $0.00? Pretty much what it is now.

    I look at some of the winner take all tournies. They are a little too extreme for me overall, like I said, I prefer the 20-25% range to first place. Fortunately for all of us, DK has a bunch of different formats. They have tons of 50/50s, triple ups, 10x boosters, H2Hs, and more structures that offer flat or flatter payouts. There are lots of options for flat payout structure tournies. If all the GPPs also become flat payouts, there will only be one style and no choices for the rest of us!

  • bigez952

    @humanash said...

    I look at some of the winner take all tournies. They are a little too extreme for me overall, like I said, I prefer the 20-25% range to first place. Fortunately for all of us, DK has a bunch of different formats. They have tons of 50/50s, triple ups, 10x boosters, H2Hs, and more structures that offer flat or flatter payouts. There are lots of options for flat payout structure tournies. If all the GPPs also become flat payouts, there will only be one style and no choices for the rest of us!

    They should split the GPP’s by having flatter payouts on single and 3 entry max contests. And the insanely top heavy ones for the 150 max. I agree with what you said that people that play 150 lineups want to play for 1st and take home a huge payday to cover the other 149 lineups they entered and didn’t win and all of the days that the 150 lineups didn’t hit.. Most players that play single entry contests are more content with trying to build a bankroll slowly through 3-5X cashes.

  • gravitymaze

    @bigez952 said...

    Most players that play single entry contests are more content with trying to build a bankroll slowly through 3-5X cashes.

    Very true. I have been around long enough to see players complain about 150 entry people and the response was play single entry contests. There just are not that many contests to go around.

    The thing I LOVE about mlb is that you can have player go 0 and still cash. MLB is so beautiful in this aspect that no one including Vegas, Sharks, etc has been able to take down the mlb beat the streak challenge yet.

    Now 150 lineups in nba n such is total bs.

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    We have two greatly divergent opinions here on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

    Opinion 1: Flatter payouts

    Why is your payout structures so top heavy? I love to play the $1 mini max, but the payout structure is terrible.

    Opinion 2: Top heavy payouts

    I LOVE the top-heavy payout structures for many reasons. I get frustrated by the $1 mini-max sometimes because I love to play them but I want the top prize to be 15%, 20% or even 25% of the total pool. I would max out the mini-maxes occasionally on a great slate if the prizes were more top-heavy. If I’m running 100+ entries into a tournament, I’m not trying to get back like 130% of my entry fees, I want to win the damn thing and have the payoff be as big as possible when I do.

    This is a topic that has been discussed many times in this thread, and we are always happy to share our point of view. The unbiased posts above are really great for us to see, we love to encounter your opinions. Opinions help us shape our decisions, and define our plans for the future. So keep it going!

    Do you prefer sharper payout structures that are heavy up top that encourage players to enter into the contests to help promote a larger prize pool, or do you prefer flatter payouts that have a less attractive first prize and pay out a larger component of the field at the risk of smaller prize pools? This is your opportunity, tell us your opinion and tell us why – we want to know!

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • whoisjohngalt420

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    Do you prefer sharper payout structures that are heavy up top that encourage players to enter into the contests to help promote a larger prize pool, or do you prefer flatter payouts that have a less attractive first prize and pay out a larger component of the field at the risk of smaller prize pools? This is your opportunity, tell us your opinion and tell us why – we want to know!

    Personally, I’d love to see an even smaller % of the field paid out in GPPs.. maybe even just top 8-10%.

  • gravitymaze

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    Do you prefer sharper payout structures that are heavy up top that encourage players to enter into the contests to help promote a larger prize pool, or do you prefer flatter payouts that have a less attractive first prize and pay out a larger component of the field at the risk of smaller prize pools? This is your opportunity, tell us your opinion and tell us why – we want to know!

    If the stigma about DFS is that is just a lottery game then top heavy only reinforces this. Once the powerball reaches 700 million or whatever then everyone wants to play a 2 dollar ticket. If that is your goal fine.

    Anyway most people complain about the top ten anyway. It’s always like 100,000 to first and 500 to 10th. Here I have a great experiment for you. Run a large contest with $500 to top 100 in the title and see how well it does.

  • hautalak

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    Do you prefer sharper payout structures that are heavy up top that encourage players to enter into the contests to help promote a larger prize pool, or do you prefer flatter payouts that have a less attractive first prize and pay out a larger component of the field at the risk of smaller prize pools? This is your opportunity, tell us your opinion and tell us why – we want to know!

    It seems as if you guys have been doing a little better job at structuring contests of late (the $1.11 MLB mini max was a great example of that IMO). I like the 2x min cash and ~ 10% up top as an option.

    I do prefer a flat structure but there are fine lines. I prefer to not have less than 10% up top. That seems to be more of the “norm” now but I remember some 5% contests of the past.

    As far as “top heavy” contests I get it and I have played some of them (but nothing typically more than 20% unless I win tickets). Speaking of tickets I know you would like more of your “featured” contests filled but I miss the days of “general” tickets to something like a “$3” PGA or whatever “smaller” featured contest. I know there are some for the “$5” specials but I think this would go a long way. It seems people like them and I play quite a few myself but there seems to be a few “too many” $0.10 satellites. I guess overlay doesn’t hurt as much there but I see a lot, especially with niche sports for this.

