NBA FORUM

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  • DraftKings_CM

    • DraftKings Representative

    Hi everyone — NBA Late Swap has been a passionate topic of discussion within the DFS player community over the past few years.

    Because the status of injured and inactive players in the NBA is often unknown until minutes before tip-off, our users have shared a strong desire to swap players out of a lineup(s), so long as the listed start time of player’s game has not passed.

    We also recognize there are pros/cons with enabling late swap versus no late swap feature. On one hand, offering late swap could help a user avoid a “zero” scoring player on their lineup(s). On the other hand, no late swap feature, allows a user to set their lineups without the need for last minute lineup adjustments after breaking news.

    Therefore, throughout each sport season we survey active players about their playing experience and request product feedback. From 2015-2017, NBA user survey results indicated our users were split ~50%/50% when asked if DraftKings should offer late swap.

    During the 2017-2018 we saw a slight shift in sentiment, now strongly in favor of bringing back NBA Late Swap: – The return of NBA Late Swap was the #1 contest enhancement request. – 75% of players surveyed said they would be either “very interested” or “somewhat interested” in the return of Late Swap.

    Given the increase in customer demand for this feature, our main offering for NBA will offer the Late Swap feature on Classic and Tiers game formats for the 2018-2019 season. Late Swap is not necessary for Showdown Captain Mode game formats.

    As the game and community demand evolves, so does DraftKings. The NBA contest managers will be looking at Late Swap utilization and entry trends at the start of the season, and may adjust as the needs and demands of our players evolve.

    Steven & Christie, DraftKings Community Team

  • damionismyname

    @Gathman78 said...

    Let me be clear, this wasn’t solely directed at YOU and I should’ve posted as such. I’ve seen that used numerous times over the years and it always made me roll my eyes. Also, for the other posters saying I am missing the point, I fully understand the pros, cons and whatever else case can be made for late swap. I fully understand the benefit of helping the max entering crowd. My question is, if you feel this way about being in a contest with such players and consider this a detriment to the casual player, why is said player even in such a GPP? The late swap option benefits all players in my opinion. When I do my research hours ahead of time, of course I take into account possible late swap options be it a last minute scratch or a competitive advantage. The mass entry guys have an advantage with late swap or not, so what is the real issue here? If a player is not okay with those contest specifics, then there are plenty single entry offerings at ones disposal. Like a previous poster said, this is really an overblown argument. I for one, am all for late swap.

    I just think ppl who are upset that it hurts casuals are misguided. If you are a casual then you have other options. It seems that ppl who are against late swap are using the casual argument as a way to attack it.

  • ttucowboy84

    @bsize30 said...

    Having a player in your lineup get 0 sucks but at least thats an even playing field, professionals being able to re-optimize their entire lineups around breaking news absolutely crushes the already small chance casual players have to win. It’s surprising so few seem to realize this.

    This, this and more of this. Everyone is so fixated on getting boned by a late scratch without realizing that this is way worse. Sharks are now at a huge advantage. Amazing how many people are excited about now being at a huge disadvantage.

  • frugal

    @Jvanspro said...

    You’re completely missing what late swap is. If you are doing it from a phone, you are doing it wrong. It’s about calculating plays based on performance of your lineups vs. the field and swapping.

    Late swap never has and never will have anything to do with scratches in the current setup. If you believe it is you are misguided.

    If done correctly players are calculating you lineup and optimizing plays to push you lower in the standings or under the cash line. Look at the big picture here my friends. The current setup is bad for you. If it were setup for scratches only then were are talking about a completely different scenario. I’m all for that format.

    “ If done correctly players are calculating you lineup and optimizing plays to push you lower in the standings or under the cash line”

    Isn’t this the point of DFS period, to beat your opponents?

  • ttucowboy84

    @Cooper08 said...

    That is only a very small portion of why it is detrimental to the casual player. The majority only use late swap for the player ruled out. The top DFS players use late swap every night regardless of players being ruled out. The top players optimize there lineups with games starting at 8, 830, 9, 930, 10 and 1030. They change there lineups multiple times nightly based off there teams performance providing them with the best opportunities to score well based off the optimizer they use.

    Edit…nothing against the top DFS players, they are just following what the rules allow..

    Couldn’t have said it any better myself. Baffling casual players are actually excited about this. I’ll still play a little because I have had success in the past (had my biggest score ever of $50K in the NBA), but nowhere near the volume I originally planned to (will probably just do single entry when I do play). This is disastrous for casual players like me who don’t run an optimizer and can’t be glued to Twitter all night. Sucks because I was really looking forward to the NBA season.

