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  • colinwdrew

    • 237

      RG Overall Ranking

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      RG Tiered Ranking

    • 2020 DraftKings FHWC Champion

    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    So DK tweeted out millionaire maker ownership here http://playbook.draftkings.com/nfl/millionaire-maker-percent-owned-week-3/ which as of 230pm still includes ownership data for games that have not yet started. IMO this is a big leak and should never happen. It also seems like something that your average analyst should probably not have access too, and able to tell his buddies who is owned and who the best players have. Hey did you know that CSURAM has Randall Cobb going late? Given that they can access the macro results it seems probable they can access specific users during and/or before contests start.

    They definitely should no be sharing it publicly, if they’re going to do it just list the full rosters in the contest and call it a day.

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    • Last Updated 3 years ago
  • milktruck

    The other thing this exposes is just how many people are compromised by taking money from FD and DK. You’ve guys hosting podcasts on DK’s payroll trying to talk about this. It’s like asking the NFL to cover the NFL impartially.

  • gaelicgirl

    Like AndThisGuyPeedOnIt said on einars’ Tinfoil hat subforum,
    “How many tin foil hat conspiracy theories turned out to be true recently?
    Scripting
    Employee lineup access
    Just waiting for the next one to drop.”
    All of these recent revelations about employees of sites suddenly winning big looks very bad. If this information becomes widely known, most rational people will infer that something shady is going on with DFS. For those of us who were disappointed about the response to the scripting issue who also wondered about access to ownership percentages, we now have confirmation that site employees do have access to them before all games are locked. Site employees that are allowed to play on other sites, no less.
    The cumulative effect of all these revelations has completely turned me off to DFS. This whole industry just reeks of corruption.

  • peachfuzz

    • Blogger of the Month

    @TuscaloosaJohnny said...

    Not to in any way make light of the current DFS situation, but this is an apples and oranges comparison — the UIGEA put laws into place to prohibit banking transactions related to online poker while specifically legalizing daily fantasy sports.

    Actually, I would consider it to be more of a variety of insider collusion whereas the typical player does not have a similar advantage therefore making it gambling, and thereby falling under the part of the UIGEA which states that it:

    “prohibits gambling businesses from knowingly accepting payments in connection with the participation of another person in a bet or wager that involves the use of the Internet and that is unlawful under any federal or state law.”

    I’m not really saying anything one way, or the other. What I did say is that this is the type of thing that opens the doors for the government regulatory agencies to come in with their own formal investigations. Who knows what they will find from there?

    Like I said, I would just rather err on the side of caution until it blows over. If it ends up being a mountain out of a molehille, so be it. Unfortunately, that has not been my experience with governmental control arms in either my online gaming, or personal business lives.

  • dude_abides7

    @jeffreybuckets said...

    Just a question: Does DK have a PR department or an outside firm on the payroll?

    Yes, he goes by the user “einars” on RG and can be found on this thread.

    Full discloser: Probably not true, but sure fooled me.

  • jeffreybuckets

    My only thought was that a good pr firm would have got ahead of this and not let it snowball to what it has become.

  • milktruck

    @dude_abides7 said...

    Yes, he goes by the user “einars” on RG and can be found on this thread.

    Full discloser: Probably not true, but sure fooled me.

    It’s all fun and games until that joke gets you sued.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 855

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    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @mchin1027 said...

    And then you have someone like Cal, the co-founder of the biggest freaking DFS community trying to suggest that this data wouldn’t even be valuable:

    Let me clarify my stance.

    CKamin’s third paragraph here touches on what I think is the biggest concern in this discussion:

    https://rotogrinders.com/threads/draftkings-ownership-leak-850584?page=8#reply-864997

    Ownership percentage is also important. Knowing ownership percentages when creating lineups definitely has value to DFS players. That’s why we post the Thursday Field Report based off of Fanduel ownership percentages in Thursday lock games.

