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  • Shhhhhhhh

    @DSofM said...

    This is probably about the furthest thing from the truth in the current DFS ecosystem, and at least some of the reason why is the issue you laid out (Everybody is too solid).

    Maybe I should of tried to be more clear… but that is exactly my point. With every single H2H game being blanketed with pros it’s impossible to play them now. Hence my thoughts of a tier system to even things out and hopefully bring back what use to be a very reliable meathod to maintain a bankroll and lower variance.

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    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    Maybe I should of tried to be more clear… but that is exactly my point. With every single H2H game being blanketed with pros it’s impossible to play them now. Hence my thoughts of a tier system to even things out and hopefully bring back what use to be a very reliable meathod to maintain a bankroll and lower variance.

    It’s not too difficult to get the highest badge, there are surely lots of people in the lobby that aren’t that great at DFS. The issue lies in the fact that information is so easy to access now that it’s pretty difficult to have meaningful edge in cash games. So many people end up with the same/similar lineups (not talking about lineup sellers either). Like yesterday, Quintana was over 70%, Votto was over 40% and both Rosario and Escobar over 50%. So even having them wasn’t enough anymore. You’re basically flipping coins that your slightly different lineup with beat the other players lineup as half of your line is already cancelled out because some guys are so chalky. This differs in tournaments because of the payout structur. Game theory comes into play in this format and if you are any good at DFS you should probably just focus all your time into tourneys as the reward for being good will be much greater than trying to grind out a 55% (or whatever it is) win rate needed to break even (rake l0l) in cash games.

    The part of your argument where you should match with people in h2hs that are similar in skill does have some merit but that is a pretty difficult thing to measure. In my opinion they should eliminate their current format. If you want to play h2hs you sign up for X amount and then when the contest goes live you are randomly matched (only once) with other people in the player pool and there is no selection at all. This covers another issue to because winning players go “badge hunting” and try and scoop fish when they post games, but having them get randomly matched means this won’t happen (at least, not forcefully). I don’t know if this format would fly in high stakes and maybe at a certain BI level you keep the current format, but I think this would be a good idea for low stakes.

  • TeamTwerk

    Where did DK get the idea that nobody wants to play MLB on weekend mornings? Even the junky easily ignorable tournaments you have still fill 1-3 hours early on weekends over the past 3 years. Something is broken with your tournament sizing projection model.

  • rannas23

    I like the idea of the flatter payouts to pay more out to the other brackets, but also like where minimum winners are at around 20%- one of the reasons I left fanduel for draftkings. Here are a couple things I would love to see.

    - Have more and higher prize pool contests for the $20-$33 and up entries for short slates, turbo, and showdowns. Even on the main slates it can go downhill fast for smaIler fields and prize contests after your other promotional contests you advertise on the site. If your afraid to create a large payout for say a 6k-8k field because it won’t fill and DK will lose money…make it a rule and comment on the contest description it has to fill or a certain % has to fil to be active. A lot of times there is a big difference in the prize structure between an $8 contests with a huge field size and the $33 contests on some of these shorter slates. Just wish there were more options and prize contests with similar higher payouts for smaller fields if your willing to go into the next tier of entry costs.

    -Will there ever be an expansion of more sports included? Such as boxing, tennis.

    -On the Contests page would like to see listed how much you have put in for each contests when comparing what your winning.

    -For MMA, it appears there are always fight cards being canceled. Would there be a way of including a bench roster spot where you select 7 players but the highest 6 players on the roster gets counted for. That way if a fight gets cancelled at the last minute it might can help some…I know it’s not a solve all. Another thing could be if a fight is canceled…couldn’t these fighters be tagged with an “O” out and allow us to go in and swap them out….similar to a late swap.

    -Would like to see more 100-400 man contests. Again if you think these want fill and you lose money…apply a rule that a certain % or it must fill to be active.

  • Shhhhhhhh

    @DSofM said...

    It’s not too difficult to get the highest badge, there are surely lots of people in the lobby that aren’t that great at DFS. The issue lies in the fact that information is so easy to access now that it’s pretty difficult to have meaningful edge in cash games. So many people end up with the same/similar lineups (not talking about lineup sellers either). Like yesterday, Quintana was over 70%, Votto was over 40% and both Rosario and Escobar over 50%. So even having them wasn’t enough anymore. You’re basically flipping coins that your slightly different lineup with beat the other players lineup as half of your line is already cancelled out because some guys are so chalky. This differs in tournaments because of the payout structur. Game theory comes into play in this format and if you are any good at DFS you should probably just focus all your time into tourneys as the reward for being good will be much greater than trying to grind out a 55% (or whatever it is) win rate needed to break even (rake l0l) in cash games.

