NBA FORUM

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  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    Hi everyone — NBA Late Swap has been a passionate topic of discussion within the DFS player community over the past few years.

    Because the status of injured and inactive players in the NBA is often unknown until minutes before tip-off, our users have shared a strong desire to swap players out of a lineup(s), so long as the listed start time of player’s game has not passed.

    We also recognize there are pros/cons with enabling late swap versus no late swap feature. On one hand, offering late swap could help a user avoid a “zero” scoring player on their lineup(s). On the other hand, no late swap feature, allows a user to set their lineups without the need for last minute lineup adjustments after breaking news.

    Therefore, throughout each sport season we survey active players about their playing experience and request product feedback. From 2015-2017, NBA user survey results indicated our users were split ~50%/50% when asked if DraftKings should offer late swap.

    During the 2017-2018 we saw a slight shift in sentiment, now strongly in favor of bringing back NBA Late Swap: – The return of NBA Late Swap was the #1 contest enhancement request. – 75% of players surveyed said they would be either “very interested” or “somewhat interested” in the return of Late Swap.

    Given the increase in customer demand for this feature, our main offering for NBA will offer the Late Swap feature on Classic and Tiers game formats for the 2018-2019 season. Late Swap is not necessary for Showdown Captain Mode game formats.

    As the game and community demand evolves, so does DraftKings. The NBA contest managers will be looking at Late Swap utilization and entry trends at the start of the season, and may adjust as the needs and demands of our players evolve.

    Steven & Christie, DraftKings Community Team

  • bigez952

    @damionismyname said...

    dude also basically says MLB dfs is easier than NBA which is total bs. he is just one of those guys who is too lazy to pay attention and wants to try his hand at a big payday with minimal effort. Casual = lazy and not sure why you guys are bitching when you will have 3 other slates to play. If you cant watch news and have kids and all that then sorry. Some ppl work on Sunday and cant watch football either.

    I didn’t get that out of the video. I thought he explained that the NBA is the easiest sport for the ones who are good at it due to the smallest range of outcomes on a day to day basis. It is the one sport where there is the largest edge to be dominated by a smaller % of users due to the lack of variance that is seen in MLB and NFL.

    So if your great at the NBA which is sounds like you are this is a great thing for you. I wouldn’t really say casual = lazy as some of us just have different priorities in life which is ok. For me the critical 3 hours that are needed for the NBA is my time with my kids which I wouldn’t want to give up. Since I primarily only play Draftkings and have spent so much time playing DFS the last 3 years I am looking forward to just taking a 4 month break from January to April.

  • Jvanspro

    @damionismyname said...

    dude also basically says MLB dfs is easier than NBA which is total bs. he is just one of those guys who is too lazy to pay attention and wants to try his hand at a big payday with minimal effort. Casual = lazy and not sure why you guys are bitching when you will have 3 other slates to play. If you cant watch news and have kids and all that then sorry. Some ppl work on Sunday and cant watch football either.

    That wasn’t said at all and you’re mixing words to try to validate your point. His point was baseball is much harder to predict outcomes then the NBA. Which means there is less of an advantage to late swap.

  • damionismyname

    @Njsum1 said...

    If you mean contests where people can enter 150 lineups, and you’re not, I’d agree. Yet I don’t think, in fact I know from experience, that in 20 max contests, in the sport of baseball, one can actually be better off with fewer lineups. In NBA and NFL, slate depending, the full 20 might be the way to go.

    Back to late swap…besides the fact that people can avoid pros, for most people who are anti late swap, it isn’t just about the edge they give up by not using correctly, it’s that they simply do not want to spend their night redoing lineups, just so they don’t get run over by the competition. It doesn’t matter what level they are playing at, it could be from quarters to 3 dollars. Personally I would welcome, 1for 1swaps, or a sub position, if the sites could figure it out. That takes no time…I get an alert, the scratched player gets unlocked and I do a universal swap. Takes all of a minute. Great…no problem.