  • Pandamonious

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    @ttucowboy84 said...

    Couldn’t have said it any better myself. Baffling casual players are actually excited about this. I’ll still play a little because I have had success in the past (had my biggest score ever of $50K in the NBA), but nowhere near the volume I originally planned to (will probably just do single entry when I do play). This is disastrous for casual players like me who don’t run an optimizer and can’t be glued to Twitter all night. Sucks because I was really looking forward to the NBA season.

    So your 50K NBA hit was last year on DK with no late swap correct?

    Has it been 2 years now with no late swap, or was it just last season? I can’t even remember.

  • ttucowboy84

    @Pandamonious said...

    So your 50K NBA hit was last year on DK with no late swap correct?

    Has it been 2 years now with no late swap, or was it just last season? I can’t even remember.

    https://www.stacknfade.com/contest-report/draftkings-nba-gpp-top-winners-january-4-2017

    It was Jan 2017 and there was no late swap.

  • Pandamonious

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    @ttucowboy84 said...

    https://www.stacknfade.com/contest-report/draftkings-nba-gpp-top-winners-january-4-2017

    It was Jan 2017 and there was no late swap.

    Aright. Just was curious. I didn’t see it in your profile so I thought maybe it was before you signed up here and when late swap existed. Your obviously still entitled to your opinion, it would just be ironic if you won an NBA GPP when late swap existed.

  • ttucowboy84

    @Pandamonious said...

    Aright. Just was curious. I didn’t see it in your profile so I thought maybe it was before you signed up here and when late swap existed. Your obviously still entitled to your opinion, it would just be ironic if you won an NBA GPP when late swap existed.

    Right, yeah I didn’t link my DK username to my RG profile until around Feb/Mar 2017 (can’t remember exactly, but it was shortly after the big score). I remember that night distinctly because I was back at my old stomping grounds pretending I could still party like I was in college. Didn’t check my phone for a few hours and would’ve been at a huge disadvantage if there was late swap.

  • mike291md

    Why not offer both late swap and non-swap contests for NBA? Or is there not enough people to fill both? I would imagine the max-enter pros are filling most every tournament no matter what so wouldn’t it likely fill regardless?

    Even if the demand for non-swap was small, why not just cut down the tournament size to the level of demand. Would think an argument for having both would always work better than leaving people only one option.

    Maybe DK can treat a non-swap contest like they treated their MLB quarter arcades this season and make them available, but laughable in terms of prize pools and contest sizing. They should have this process down pat by now after doing it so consistently for MLB.

  • Njsum1

    @damionismyname said...

    I just think ppl who are upset that it hurts casuals are misguided. If you are a casual then you have other options. It seems that ppl who are against late swap are using the casual argument as a way to attack it.

    I find it kind of funny/strange that you are such a proponent of late swap considering you’ve done well on DK and Fanduel over the past couple of years, during which time late swap was not allowed. I don’t see any previous history in your profile from when DK allowed late swap, yet I’m assuming you must have done even better considering your hardline stance.

    Edit: curious as to why you want late swap considering your recent success?

  • damionismyname

    @Njsum1 said...

    I find it kind of funny/strange that you are such a proponent of late swap considering you’ve done well on DK and Fanduel over the past couple of years, during which time late swap was not allowed. I don’t see any previous history in your profile from when DK allowed late swap, yet I’m assuming you must have done even better considering your hardline stance.

    Edit: curious as to why you want late swap considering your recent success?

    I hate 0’s but feel that for me it gives me leverage over those who dont use it by doing exactly what you said ppl do on a micro level. I would max out qa’s and enter some others and would always leave spots open to maximize my scores and if you do pay atrention it benefits you. I really think it helps those who dont max enter becuase you can make the changes like the pros. Ive been on the wrong side of the slate lock everytime.

  • curt777

    This is great news DK!

    Now bring back the 150 entry $3 gpps!

  • jayk123

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    i guess i’m supposed to be excited about this as NBA locks in the morning where i am and i have no commitments the rest of the day. but jeez, this turns NBA into such a hardcore grind.

  • Njsum1

    @damionismyname said...

    . Ive been on the wrong side of the slate lock everytime

    Yeah that’s variance though, this year it likely would have evened out. I also was on the wrong side of variance far too often when it came to late scratches last year. There was even one night when I was 80% on a player 5% owned, who got scratched, forgot who it was. I still had my best NBA season. On top of the other reasons I prefer no late swap, other than a limited swap format, I feel like it makes me tinker too much and I often tinker off good plays onto mediocre ones.