    The part of your argument where you should match with people in h2hs that are similar in skill does have some merit but that is a pretty difficult thing to measure. In my opinion they should eliminate their current format. If you want to play h2hs you sign up for X amount and then when the contest goes live you are randomly matched (only once) with other people in the player pool and there is no selection at all. This covers another issue to because winning players go “badge hunting” and try and scoop fish when they post games, but having them get randomly matched means this won’t happen (at least, not forcefully). I don’t know if this format would fly in high stakes and maybe at a certain BI level you keep the current format, but I think this would be a good idea for low stakes.

    It can’t be all that easy to get the highest badge, I’d assume it’s a very low percentage of players who have it. While there may be some less than great players with badges in the $1 lobby that doesn’t really interest me, I’m not looking to play for .80. Once you go to $5 and above your options are basically limited to the RotoGrinders Leader board. Sure once in a while I’ll pick up one of Moklovin’s (or someone like that) games just to see how I matchup and to test myself…. but I certainly don’t want to have players of his level to be my sole option for H2H games like it is now.

    You’re points on the edge in cash games make perfect sense, but it’s based upon the players you are forced to compete against. That edge certainly isn’t gone industry wide, just on the DK and FD where the H2H games are made up solely of higher level players. And I think that edge can return if DK implemented some sort of tier system to bring the more casual players back to H2H’s and DFS in general.

    On Yahoo the cash games are very beatable, until you become a “Vet” and you’re back to having to pick between Moklovin, Bric and Hoops .I think that illustrates that there is still a fair edge to be had when the skill levels are separated.

    Yahoo also has the quick match pairing that you mentioned, it’s based on a tier system. While their current grading of the tier system is pretty silly it’s still something…. It’s a start.

    I think making the game more fair solely at lower levels is a bad idea. That continues to keep away the ideal type of player, casual players with money. I know plenty of guys who make good money and would love to play at higher levels, $1 H2H’s are a waste of time to them, but they all got burned in the beginning of DFS are smart enough not to come back.

    Until the heavy hand of the huge bankroll players it lifted off of DFS it’s going to be impossible see any real growth in the industry.

    If DFS didn’t do things so horribly wrong in the beginning the current state of the industry would be wildly different. If people had the chance to win once in awhile they wouldn’t have fled DFS like it was the Titanic and the industry would have grown organically, people still love fantasy they just hate to throw away money . Today we’d be looking at something similar or bigger than online poker during it’s “boom” when they were filling huge prize pool tourneys nightly…. and you can only enter 1 time in poker.

  • fluffynuggets

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    It can’t be all that easy to get the highest badge, I’d assume it’s a very low percentage of players who have it.

    Can’t speak to percentages, but I have DK’s highest badge; and I am much closer, on the evolutionary chain, to minnow than shark.
    The “rankings” on all the sites are based on dollars played/won – and not, truly, indicative of skill level.

  • Shhhhhhhh

    That’s interesting. How did you get the badge? Did you get lucky on one huge field win?

  • sutogame

    Can we start moving the prize pools to MLB!!!

    You are running a 100K to first place in the NBA’s 1 game showcase Monday AGAIN!!!!

    It is about that time where you should be running 50K top prize $5 entry on MLB.

  • fluffynuggets

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    That’s interesting. How did you get the badge? Did you get lucky on one huge field win?

    No huge wins here. Played ALOT of slates over many years, and have the cumulative “winnings” to qualify. Play only low stakes. Think my largest win is $200ish. Again, experience badge has NOTHING to do with skill; it’s all about how much you’ve played. Granted, I do have a +ROI; but highly doubt anyone fears seeing my name in a player pool.

  • bigez952

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    That’s interesting. How did you get the badge? Did you get lucky on one huge field win?

    It is extremely easy to get the highest badge as all you have to do is win $2500+ and play 1000+ games. If you play 50 $1 head to heads a day you will be maxed out in less than 2 months of play.