    Yet I certainly do not care to make backloaded blank lineups, and constantly reoptimize for breaking news, from 7 to 1030, every night for 6 months, when I already just spent 2 hours researching and hand making 20 lineups. No thank you. Cause even at low level buy ins, people will do this. For me it takes the fun out. Too much of a time commitment for what should be a hobby at the smaller levels. I don’t mind losing to better players, that’s life. Yet I don’t want to play I game where I will be disadvantaged simply because I do not want to adjust my lineups all night and sit in front of a screen.

    I don’t mind constantly refreshing BBM up until 7…after that, I’ve got better things to do. Even on nights where those “better things” are just following the teams I’ve already created.

    you continually complain about it being “too much work for a hobby”. you want the system to stay your way so you can continue your “hobby” when others are trying to win. I seems selfish that you want big gpp’s to stay no late swap when you, as a hobbyist have multiple other options to get you nba fix. That’s like being upset that they turned the laundromat below your apt into a sandwich shop and you’re pissed because now you have to walk 2 blocks to do laundry at one of the other 5 on the street. PPl grind out 2-5 hundred a day a smaller levels and those guys want every advantage afforded them. You seem to think anyone who plays $100 or less per day should take your side which is wrong. So basically what I’m saying is.

    Walk your ass down the street to the other laundromat and let the others eat sandwiches in peace.

  • damionismyname

    @Jvanspro said...

    That wasn’t said at all and you’re mixing words to try to validate your point. His point was baseball is much harder to predict outcomes then the NBA. Which means there is less of an advantage to late swap.

    he said ppl play baseball for 6 months vs nba for 2 weeks because of losing.

  • bigez952

    @damionismyname said...

    he said ppl play baseball for 6 months vs nba for 2 weeks because of losing.

    Which is because he directly states that the NBA is the easiest sport to dominate so if your not a great player your going to get burned out of losing in 2 weeks. Whereas a high variance sport like the MLB it is extremely difficult to dominate day in and day out so bad players can get enough wins to keep them around for 9 weeks or so before they quit

    So I took it that the NBA is actually a far easier sport if your great at it vs. the MLB which is one of the toughest due to the high variance from day to day..

  • Jvanspro

    @damionismyname said...

    he said ppl play baseball for 6 months vs nba for 2 weeks because of losing.

    There you go trying to mince words to support your narrative again. That is not what he was saying. He was talking about the reason it was moved in the first place. It was a business decision about player retention and how late swap decreased retention due to the massive edge it gave the 1% who re-optimize 20 times a night.

  • Cooper08

    • Blogger of the Month

    @Jvanspro said...

    There you go trying to mince words to support your narrative again. That is not what he was saying. He was talking about the reason it was moved in the first place. It was a business decision about player retention and how late swap decreased retention due to the massive edge it gave the 1% who re-optimize 20 times a night.

    Which is exactly why DK community put this at the end of there post….

    The NBA contest managers will be looking at Late Swap utilization and entry trends at the start of the season, and may adjust as the needs and demands of our players evolve.

  • gaelicgirl

    @mtdurham said...

    The thing is…taking a 0 is not nearly as detrimental as people believe…. you have to realize anywhere form 50-85% (depending how skilled you are) were probably not even going to cash anyway…. and most of the time when they do cash it’s the difference between barely missing the money and min cashing…..

    In the meantime by playing a guy who is questionable or 3% owned bc he’s not confirmed in the lineup yet when his “true value” ownership should be 10-12%??? That’s the kind of stuff that willl win you a freaking GPP one day….. and that $25,000 score will offset one stupid zero per week for the rest of your life…

    If I’m playing 20 lineups, what do I care about one of them catching a Zero?! Big deal… that’s like getting upset that I dropped a cheerio on the floor.

    Now if they want to make late swap for “Single Entry”, “3-max”, or large buyin tournaments ($100+) I think that would be a great compromise…. Look if you can’t handle monitoring one lineup, maybe you should just not play that night… or just be an adult and don’t get upset that a lineup that was unlikely to win anyway is now a near certainty not to win.