    Yeah I can see how someone doing a single entry in a single or 3 max tourney could compete with the pros if their willing to adjust lineups and follow news all night, yet if you’re going to max enter you need some programming ability to compete. I don’t play the 150 max tourneys anyway, yet even 20 I feel is too much for me to personally handle in a late swap GPP. Others can probably do it. It is what is at this point. I’m Ok with it. I’ll likely just play 1 lineup per night this season, in late swap stuff. I’m hoping eventually DK will offer a late swap for the scratched player only at some point, or at least some non late swap tourneys, just like they did with late swap last year. I don’t mind small tourneys.

  • Trappist1

    @osuryanf said...

    Great decision by DK and will absolutely increase my volume on their site during NBA season.

    As I’ve said on here countless times, DK getting rid of late swap for NBA last year was so horrifically pre-planned that it backfired and costed them thousands if not millions throughtout the NBA season. You have sports like the NFL who will punish teams that don’t give injury designations to players in advance of matchups. Baseball has improved in this regard as well. However, the NBA has no such rules and a player could be perfectly healthy and scratch him 5 minutes before tip-off for a ghost injury (that typically didn’t even occur). That alone makes the NBA the one sport that needs Late Swap THE MOST!

    If the NBA would be more strict on their injury designations and punish teams for hiding certain injuries, sure, you could justify getting rid of late swap. But that isn’t the case, nor is it anywhere near the case, so late swap is a MUST for the NBA.

    Nailed it on the head. Thank you and agree with you 100%.

  • rog11sm

    As a casual player I enjoyed not having late swap.
    Now I don’t have much of a chance against the multi enter players. I hated a zero as much as the next person but I knew we were all in the same boat.
    Now if my 1 or 2 lineups I make start off great and have say 1 player left in the late game and a multiplayer has the same core and 1 player left in a late game with say 150 lineups(35 or so with 1 player left) he can cover the entire field at this point. Increasing his odds and destroying mine and the rest of the field.

  • SkateFiend

    @rog11sm said...

    As a casual player I enjoyed not having late swap.
    Now I don’t have much of a chance against the multi enter players. I hated a zero as much as the next person but I knew we were all in the same boat.
    Now if my 1 or 2 lineups I make start off great and have say 1 player left in the late game and a multiplayer has the same core and 1 player left in a late game with say 150 lineups(35 or so with 1 player left) he can cover the entire field at this point. Increasing his odds and destroying mine and the rest of the field.

    The casual players will always be outmatched by multi entry pros. If a pro enters 200 lineups and a zero sinks a hundred of them. I still have to compete with the other hundred. And I have to assume pros construct lineups with late scratch or risky players in mind.

    I can see Yahoo players arguing for not having late swap, because their entry limit and contests are SMALL. And that site has some overlays somewhere. So if LBJ was scratched 3 minutes after lock, 30-40% of the field is out or can only hope for min cash and my balanced lineups have a better chance of winning. But even at Yahoo it’s not a huge advantage. Because I still have to compete with everyone else with no zeroes, and all it takes is like a off shooting night from my SG and a middling game from my center (this happens a ton) to keep me down.

    Not having late swap might shave off some advantage enjoyed by pros, but it’s not enough for me to risk a zero in my lineup. You can go on a LONG losing streak in the NBA. Small time players have to mind their bankrolls.

    The funny thing is that Yahoo has late swap, but I always cash there more consistently than any other site. And their pricing enables me to make multiple changes, even if half the players have already started. If I knew a stud was out before lock, I would probably upgrade the C or one of the guard positions. I wouldn’t just swap a stud player with a similarly priced player and be done with it.

    It’s not that important for me that pros could make big changes across multiple lineups. Why would that matter? If you enter a contest with 20K entrants, and 30% of the entries are eliminated on the spot because a chalky player was ruled out 3 minutes before tipoff, don’t you still have to compete with 14,000 other entries? Your odds of landing somewhere in the top 10 would only slightly improve, for all intents and purposes.

  • mtdurham

    @damionismyname said...

    dude also basically says MLB dfs is easier than NBA which is total bs. he is just one of those guys who is too lazy to pay attention and wants to try his hand at a big payday with minimal effort. Casual = lazy and not sure why you guys are bitching when you will have 3 other slates to play. If you cant watch news and have kids and all that then sorry. Some ppl work on Sunday and cant watch football either.