    That is why all head to head players get it so quickly since many post 20-50 games a day so getting to 1000+ is fairly quick and having lifetime earnings over $2500 is also pretty easy even if it is just $1.80 at a time.

    I agree that the badge does nothing to show skill as someone can wager win $5000 and win back $2500 over 1000 games and get be credited with the max and experience badge even though they have a -50% ROI.

  • Zieg30

    MLB $5 $225K Knuckleball wonderfully pays 11.1% to first, but fails when it comes to the payouts for 4th place and below. The drop off is far too steep after that. 10th place should be 10% of first at a minimum, or $2,500.

    As others have said here, and as I’ve emailed DK repeatedly over the last year, the difference between first and tenth place can come down to a couple shots or blocks in NHL, or a couple hits in MLB. There should be a difference between first and tenth for payouts, but not as severe as $25,000 to $750!!

  • Zieg30

    Even closer to a solid top payout structure in the $4 $200K Fore for PGA. 10% to first, which is great. But then 10th is $1,000, or 5% of first. Should be at least 10%!

  • Jeddy3

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    That’s interesting. How did you get the badge? Did you get lucky on one huge field win?

    Getting the highest badge is very easy to get. I am far from a shark and have that badge just due to playing microstake single entry gpps and max $5 – $10 double ups. Also, I have not taken down any gpp.

  • timgodd375

    I have a couple recommendations:

    1. this has kind of been mentioned I, personally, think that the perfect tournament structure is approximately 10% to first, 10% of that to 10th, 2x min pay out with top 10-15% being paid.

    1a. Look at the PGA $444 tournament this week, 325k prize pool and 100k to first. 10th place is 4,000 (LESS THAN 10x) meaning you have to finish in the top 1.2% to get 10x your money… that’s pretty unacceptable for any tournament, let alone high stakes.

    2. Obviously if you want to succeed long term, you need to lower the rake eventually. Everyone will eventually lose sucking the DFS ecosystem dry. Like a lower rake creates a greater opportunity for the longevity of DFS

    Those are the two main problems that I have as it is tough for me to play tournaments knowing that it’s basically a lottery

  • btwice80

    @Zieg30 said...

    MLB $5 $225K Knuckleball wonderfully pays 11.1% to first, but fails when it comes to the payouts for 4th place and below. The drop off is far too steep after that. 10th place should be 10% of first at a minimum, or $2,500.

    In a field this large, with over 10,000 cashing spots to pay out, really the only way to to make that work would be to take it off the top, making the top prize $20K instead of $25K (which of course I would be in favor of). Because if the back half of the top 10 increases that much, then the next 20-30 spots at least would also need to go up to not have a steep drop off. The other option is drastically reducing the number of spots they pay out, and that’s highly unlikely.

    Much more disappointing to me is the $33 GPP again paying 20% to first.

  • Shhhhhhhh

    @Jeddy3 said...

    Getting the highest badge is very easy to get. I am far from a shark and have that badge just due to playing microstake single entry gpps and max $5 – $10 double ups. Also, I have not taken down any gpp.

    That’s interesting, I had no idea it was so easy to get the badges.

    But it’s a bummer that such a trivial little thing has become the biggest point of conversation out of everything discussed. Leaving the real problem to go without discussion.

    I was mistaken, the badges mean nothing… understood. Let me go join a few $5 H2H’s….
    Hmm now knowing that the badges are easy to get I’m not sure which of these fish I should play in $5 H2H
    ChipotleAddict….moklovin…..papagates…BirdWings…..

    Our sidetracked conversation about badges doesn’t change the very real problem we still have in H2H’s… If anything it further improves my point to shining light om how absurd their badge system is…. There is a guy ranked in the bottom 20% of every single sport with the same badge as Chipotle, yeah that makes sense.

    As I’ve said above, the system needs to be fixed.

    DraftKings, I’d love to hear your thoughts on the current state of H2H’s, and if you have any intention to make changes.

  • btwice80

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    That’s interesting, I had no idea it was so easy to get the badges.

    But it’s a bummer that such a trivial little thing has become the biggest point of conversation out of everything discussed.

    No, the biggest point of conversation, and most important, has been the prize structure of tournaments.

    Everyone knows and has known since they were implemented that the badges are a joke and are meaningless. It’s been noted many times, not a new revelation.