    If you’re buying in for a $2,120 ten man tournament… I can see getting pretty miffed about catching a Zero. You want to play with the big boys pay the toll.

    But if I want to play 100 lineups for $1 apiece I shouldn’t be required to devote my entire night to DFS at the expense of all social and familial obligations. I don’t want my hygenie/rest/schoolwork/hobbies/physical and mental health all to suffer just because I’m a degenerate gambler with ADD and the absolute need to prove I’m better than everyone else because I can accurately forecast how much Kyle Kuzma usage/role will change with Lebron’s move to the Lakers.

    You don’t seem to be looking at late swap from the perspective of players who only play a limited number of entries per night, I think that’s where our difference of opinion lies. Players with limited bankroll don’t play 100 lineups for $1 apiece.
    Last season I only played on FD, because they offered the best limited entry contests. The vast majority of nights I entered the same contests: the $2 SE Block, the $1 SE Dribbler, and the $1 3-entry max Swat. Sometimes I would enter the $5 SE Assist as well, if I felt particularly confident in my LU. Player pools in these contests ranged from 1190 to 21428, depending on the size of the slate.

    If you are only making 5 LUs for $6 per night on average, taking a 0 on one of your core players is extremely detrimental. You lose all of your entries. Because I have limited bankroll and the NBA season is long, contest selection is important. So I choose contests where I feel I have the best odds of winning and simply don’t play the 150-max entry contests, because I know there are players in there who can afford to gamble on players who are questionable at lock. It would make no sense for a player in my position to throw one LU into one of those contests for $4 when I can play a SE contest for $2 and win $100 by coming in 4th out of 1785 players.

    If you are willing to risk $100 per night but can’t be bothered to follow the news up until lock to protect your investment, then you must have money to burn. No offense, but that just sounds like a lazy person who wants to throw a bunch of stuff against a wall and hope some of it sticks. Yes, NBA is the red-headed stepchild of our major sports in regard to player reporting, but it is what it is. I do feel for the players who are hindered in their ability fo monitor news because of family obligations, that’s understandable. But I’m less sympathetic to players who just want to shovel a bunch of money into contests and hope for the best while investing a minimum amount of effort.

    Instead of being dismissive of the 75% of casual or low-stakes players who are pleased by the return of late swap, maybe try looking at it from their perspective. Let the sharks and pros have their advantage in NBA, they already have it in every other sport anyway. Meanwhile, I will be happy that DK has given the smaller-time NBA DFS players the same opportunity to avoid goose eggs in their LUs that players in all the other sports have already been enjoying.

  • osuryanf

    Great decision by DK and will absolutely increase my volume on their site during NBA season.

    As I’ve said on here countless times, DK getting rid of late swap for NBA last year was so horrifically pre-planned that it backfired and costed them thousands if not millions throughtout the NBA season. You have sports like the NFL who will punish teams that don’t give injury designations to players in advance of matchups. Baseball has improved in this regard as well. However, the NBA has no such rules and a player could be perfectly healthy and scratch him 5 minutes before tip-off for a ghost injury (that typically didn’t even occur). That alone makes the NBA the one sport that needs Late Swap THE MOST!

    If the NBA would be more strict on their injury designations and punish teams for hiding certain injuries, sure, you could justify getting rid of late swap. But that isn’t the case, nor is it anywhere near the case, so late swap is a MUST for the NBA.

  • Jvanspro

    @gaelicgirl said...

    Instead of being dismissive of the 75% of casual or low-stakes players who are pleased by the return of late swap, maybe try looking at it from their perspective

    I’m totally with you on this. I’m not dismissing your viewpoint at all. Like I said in my earlier post I believe everyone is in favor for late swap, just not in the current setup. Swapping out injured or scratched player is fine. The issue arises when players are pushing people like yourself below the payline by re-optimizing and calculating your plays based on left over salary to gain an edge over you.

  • tbird05

    @gaelicgirl said...

    If you are only making 5 LUs for $6 per night on average, taking a 0 on one of your core players is extremely detrimental. You lose all of your entries.