    Obviously you didn’t watch the video. He clearly states that he prefers late swap…. but acknowledges that it is horrific for the casual player.

    Not surprising that someone who cant follow the conversation can’t be bothered to listen to the video either

  • mtdurham

    @damionismyname said...

    maybe he should not play NBA slates that compromise his relationship. You guys want everyone else to cater to your family/relationship needs when you can invest in other options. You want the system to work around your personal life.

    I don’t have a “personal life”. I don’t have a “relationship”. I don’t care about anyone catering me because I’m oblivious to other people in the first place. I shop for groceries after midnight to avoid having to stop at red lights, stand in line, or say excuse me as I ascertain if I want 3 lbs of reduced price 93% lean ground beef or freshly packaged 96% lean ground beef. When I see another woman i look them in the eye and give them blue steel. That way either they talk to me or they are left wondering why I didnt talk to them. Give an inch she’ll take a mile, but give her eight you’ll make her smile.

    i dont leave the house unless i have to. That’s what keeps me from relapsing, thats what keeps me out of halfway houses, drug dens, and jail. I play DFS to get away from the world and give myself an excuse to spend 4 hours stringing together lineups and 4 hours getting drunk watching them lose. It’s worth it to me because I have some sense of hope, I don’t have to set an alarm clock, I enjoy it, and it’s extremely easy compared to lifting rocks all day, standing on a roof, talking to the general public on the phone, or telling people lies to get them to buy your product. DFS is an outlet for most people. If I wanted to work my butt off all day AND night I’d get a job in a corporation again. The problem with that is you can’t hit on women you work with aggressively anymore so I wouldnt last three weeks and most of the incentive to wear nice ties is gone if there’s no real payoff. Also You need 90 days or 1,000 calendar years to be eligible to contribute……and 3-7 years to be vested in the company match in your 401k plan depending on whether they implement cliff or a graded vesting system. Zero chance I can accumulate that at my age because I’ll either be dead,. bored, or your worst nightmare faster than that length of time has a chance to play itself out.

    I have absolutely no intention of working my butt off just to win $14.87 in DFS on average every night with no chance to ever win big.

    This is my ticket out. A few years ago i ran up $35,000 worth of credit card debt traveling the country and partying. When the time came to pay the piper i just moved off the grid. Credit card companies can’t really do anything. Its unsecured debt. I offered them 20 cents on the dollar (fair offer if you ask me) and they refused. I counter offered with ok fine ill give you 20 cents on the dollar now, or nothing ever…. they laughed…they didnt know who they were dealing with….3.5 years later Ive already got $10,000 worth of credit line and i went to the gym a bunch of times a few months ago so i could probably find a girl again who has her dad’s credit card if push came to shove. Just because I started college the year this year’s crop of college freshman were born doesn’t mean I couldnt/shouldnt/or wouldnt marry them tomorrow with the right financial incentives in place. That’s how i saved up my first $100k in the first place…by never spending my paychecks, renting a few bedrooms in my house out, not paying taxes (legally), putting big purchases on other peoples credit cards, and playing cards with idiots.

    I can tell you that I will not be playing these impossible slates that require me to work all day and night if I can’t win any money ever. If i wanted to work all day and night I’d get a job. Much like if I was scared I’d get a dog.

    People voted that they wanted something? WHo cares? Ask 1,000 six year olds if they’d prefer to eat pizza and cookies every day for the rest of their life and they’d probably overwhelmingly vote yes. Ask a 7 year old if they’d like to marry Michelle Pfeiffer in 1989 after she played Vicki Vale in Batman the movie and they’d probably overwhelmingly say yes. Not realizing that women age like milk and she’d be a has been by the time they hit puberty.

    People voted they wanted bailouts in 2008 not realizing it would send us into a 10 year economic slump…. people loved Franklinm D Roosevelt not realizing he was the most harmful president the USA has ever had. People who weigh 285 lbs eat fistfuls of peanuts at their desk and tell themselves they are “healthy fats”. People drive 30 miles across town to save $0.08 a gallon on gas and tell themselves they got a good deal. People ignore facts and evidence to the contrary when it conflicts with their beliefs…. That’s scientifically proven. Women go to belks with 30% off coupons and buy themselves a purple purse that doesnt match their wardrobe and claim to be “saving money” with their coupon. People watch an 8 minute video on how to lay down vinyl flooring on youtube then convince themselves they don’t need to hire anyone for the job.

    People don’t know anything. Collectively, People lack intellect, ambition, and intuition.