    My point in the post that you quoted goes back to the narrative that Ethan finished 2nd in the Fanduel Million with the help of DK ownership data. It’s a major stretch that I think diminishes the rationality of this discussion. There is really strong discussion going here that will help effect positive change, but it’s mixed right in with fast and loose speculation. I’d like to get more of the former and less of the latter.

    Edit: Dan’s podcast today also does a great job with this issue. Starts at the 2 minute mark.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @milktruck said...

    You really don’t see the problem with someone setting salaries on one site then making hundreds of thousands off the similar pricing function at another site?

    Really hope you don’t work in finance.

    Do I see a problem with it? I am not sure where I stand on that. Everyone has advantages throughout life due to what they know, life experiences, etc. For what I can tell, someone like MaxDalury is a super smart, computer/tech guy. He can build algorithms and scripts that I would never have a clue how to build. I’m positive if I took my projections and put them into his algorithm/script, I would be more successful. But is it his fault that he is capable of doing that and 99% of others are not? Should he not be allowed to play because his knowledge gives him a competitive advantage?

    PetrGibbons obviously understands the ins and outs of how salaries are set. But can he predict the future? No. He still has to put lineups together based on future events. He also would have to trust that Fanduel pricing is more efficient than Draftkings to find inequalities in the pricing. Does his knowledge base from working at Fanduel help him? I’m sure of it. Is it unfair that he plays? I’m not sure I can definitely say that, although I can see the argument from both sides. Employees have always been allowed to play on other sites since I started playing DFS back in 2011/2012. I guess I’m just used to it.

    But yes, I am in finance.

  • rainbowtroutman

    @gaelicgirl said...

    The cumulative effect of all these revelations has completely turned me off to DFS. This whole industry just reeks of corruption.

    THIS

  • Jsue

    2015 DraftKings FBWC Qualifer

    @rainbowtroutman said...

    THIS

    x 2

  • einars

    @Cal said...

    It’s a major stretch that I think diminishes the rationality of this discussion. There is really strong discussion going here that will help effect positive change, but it’s mixed right in with fast and loose speculation.

    ^^^

  • vandys

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    Do I see a problem with it? I am not sure where I stand on that. Everyone has advantages throughout life due to what they know, life experiences, etc. For what I can tell, someone like MaxDalury is a super smart, computer/tech guy. He can build algorithms and scripts that I would never have a clue how to build. I’m positive if I took my projections and put them into his algorithm/script, I would be more successful. But is it his fault that he is capable of doing that and 99% of others are not? Should he not be allowed to play because his knowledge gives him a competitive advantage?

    PetrGibbons obviously understands the ins and outs of how salaries are set. But can he predict the future? No. He still has to put lineups together based on future events. He also would have to trust that Fanduel pricing is more efficient than Draftkings to find inequalities in the pricing. Does his knowledge base from working at Fanduel help him? I’m sure of it. Is it unfair that he plays? I’m not sure I can definitely say that, although I can see the argument from both sides.

    But yes, I am in finance.

    If you do not see the difference between building your own algo based on publicly available information and using private ownership percentages then I don’t know how to help you.

  • SouthernShield

    Stuff needs to be fixed. Employees shouldn’t be playing DFS.

    I will keep playing. 99% will keep playing. Therefore, nothing will get changed.

  • crazypaul

    I can see why people are going a little on the conspiracy theory side with this issue. We dont know anything that DK or FD dont tell us directly, so how can we trust it?

    However, I think people need to realize the real issue here isn’t the person & event that happened last weekend that brought this issue to light. The real issues are 1) Who has access to lineups/ownership percentages/player win loss records, 2) When do they have access to this information (pre-lock, post lock, after contests end), and 3) Should players with access to this information be allowed to play DFS on any site?

    Without definitive answers to those questions & neutral oversight/regulation, the accusations by conspiracy theorists will continue because nothing they say can actually be dis-proven.

  • Unico10

    • 584

      RG Overall Ranking

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    PetrGibbons obviously understands the ins and outs of how salaries are set. But can he predict the future? No.

    But does he needs to predict the future?