    As for h2h in general, you do realize yahoo’s new system only works because it’s rake-free, right? That system with rake included just becomes a giant rake-swap and most people would quit playing h2h. And of course there’s no chance whatsoever DK ever offers rake-free anything. The only other option, which was mentioned above, is entirely random matching, although that would likely lead to reduced h2h volume as well.

    It’s weird that you’re barking at DK about h2h when their system is way better than FD. You can always post your own h2hs, limit them to one per person, and block those names you mentioned (although I don’t think those guys spend their time hunting $5 h2hs anyway) and others if you like.

  • bigez952

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    That’s interesting, I had no idea it was so easy to get the badges.

    But it’s a bummer that such a trivial little thing has become the biggest point of conversation out of everything discussed. Leaving the real problem to go without discussion.

    I was mistaken, the badges mean nothing… understood. Let me go join a few $5 H2H’s….
    Hmm now knowing that the badges are easy to get I’m not sure which of these fish I should play in $5 H2H
    ChipotleAddict….moklovin…..papagates…BirdWings…..

    Our sidetracked conversation about badges doesn’t change the very real problem we still have in H2H’s… If anything it further improves my point to shining light om how absurd their badge system is…. There is a guy ranked in the bottom 20% of every single sport with the same badge as Chipotle, yeah that makes sense.

    As I’ve said above, the system needs to be fixed.

    DraftKings, I’d love to hear your thoughts on the current state of H2H’s, and if you have any intention to make changes.

    You do realize all of those names mentioned are already banned from Head to Head games under $5. So if your that concerned about playing some of those guys post the max 50 in the $1, $2, and $3 with your match up limit set to 1 and utilize your 10 blocks to guys that you know you can’t beat (that are not pros with 1 million + in play as they are already banned).

    DK already has one of the best H2H set ups with all the rules in place but if you still can’t win it is probably since only above average / good players try to grind out H2H’s and you won’t find causal users there so they are tougher to succeed at in my opinion.

    Again experience badges have nothing to do with skill is strictly pointing out which users have experience and played in over 1000 contest with career cashes of $2500+. Hence is it is called an experience badge and not a skill badge.

  • Shhhhhhhh

    @btwice80 said...

    No, the biggest point of conversation, and most important, has been the prize structure of tournaments.

    Everyone knows and has known since they were implemented that the badges are a joke and are meaningless. It’s been noted many times, not a new revelation.

    As for h2h in general, you do realize yahoo’s new system only works because it’s rake-free, right? That system with rake included just becomes a giant rake-swap and most people would quit playing h2h. And of course there’s no chance whatsoever DK ever offers rake-free anything. The only other option, which was mentioned above, is entirely random matching, although that would likely lead to reduced h2h volume as well.

    It’s weird that you’re barking at DK about h2h when their system is way better than FD. You can always post your own h2hs, limit them to one per person, and block those names you mentioned (although I don’t think those guys spend their time hunting $5 h2hs anyway) and others if you like.

    I was referring to my conversation, not the overall them of the thread. In my first post I touched on the flatter payouts size and my complete support of it.

    “Barking” is certainly something I don’t do. My posts have all been logical, even tempered and in the vein of improving the DFS community for everyone.

    This is the thread where your’e supposed to express issues and changes you’d like to see at DK, right?

    The portion of the Yahoo system I was mentioning was that they have a tier system for H2H to keep match-ups up relatively fairly paired. I didn’t mention anything about having no rake.

    I think instituting a fair tier program for H2H would do a lot to bring back former players who got sick of losing all their money to pro’s and left, espicially paired with a expanded showdown games.

    It gives casual player who doesn’t have the time to study a 10 game slate on a work day just to lose to “pros with high end computer programs” (a common concerns with former players) a reason to come back.

    If I was a guy with a 9-5 office job who left DFS after gettting crushed by “pro’s’ in the beginning, this is something that would entice me to return.

    A fair matchup on a single game after a day a work, sign me up….. Do some research and play with your LU at work, come home have dinner, crack a beer and watch the game.

    That’s the casual player… not the guys using spreedsheets, python ,RSTUDIO , FC and other various programs.

    If they could get these guys back on the site with some fair matched and easy to research H2H games, that they can actually win sometimes, they’ll stay….. and they’ll start dropping money in the GPP’s… Site grows, everyone wins.

    ruff

  • Shhhhhhhh

    @bigez952 said...