    The people who “get it” are supposed to draw people’s attention to issues. Knowing that 95% people will tune them out and stay married to their ill gotten beliefs… but that the 5% who actually have some semblance of understanding have the resources, time, knowledge to take a stand and save people from themselves.

    That’s what the Draftkings “player iniative” is all about , right? Saving people from themselves….. So why are you shifting the focus away from protecting the consumer, the casual players, the newcomers, etc…. It’s not Draftkings job to provide an angle where experts can game the system to take everyone’s money. Just as it’s not draftkings job to turn this into a massive game of Bingo where skill is no longer necessary whatsoever (see: Fanduel)…. Draftkings job is to grow revenues….which starts with making a competitive, balanced, fair gambling landscape for everyone. At the very least a player should have a CHANCE to win and understand what he’s up against each night. You don’t see casual players arguing htey should be given an unfair advantage against professional players…. but there does seem to be a bit of alignment between the corporation speak “well we carefully worded a bias question so that most players would begin to think we’re giving them what they want!” It’s a dirty and shameful tactic IMO.

    Besdies integrity, reality, and all of those other things no one cares about…..You’re going to lose customers faster with late swap than you could ever hope to acquire with multi million dollar advertising campaigns. The DFS landscape is maturing rapidly, every company is having trouble attaining profitability, retaining current customer base, and growing revenues/new subscribers…

    Don’t worry, This will hasten your problems. If you want to give me 750:1 odds on this causing massive loss in NBA revenue by year end I’ve got $110 i’m willing to bet on it. Just make sure you don’t reneg on the $86,200 I win the way Fanduel tried to squelch on their bets this week.

    You know how the saying goes…. You build one bridge, they may not call you a bridgebuilder……. but you _____ one _____ they will call you a “Blank Blanker”

  • mtdurham

    @bigez952 said...

    I didn’t get that out of the video. I thought he explained that the NBA is the easiest sport for the ones who are good at it due to the smallest range of outcomes on a day to day basis. It is the one sport where there is the largest edge to be dominated by a smaller % of users due to the lack of variance that is seen in MLB and NFL.

    So if your great at the NBA which is sounds like you are this is a great thing for you. I wouldn’t really say casual = lazy as some of us just have different priorities in life which is ok. For me the critical 3 hours that are needed for the NBA is my time with my kids which I wouldn’t want to give up. Since I primarily only play Draftkings and have spent so much time playing DFS the last 3 years I am looking forward to just taking a 4 month break from January to April.

    AKA… you’ve had concerns/reservations over the past few months/years about how much time DFS was taking away from your family, other hobbies, etc…. and now that DK has decided to double/triple the time commitment needed while drastically reducing the chances of you ever winning enough money to even drive a ’97 Volvo to the state capitol and tour the local musems with your winnings…. suddenly you aren’t 100% committed to continuing to play.

    They’re giving everyone the excuse they need or were looking for to walk away. Temporarily for certain,and forever in most cases.

  • gaelicgirl

    @mtdurham said...

    I don’t have a “relationship”

  • Whacko

    Kinda confused on the Philosophical wall of text above but so be it….

    The fact of the matter is that DK decided to revert back to their model, not shocked or surprised after the huge outcry last year.

    I’m glad that this is happening since my schedule varies. Now I can somewhat balance my time accordingly.
    I might not have a chance while going against the mass entry guys but I sure will be able to enjoy the attempt to do so.

  • CUTiger81

    First, TL;DR on the post above. Take that elsewhere.

    Second, this is a really short-sighted decision by DK and one where, yet again, they’re only concerned with the high stakes player. I would almost guarantee that less than 5% of unique users in an given contest actually use late swap on a nightly basis (barring a chalky late scratch). At the end of the day, when lineups lock, they should be locked. I’ve got a wife and kids but this isn’t even about them, it’s about me giving up a huge competitive advantage because I’m not going to spend my entire night toiling over late swap decisions. Congrats Fanduel….you got some extra rake volume for this upcoming NBA season.

  • damionismyname

    @mtdurham said...

    Obviously you didn’t watch the video. He clearly states that he prefers late swap…. but acknowledges that it is horrific for the casual player.

    Not surprising that someone who cant follow the conversation can’t be bothered to listen to the video either

    Maybe you should watch the video again before you go making assumptions and fabricating false statements because nowhere in the video does he say he prefers lateswap. He actually says in the first 30 seconds he has no agenda or preference. You keep complaining about it yet you say you are a casual player. Play on fd or play turbo and late slates and stop complaining.

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