    I think this is the wrong mindset of someone who plays in contests with 20,000-30,000 entries. You are trying to win the top prize. You should be okay with taking a 0, if that zero could actually be 70 fps. That’s the plays that could shoot you to the top of the leaderboard. Pros want casual players to not play these low owned players.

    It always amazes me how few people will take a small risk and play a Joel Embiid (with a Q tag) when he’s going to be 2% owned in a field with 30k entries. Especially when the buy-in is $3-$4. The goal is to win the 10k up top. Not to just reach the cash line.

    I’m pro late swap. I think the majority of players make suboptimal decisions when it comes to player news/injuries.

  • damionismyname

    @Jvanspro said...

    There you go trying to mince words to support your narrative again. That is not what he was saying. He was talking about the reason it was moved in the first place. It was a business decision about player retention and how late swap decreased retention due to the massive edge it gave the 1% who re-optimize 20 times a night.

    he says it was a business decision but gives no hardcore numbers to support his theory. If you cant win at basketball then you sure as hell wont win at baseball. Seems you just want to pick a guy on youtube to support your position when anyone can do that. regardless, it seems the business decision is to cater to those who aren’t burping babies or walking dogs at 8pm.

  • Jvanspro

    @damionismyname said...

    he says it was a business decision but gives no hardcore numbers to support his theory. If you cant win at basketball then you sure as hell wont win at baseball. Seems you just want to pick a guy on youtube to support your position when anyone can do that. regardless, it seems the business decision is to cater to those who aren’t burping babies or walking dogs at 8pm.

    You are correct sir. Fast Eddie is just some random guy on YouTube. When in fact, he’s one of the more respected DFS NBA analysts in the industry.

    If you truly believe this stuff GL this season. DK will welcome your Re-deposit by Thanksgiving.

  • gaelicgirl

    @Jvanspro said...

    I’m totally with you on this. I’m not dismissing your viewpoint at all. Like I said in my earlier post I believe everyone is in favor for late swap, just not in the current setup. Swapping out injured or scratched player is fine. The issue arises when players are pushing people like yourself below the payline by re-optimizing and calculating your plays based on left over salary to gain an edge over you.

    I would be fine with limited late swap for injured or scratched players. It’s just hard to trust that either of the major sites would stay on top of literally last-minute news, and even if they did, that there would be enough time to implement the necessary programming changes before lock. Having a substitute player already queued up seems like the best solution.

    FWIW, I didn’t find your posts particularly dismissive…I was referring more to the “getting upset because I dropped a Cheeri-O on the floor” type comments. It irks me when people come off with the attitude that if you’re not playing a lot of money in DFS, your opinion doesn’t matter.
    But that’s just my pet peeve.

  • Jvanspro

    @gaelicgirl said...

    I would be fine with limited late swap for injured or scratched players. It’s just hard to trust that either of the major sites would stay on top of literally last-minute news, and even if they did, that there would be enough time to implement the necessary programming changes before lock. Having a substitute player already queued up seems like the best solution.

    FWIW, I didn’t find your posts particularly dismissive…I was referring more to the “getting upset because I dropped a Cheeri-O on the floor” type comments. It irks me when people come off with the attitude that if you’re not playing a lot of money in DFS, your opinion doesn’t matter.
    But that’s just my pet peeve.

    Understood, and I respect your viewpoint. Draft hast the perfect swap option IMO and it works very well. This or a similar system is what the major sites should be utilizing.

  • damionismyname

    @Jvanspro said...

    You are correct sir. Fast Eddie is just some random guy on YouTube. When in fact, he’s one of the more respected DFS NBA analysts in the industry.

    If you truly believe this stuff GL this season. DK will welcome your Re-deposit by Thanksgiving.

    I knew a guy named “Fast Eddie” once, he owned a pizza shop in my town and was also a male stripper. who cares who he is. show me the numbers to support anything he’s saying. You seem to cherry pick your information to support your flawed position which is fine. If you don’t like late swap just play other slates and stop bitching.