  • hokie2009

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    Do I see a problem with it? I am not sure where I stand on that. Everyone has advantages throughout life due to what they know, life experiences, etc. For what I can tell, someone like MaxDalury is a super smart, computer/tech guy. He can build algorithms and scripts that I would never have a clue how to build. I’m positive if I took my projections and put them into his algorithm/script, I would be more successful. But is it his fault that he is capable of doing that and 99% of others are not? Should he not be allowed to play because his knowledge gives him a competitive advantage?

    PetrGibbons obviously understands the ins and outs of how salaries are set. But can he predict the future? No. He still has to put lineups together based on future events. He also would have to trust that Fanduel pricing is more efficient than Draftkings to find inequalities in the pricing. Does his knowledge base from working at Fanduel help him? I’m sure of it. Is it unfair that he plays? I’m not sure I can definitely say that, although I can see the argument from both sides. Employees have always been allowed to play on other sites since I started playing DFS back in 2011/2012. I guess I’m just used to it.

    But yes, I am in finance.

    I would imagine … that the pricing algorithm is, a given % based on good hard analytical trend-based data, good hard stats, etc., and that there is a certain percent that is dedicated to something like, making the salaries jive with player popularity.

    I’m not explaining it well – but it would be a huge advantage. The thing that we are all trying to find, every day, is players who are priced higher than they should be – probably because they are more popular, either due being on a hot streak, or perceived advantages that don’t actually exist, etc. …

    I guess a blatant example would be Tiger Woods in PGA. For weeks he was priced higher than any measure of performance going back multiple years would dictate. Somewhere in their algorithm, they insert a “correction” for something correlated to popularity – likely tied strongly to vegas lines, which have some correlation to popularity.

    So my point is – if you knew going in which players had their prices raised $100 or a few $100 because of something in the algo that was not related to actual performance – but related to PERCEPTION … then that would be a great edge I’d say, a huge shortcut, the kind of thing that we sit here and read articles all day and run our own projections and number crunches – to try to identify as many pricing discrepencies as possible in order to use guys or avoid guys in our lineups.

    This guy would have a list, straight-up, at his disposal every day for every contest.

    Not sure if I’m explaining it properly or if I even want to get involved in this discussion –

    but the point is – do not underestimate the propensity for having a HUGE edge based on having an insider position at one of these companies. The ownerships thing with Ethan, that particular situation, as Cal has pointed out, is merely a red herring to the actual discussion here.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @vandys said...

    If you do not see the difference between building your own algo based on publicly available information and using private ownership percentages then I don’t know how to help you.

    Who said he can see private ownership percentages? You do not know that. He helps build the salaries for Fanduel to build their future contests. Where does it say anywhere that he can see ownership percentages prior to lineup lock? I think a lot of people are just jumping to conclusions. We do not know what employees have access to what information.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @crazypaul said...

    I can see why people are going a little on the conspiracy theory side with this issue. We dont know anything that DK or FD dont tell us directly, so how can we trust it?

    However, I think people need to realize the real issue here isn’t the person & event that happened last weekend that brought this issue to light. The real issues are 1) Who has access to lineups/ownership percentages/player win loss records, 2) When do they have access to this information (pre-lock, post lock, after contests end), and 3) Should players with access to this information be allowed to play DFS on any site?

    Without definitive answers to those questions & neutral oversight/regulation, the accusations by conspiracy theorists will continue because nothing they say can actually be dis-proven.

    Well said.

  • Unico10

    • 584

      RG Overall Ranking

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    We do not know what employees have access

    EXACTLY!

  • rainbowtroutman

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    We do not know what employees have access to what information.

    That is the problem—-could be corruption— could not be corruption—but when $$$ is involved..

  • rregan00

    I think having access to info that the public does not have access to is the issue. MaxDalury is a very smart and lucky guy to win as much as he does. He shouldnt be punished for how he does his analysis. If he got access to “insider” information (i.e. read like stock trading), then that is not okay. If I trade stocks based on info I had that normal people do not have access to then that is illegal and ethically wrong. While this isnt illegal, it is ethically wrong. Its not info that normal people dont use, its the info they cant use because its proprietary in nature to the system.