    Otherwise I commend DK compared to other platforms as it is what I play most frequently. There is the most variety and you are by far the most generous with rewards (especially for small time players like myself). Keep up the good work!

  • Shaketiller

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    Do you prefer sharper payout structures that are heavy up top that encourage players to enter into the contests to help promote a larger prize pool, or do you prefer flatter payouts that have a less attractive first prize and pay out a larger component of the field at the risk of smaller prize pools? This is your opportunity, tell us your opinion and tell us why – we want to know!

    – DraftKings Community Team

    This really depends on what type of player you are. If you are trying to make money over time, you want the flatter payouts. But I think many people, including myself, mean flatter payouts at the top and then bring up the bottom. So it wouldn’t change the 1st place payout. But less overall winners and a better payout structure in the top 10 of these huge field GPPs.

    The main reason I think DraftKings should do this is because winning the MiniMax, or finishing in the top 10 a few times, should allow a player to move up and max enter the next 150 entry GPP size. That is usually the $10/$11/$15 depending on the day. But in order to do that with a properly managed bankroll, a player needs 10-15k. And that is just really difficult to build as is because you basically have to win first place in the minimax multiple times.

    I would think DraftKings would want each 150 max entry contest to feed the one above it and with a better payout structure in the top 10, that would allow players to move up in entry fee size if they can finish in the top 10 a handful of times.

  • texasrangersfan

    • 711

      RG Overall Ranking

    I would prefer a flatter payout structure with a less percentage of entrants min cashing. I think 10% of the prize pool should go to first and 10% of 1st should go to 10th. Min cash should be 2 times the entry fee. The $9 NFL tournament (believe it is called the Slant) is the perfect payout structure.

  • whoisjohngalt420

    @texasrangersfan said...

    I would prefer a flatter payout structure with a less percentage of entrants min cashing. I think 10% of the prize pool should go to first and 10% of 1st should go to 10th. Min cash should be 2 times the entry fee.

    I like this. Curious to know what you think would be the optimal % paid out?

  • jsw3ent

    @whoisjohngalt420 said...

    Personally, I’d love to see an even smaller % of the field paid out in GPPs.. maybe even just top 8-10%.

    ^^THIS^^

  • bigez952

    The debate on optimal payout structures is a tough one since you will likely have a hard time getting any two people in a room to agree what that is and everyone has their own opinions. I think @Draftkings_CM intentionally asks the question of what of you think so you can see all the wide variety of options.

  • Shipmymoney

    • 59

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #7

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • x3

      2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2016 FanDuel MLB Playboy Mansion Finalist

    @texasrangersfan said...

    I would prefer a flatter payout structure with a less percentage of entrants min cashing. I think 10% of the prize pool should go to first and 10% of 1st should go to 10th. Min cash should be 2 times the entry fee. The $9 NFL tournament (believe it is called the Slant) is the perfect payout structure.

    this x10000000

  • mtdurham

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    We have two greatly divergent opinions here on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

    Opinion 1: Flatter payouts

    Why is your payout structures so top heavy? I love to play the $1 mini max, but the payout structure is terrible.

    Opinion 2: Top heavy payouts

    I LOVE the top-heavy payout structures for many reasons. I get frustrated by the $1 mini-max sometimes because I love to play them but I want the top prize to be 15%, 20% or even 25% of the total pool. I would max out the mini-maxes occasionally on a great slate if the prizes were more top-heavy. If I’m running 100+ entries into a tournament, I’m not trying to get back like 130% of my entry fees, I want to win the damn thing and have the payoff be as big as possible when I do.

    This is a topic that has been discussed many times in this thread, and we are always happy to share our point of view. The unbiased posts above are really great for us to see, we love to encounter your opinions. Opinions help us shape our decisions, and define our plans for the future. So keep it going!

    Do you prefer sharper payout structures that are heavy up top that encourage players to enter into the contests to help promote a larger prize pool, or do you prefer flatter payouts that have a less attractive first prize and pay out a larger component of the field at the risk of smaller prize pools? This is your opportunity, tell us your opinion and tell us why – we want to know!

    - DraftKings Community Team

    I would love to see ONE tournament per day that has a nominal entry fee (say something like ~$5-$25) where it is SINGLE ENTRY and either winner take all (or 50% to 1st, 30% to 2nd, 20% to 3rd)

    I just wanna make a small deposit of ~$100 a week or so and set one lineup even if i dont have time to research but be able to play for an interesting amount of money without being up against 99,000 professionally computer generated lineups with every freaking variant under the sun.

    If you ran ONE contest daily like that youd make a lot of people happy and you could have a season long standings where people compete for year end recognition and prizes…

    Like last week i didnt have time to research but i want to play golf… my choices are the $5 150-max where i basically have no chance whatsoever against guys who combinatorics will SMASH the equity in my one individual lineup….