  • Pandamonious

    • 840

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #86

      RG Tiered Ranking

    • Moderator

    • 2020 Blogger of the Month

    Neither side is going to convince the other side that their side is right. I love a good debate, but no one here is picking a winner and awarding anyone anything. The DFS results will speak for themselves. What I know is if I make a good line up it will cash no matter what youdacao is doing. DFS is supposed to be a game of skill. You either figure it out and master the skill and remain profitable long term or you don’t. Some people are so worried about what other people are doing they overlook what they can be doing to make themselves better. When you lose money every night the first week of the season it won’t be because you made poor choices, it’ll be because the “sharks” optimized you out of cash.

    There was a post earlier from someone who said last season was their best NBA season so far. Instead of giving themselves credit and thinking maybe they have gotten better at NBA DFS, they claimed it was because of no late swap. That’s an awful mindset to have.

    “Sharks” will always find an edge over you. As damionismyname mentioned earlier, someone mass entering with no late swap may take shots at players who are GTD’s or doubtful to play at lock time that people with less line ups and less bank roll will be willing to take a shot on. A GTD for Dame at 8.4K against the Suns will be a pass for someone only making 1-5 line ups, but someone with 150, may roll him out in 10-15 at sub 5% ownership. If he plays and blows up for 60 FP’s and is the highest scoring PG of the night they just gained a huge advantage on you. With late swap now you can plug in Dame and if he plays leave him or if he’s out pivot elsewhere. That’s one place that now they won’t potentially have an advantage.

    Worry about you and do the best you can. There’s always going to be someone better than you and if there isn’t now there will be soon. If you’re doing your best and not cashing, hopefully you’re at least having fun with it and learning to get better. If neither is true you’re probably not going to be playing DFS for long anyway.

  • damionismyname

    @Pandamonious said...

    Neither side is going to convince the other side that their side is right. I love a good debate, but no one here is picking a winner and awarding anyone anything. The DFS results will speak for themselves. What I know is if I make a good line up it will cash no matter what youdacao is doing. DFS is supposed to be a game of skill. You either figure it out and master the skill and remain profitable long term or you don’t. Some people are so worried about what other people are doing they overlook what they can be doing to make themselves better. When you lose money every night the first week of the season it won’t be because you made poor choices, it’ll be because the “sharks” optimized you out of cash.

    There was a post earlier from someone who said last season was their best NBA season so far. Instead of giving themselves credit and thinking maybe they have gotten better at NBA DFS, they claimed it was because of no late swap. That’s an awful mindset to have.

    “Sharks” will always find an edge over you. As damionismyname mentioned earlier, someone mass entering with no late swap may take shots at players who are GTD’s or doubtful to play at lock time that people with less line ups and less bank roll will be willing to take a shot on. A GTD for Dame at 8.4K against the Suns will be a pass for someone only making 1-5 line ups, but someone with 150, may roll him out in 10-15 at sub 5% ownership. If he plays and blows up for 60 FP’s and is the highest scoring PG of the night they just gained a huge advantage on you. With late swap now you can plug in Dame and if he plays leave him or if he’s out pivot elsewhere. That’s one place that now they won’t potentially have an advantage.

    Worry about you and do the best you can. There’s always going to be someone better than you and if there isn’t now there will be soon. If you’re doing your best and not cashing, hopefully you’re at least having fun with it and learning to get better. If neither is true you’re probably not going to be playing DFS for long anyway.

  • Jvanspro

    @damionismyname said...

    I knew a guy named “Fast Eddie” once, he owned a pizza shop in my town and was also a male stripper. who cares who he is. show me the numbers to support anything he’s saying. You seem to cherry pick your information to support your flawed position which is fine. If you don’t like late swap just play other slates and stop bitching.

    I’m not bitching at all. The only thing I was doing was pointing out the big picture flaws of late swap. If it gives you warm fuzzies to swap out a guy that got scratch and also understand the System is to your disadvantage, great. I’m all for it. However, I do feel it’s worth pointing out what late swap really is for those who don’t understand. If you understand it’s -EV for you and you still want it that’s fine. Personally, I’ll play on FD under the current setup.