    You do realize all of those names mentioned are already banned from Head to Head games under $5. So if your that concerned about playing some of those guys post the max 50 in the $1, $2, and $3 with your match up limit set to 1 and utilize your 10 blocks to guys that you know you can’t beat (that are not pros with 1 million + in play as they are already banned).

    DK already has one of the best H2H set ups with all the rules in place but if you still can’t win it is probably since only above average / good players try to grind out H2H’s and you won’t find causal users there so they are tougher to succeed at in my opinion.

    Again experience badges have nothing to do with skill is strictly pointing out which users have experience and played in over 1000 contest with career cashes of $2500+. Hence is it is called an experience badge and not a skill badge.

    I have zero interest in playing $1-$3 H2H games…. Above I touched on how it’s a poor business plan to exclude pros from the lower level buyin’s as a solution….. What that really does is exclude casual people how have a few dollars to spend and want to play at $25+.

    Every casual player isn’t some broke college kid.

  • btwice80

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    The portion of the Yahoo system I was mentioning was that they have a tier system for H2H to keep match-ups up relatively fairly paired. I didn’t mention anything about having no rake.

    That was exactly my point, you didn’t even mention the only thing that makes it work. It doesn’t work otherwise.

    The handful of players who might come back (but let’s be honest, way more people who left due to losing money were losing in GPPs, not h2h; very few casuals have ever played h2h compared to GPP), won’t come anywhere near making up for all the people who will quit playing h2h—who currently play a much higher volume than anyone who quit—due to this rake-swap format. Overall h2h volume would drop dramatically, there’s just no way around it.

    I guess barking was a poor word choice, but I would have used it for all of us complaining about the other issue too.

  • Shhhhhhhh

    My thought process behind bringing back players and H2H’s is strongly tied to Showdown games. We didn’t have those when the masses left.

    The normal person doesn’t have hours a day to research a 10 game slate on a Monday…. They have work, baseball practice and dance recitals.They can tinker with a single game LU at work, it’s doesn’t consume time they don’t have.

    A one game, fairly matched, H2H (maybe 3-10 man too) seems very enticing to me. You finish the day, relax,add a little excitement to a random game and then go to bed with the satisfaction of knowing the outcome. Maybe you even won a few dollars….

    Back in the days of online poker I knew countless guys who would throw a few hundred dollars on to Stars or FT every few days and Play some tournaments. My point being that type of customer is out there, but they don’t have the time to research a full slate of baseball, or desire to stay up until 1:30am for a west coast game to end .

    And they’re to smart to play a game they know they’re guaranteed to lose over 80% of the time.

    But once you get them in the door…. that new money makes it’s way into GPP’s fast, people are greedy.

  • XxHeisenbergxX

    I want to know when you guys will come up with a contest for the KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Breeders Cup..I am a horse guy first and foremost and during this time of year DFS is an after thought. Not a baseball fan at all so I am on an extended DFS break until NFL starts. So I would love to see something for the horse racing fans like myself.

  • btwice80

    @Shhhhhhhh said...

    My thought process behind bringing back players and H2H’s is strongly tied to Showdown games. We didn’t have those when the masses left.

    Ah, well I have no interest in the Showdown format and never will.

    I know some people have left DFS, but not to the level you suggest with the word masses, no matter what anecdotal examples you may have. The contests are close to being as big as they ever were, and with all these new formats, not to mention the growth of PGA, I wouldn’t be surprised if overall volume is at its highest.

  • Shhhhhhhh

    @btwice80 said...

    Ah, well I have no interest in the Showdown format and never will.

    I know some people have left DFS, but not to the level you suggest with the word masses, no matter what anecdotal examples you may have. The contests are close to being as big as they ever were, and with all these new formats, not to mention the growth of PGA, I wouldn’t be surprised if overall volume is at its highest.

    The Showdown idea didn’t have you in mind, you clearly already play a bit judging by that blue circle

    .I’d be Shocked if the number of active players is anywhere near it’s all time high. Individual players and “volume” don’t correlate very well. Not with the increase of heavy volume players and shared bankroll groups.

    eh, agree to disagree. Good talk brother

    I gotta start making LU’s

    Good luck tonight.

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