    Or i can plop down $100 in the single entry and first place is a whopping $1,500? Thats just not enough risk/reward ratio to justify playing this stuff for fun if you dont have time to spend a few hours researching to build an optimal lineup…

    For casual players playing draftkings is kinda like popping a hallucinogenic pill. You hit the deposit button like a rat hitting the pellet feeder bar then pop the tab not knowing if itll be a good ride or a bad one, you just know if you dont do something fast before lineup lock youre entire evening is going to be miserable regardless of whether youre stuck at work or you have to head home to see what your wife threw on the Amex card this time.

    Everytime i hit submit on a lineup i say “We write our prayers on a little bomb, kiss it on the face and send it to God.”

    But the reality is i would never ask God for $1,500…. i need more than that to risk maternal lamination

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    The debate on optimal payout structures is a tough one since you will likely have a hard time getting any two people in a room to agree what that is and everyone has their own opinions. I think @Draftkings_CM intentionally asks the question of what of you think so you can see all the wide variety of options.

    bigez952 hit the nail right on the head! What we ask everyone to take away from this dialogue is that within our entire user population, there is a bevy of conflicting opinions and payout structures. Without a doubt, this topic is one of, if not the most polarizing topics in the DFS industry.

    And there are even divisive aspects of payout structures beyond the top-heavy vs flat structure argument we highlighted above. Users like whoisjohngalt420 may want less of the field paid out, while others would argue that’s a crazy idea, because they want more of the field paid out. texasrangersfan might feel as though 2X your entry fee should be the min cash, but we have heard many users argue that 1.5x is better because 2x affects the percent of the field paid out.

    We do see many similar recommendations made on this thread (we are looking at you 10% to 1st 1% to 10th lobbyists). For someone who aspires to make a living grinding the game, this may be the ideal structure – we are very aware of that. At the same time the vast majority of our users do not aspire to grind a living, in many ways their needs are more closely aligned with some of the biggest players in the game. The majority have their eyes on the big prize, they’re taking the long shot for a small investment (a player who enters 150 max entries in a $8 entry fee is likely to consider this a small investment for a large payout potential). Most of our users play DFS because they are looking to sweat a win that is substantial compared to their investment. That is why we offer the best prizes in the biggest contests, while also offering the most vibrant range of contest options. Understanding this dynamic may be one of the reasons why DraftKings became #1.

    We are not complacent. DK is in a constant cycle of evaluating and reevaluating community sentiment and entry data from which we create new payout curves and game models. After testing the market with these ‘prototype’ curves (our in-house terminology for payout structures because we look at the entire curve rather than just 1st, 10th, and min cash), we analyze performance and make adjustments in preparation for the next round of testing. We never stop testing, we are always evolving. We’re listening, we’re learning, and we’re adjusting in order to provide the best customers in DFS with the best product in DFS for “ALL” players. That is the real secret sauce, we are focussed on the needs of the player population collectively rather than the needs of any one single player.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • Pats7914

    • 77

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #57

      RG Tiered Ranking

    The current structures are ideal once you realize that the idea is to milk the cash out of a stagnant/shrinking DFS industry in order to fund the actual future of draftkings, namely sports betting.

  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    a stagnant/shrinking DFS industry

    While this is a common narrative, it really isn’t the case. DraftKings has seen tremendous growth year over year in DFS. All important key performance indicators are positive such as active users, total contests entered, player retention, first time depositors, entry fees, etc etc etc.

    DFS is alive and well, it is our foundation, and our DNA – and it is not stagnant or shrinking. We know that this is a common assumption of some DFS players because they don’t see the heavy investment in advertising that we made in 2015, yet the truth is we are having yet another banner year. Of course we cannot speak on behalf of other DFS companies, but for us the game is certainly not shrinking.

    Sometimes when we encounter this sentiment it is from DFS players who fear that we will replace DFS with Sportsbetting. They have nothing to worry about, our goal is to be the best in both spaces simultaneously – without compromising the integrity of either vertical. DFS and Sportsbetting will live side by side in some markets, and if the State of NJ is any example, we will see some new players come in via Sportsbook who start playing DFS. Our growth in Sportsbetting is a good thing, in turn we hope DFS players embrace our growth into this vertical because it will be good for DFS in the long run.

    - DraftKings Community Team

  • Zieg30

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    We do see many similar recommendations made on this thread (we are looking at you 10% to 1st 1% to 10th lobbyists).

    I am 100% on board with the fact that 10th place should be 10% of 1st place, but think the % going to 1st place should depend on the prize pool. For the NHL, with it’s common 25-40k prize pools, 10% is too low for a 1st place prize, and it should be closer to 20% (though again, with 10% of that going to 10th place). For the NBA, and other sports, with regular 400k+ prize pools, I think 10-13% going to 1st place makes sense.

    Ultimately, I do think fewer entrants should be paid, and first place should be paid less than what is typical, and the savings should be spread out primarily amongst the top 1% in payouts and then down the line.

  • gravitymaze

    @DraftKings_CM said...

    For someone who aspires to make a living grinding the game, this may be the ideal structure – we are very aware of that. At the same time the vast majority of our users do not aspire to grind a living, in many ways their needs are more closely aligned with some of the biggest players in the game.

    nevermind

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