    As I stated earlier I am all for late swap, just not the current setup for my bankroll.

  • tbird05

    I came up with a compromise.

    Cash games – no late swap. The sites should lean towards a designated player sub option for surprise late scratches

    GPP’s – full on late swap enabled

  • KindGuy

    @tbird05 said...

    I came up with a compromise.

    Cash games – no late swap. The sites should lean towards a designated player sub option for surprise late scratches

    GPP’s – full on late swap enabled

    Let me guess. You mostly play GPPs?

  • Njsum1

    @damionismyname said...

    you continually complain about it being “too much work for a hobby”. you want the system to stay your way so you can continue your “hobby” when others are trying to win. I seems selfish that you want big gpp’s to stay no late swap when you, as a hobbyist have multiple other options to get you nba fix. That’s like being upset that they turned the laundromat below your apt into a sandwich shop and you’re pissed because now you have to walk 2 blocks to do laundry at one of the other 5 on the street. PPl grind out 2-5 hundred a day a smaller levels and those guys want every advantage afforded them. You seem to think anyone who plays $100 or less per day should take your side which is wrong. So basically what I’m saying is.

    Walk your ass down the street to the other laundromat and let the others eat sandwiches in peace.

    I never said certain people should feel a certain way. People can feel as they want. I understand why some people want late swap, and I know why I don’t. I also never once said anything regarding how much money a person puts into play should have an effect on their preference toward late swap. There are plenty of players who play thousands, not hundreds, a night who do not want to play late swap. It has nothing to do with volume played. Yet if you actually read my posts, you’d know, I don’t prefer no late swap at all, I prefer a hybrid, where only the late scratched player can be subbed out. Or some type of sub player option.

  • Gathman78

    @bhdevault said...

    Gathman,

    You are not seeing the full picture here. In order to REALLY take advantage of late swap, it takes much more than simply checking your phone for any alerts that a late scratch happened and replacing that player. Again, check out the video I linked above. He explains it in detail. Taking full advantage would be sitting at your computer and making multiple substitutions across all your lineups to take advantage of late news and/or players performance in the early games.

    The average guy will never do that. Thus, late swap really does hurt the average guy, and they simply are not aware it will.

    Keep in mind, these are just my personal views as a player, nothing to do with RG. I am fully aware of the disadvantage late swap will bring me and just like others chose not to play without it, I will choose to not play with it. The edge in DFS is already small enough as it is.

    Let me be clear, this wasn’t solely directed at YOU and I should’ve posted as such. I’ve seen that used numerous times over the years and it always made me roll my eyes. Also, for the other posters saying I am missing the point, I fully understand the pros, cons and whatever else case can be made for late swap. I fully understand the benefit of helping the max entering crowd. My question is, if you feel this way about being in a contest with such players and consider this a detriment to the casual player, why is said player even in such a GPP? The late swap option benefits all players in my opinion. When I do my research hours ahead of time, of course I take into account possible late swap options be it a last minute scratch or a competitive advantage. The mass entry guys have an advantage with late swap or not, so what is the real issue here? If a player is not okay with those contest specifics, then there are plenty single entry offerings at ones disposal. Like a previous poster said, this is really an overblown argument. I for one, am all for late swap.

  • jhpog

    disappointed to hear this. now I can only play on nights where I have nothing to do and can sit in front of the pc for hours getting news for the late games or else I fall way behind the rest of the entries. It was much more preferred being on an even playing field each night when it came to news.

    It looks like this is a thing more people here like though, so it’s probably a good thing for your site to do and I’m just in the minority. Just doesn’t work best for me.

  • KindGuy

    Let’s just hope FANDUEL, doesn’t change. Variety is sorely needed in this industry where there are only 2 major players. If Fanduel follows in the footsteps of DK, the only site left with early lock would be FantasyDraft. Don’t screw this up, Nik!

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