    I think anytime an employee brings heat upon their company, you have to let them go. In this situation we are just inviting the government to step in and ruin what we have. Maybe its a good thing in the long run. If they (DK and FD) take the swift stance and fire Ethan or whoever had access, it looks like they are taking it seriously. And let me tell you, the government just wants their cut. When it looks like you are hiding something or refusing to address an important matter, they think you are not giving them enough money. Thats just how our government works. It runs on money. You can scream till you are blue in the face that you are doing everything by the book, but to the government it looks like you are guilty of something.

    This is not a target Ethan thing. Its not his fault if this was unintentional and an accident. But accidents have a way of screwing over a lot of people. The ripple effect of this is huge. Add in the millions of dollars of advertising, these sites are just asking for scrutiny. They have to focus on the integrity of the game. Its the wild west of daily fantasy sports. There will be law in these parts eventually. If I was in his shoes, I would be pissed (rightfully so to have your name in the press), but accept it because of the circumstances. There is always someone to take the bullet.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @rainbowtroutman said...

    That is the problem—-could be corruption— could not be corruption—but when $$$ in involved..

    Oh i completely agree. The sites need to tell us exactly who has what information available to them. If someone like PetrGibbons can see current real time ownership percentages or look at lineups of players on Fanduel before lineup lock, then he absolutely should not be playing on Draftkings. But again, we do not know what “advantage” he has outside of just knowing the inner workings of how one site creates their pricing.

    Also, even if the sites do tell us exactly who has the ability to see what information, we still would have hundreds of people on here saying they don’t believe them or that they are just hiding something. Other than a 3rd party auditor/regulator, I do not know if we could ever stop the often legitimate concerns and other times conspiracy theories we see in these forums. Even with auditors, Enron had Arthur Andersen….

  • LarryLegend33

    @dude_abides7 said...

    Cal – With respect, isn’t this EXACTLY what they did with the scripting debacle? I’m sorry dude, but having the 2 largest industry leaders combining forces to manifest a statement to cover their ass is certainly NOT a “good thing”. I repeat, not a good thing at all.

    The word ‘collusion’ comes to mind

  • hokie2009

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    Who said he can see private ownership percentages? You do not know that. He helps build the salaries for Fanduel to build their future contests. Where does it say anywhere that he can see ownership percentages prior to lineup lock? I think a lot of people are just jumping to conclusions. We do not know what employees have access to what information.

    I agree there is rampant speculation at this point … and nobody can say for sure … but really to me, the stink is there, I think this is an area that DK and FD decided wasn’t worth spending money on until they were forced to. I mean from a sheer business perspective with no ethics – there is/was absolutely no reason to spend money regulating something that there is nobody there to tell you you have to regulate it. Virtually every business operates this way, for better or worse. They spend money on “safety” stuff when they are FORCED to, usually by government regulations.

    So, nobody knows for sure what employees have access to what, and when. But I think it’s fair to say, if the guy writing the DK playbook article got data he shouldn’t have had … it truly is a pandora’s box. I am fairly confident that the guy who is working on fanduel daily salaries … has access to pretty much anything he wants, and they put in the rule that he can’t play on fanduel, and called it a day.

    I’m surely playing devil’s advocate a little bit … but I think from that last statement it’s clear that they basically have “policies” saying “you can’t do this, and you can’t do that” and maybe some very basic protections against employees registering on the site and MAYBE household members – but beyond that, …. I’d be SHOCKED.

    So, we could wait and see, but I am also confident that we will never truly know. An entity does not exist that can present unbiased information on this topic.

    So in the interim, I guess you could call it speculation or jumping to conclusions, but I think all we’ve got available to us is to follow some logical progressions and try to fill in the blanks on what we DO know – and the picture is NOT pretty. It is downright horrible.

    I think it’s very reasonable to come to that conclusion.

  • mrchuffy

    Funny now you can’t find petrgibbions profile on RG…

    **Edit – never mind I was able to find it on google maybe the search function on RG doesn’t work on my iPad.

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