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  • colinwdrew

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    So DK tweeted out millionaire maker ownership here http://playbook.draftkings.com/nfl/millionaire-maker-percent-owned-week-3/ which as of 230pm still includes ownership data for games that have not yet started. IMO this is a big leak and should never happen. It also seems like something that your average analyst should probably not have access too, and able to tell his buddies who is owned and who the best players have. Hey did you know that CSURAM has Randall Cobb going late? Given that they can access the macro results it seems probable they can access specific users during and/or before contests start.

    They definitely should no be sharing it publicly, if they’re going to do it just list the full rosters in the contest and call it a day.

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  • blackcloud420

    @stoptheinsanity said...

    I think you missed the part where we know for a fact he had access because he accidentally tweeted out the percentages prior to the Monday night game. DK has late swap. Those players were not locked. It’s not a witch hunt without proof. LOL. There is proof.

    Bingo.

  • xandamere

    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    You honestly still think he didn’t have this info before lock?

    Yes, because DK has said they don’t. I don’t see any reason to disbelieve aside from the general tinfoil hat, conspiracy theory stuff.

    Until I see some sort of proof that he had this information before the lock, I’m not going to go on a witch hunt.

  • stevietpfl

    Morning Grind co-host, Lead NASCAR Analyst

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    I see a lot that happens with this industry, and I spend more time on these forums than anyone else.

    I think a few questions need to be answered before we all start making accusations.

    1. When was Ethan given this info (by the sounds of it, it was after the 1pm lock).

    2. Who is seeing lineups and player percentages on these sites before lock.

    3. What are sites doing to prevent this info from getting out.

  • soopra

    Any word from DK on this? I saw what Ethan posted earlier but it would be good to hear from someone else besides Ethan. This story is gaining a lot of of traction on Reddit and Twitter (e.g. Bob Voulgaris).

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    @soopra said...

    Any word from DK on this? I saw what Ethan posted earlier but it would be good to hear from someone else besides Ethan. This story is gaining a lot of of traction on Reddit and Twitter (e.g. Bob Voulgaris).

    I reached out to DK to comment, hopefully will have something soon. At this point it sounds like they are taking a step back to fully consider things.

  • Cal

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    @stevietpfl said...

    I see a lot that happens with this industry, and I spend more time on these forums than anyone else.

    I think a few questions need to be answered before we all start making accusations.

    1. When was Ethan given this info (by the sounds of it, it was after the 1pm lock).

    2. Who is seeing lineups and player percentages on these sites before lock.

    3. What are sites doing to prevent this info from getting out.

    These are the right questions for this discussion. I’m asking DraftKings to address this is as well.

    There are still posts working under the assumption that Ethan used DraftKings ownership data to pick his Fanduel teams before Fanduel locked. That I do not believe to be true at all – we will continue to drive that home and moderate where needed.

    Ethan told me on Sunday when I first reach out to him that he received the report well after lineups locked. He gets this report to do a DK Playbook ownership percentages article. He posted that article early accidentally, which is how it came to light that he had this information. Even though this scenario should not have ever happened, it follows logic. It’s a huge turn from there to say that he gets an ownership percentage report pre-lock and uses that to make teams on Fanduel (which, by the way, is a site that has Thursday Night Field Report ownership percentage articles posted all over the industry).

    This thread can and probably will affect positive change if it stays on focus with these three questions. If it turns into an Ethan witch hunt it will be harder to get anything good out of it.

    I’ve got a call with DK about this in a few minutes, hopefully a response from them will soon follow.

  • CrazyGabey

    @stevietpfl said...

    I see a lot that happens with this industry, and I spend more time on these forums than anyone else.

    I think a few questions need to be answered before we all start making accusations.

    1. When was Ethan given this info (by the sounds of it, it was after the 1pm lock).

    2. Who is seeing lineups and player percentages on these sites before lock.

    3. What are sites doing to prevent this info from getting out.

    These are definitely questions we all want clear answers to. It can’t stop there though.

    All those questions become non-questions if site employees are not allowed to play DFS elsewhere. That is the true solution to this.

  • reprisal

    In a game of imperfect information any asymmetry of information created by the proprietor of the game is a huge concern for anyone playing or investing in the game. The fact that Draftkings is passing around this data in this manner is unacceptable. If DK is going to make this data available than it can easily do so using an automated process which sanitizes any privacy/business concerns and publishes it somewhere that anyone can access/analyze it at an appropriate time. After its available to the general public (say on github.com or from a DK data feed), the writers on DK playbook can write their articles. Anyone who has access to data of this nature before its publicly available or access to data that is only selectively available for technical, quality assurance or financial reasons needs to be under much stricter policies and more scrutiny.

  • Cal

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    @yeahthisiscuddy said...

    I have to say I’m troubled by the recent tendency of Rotogrinders staff to jump to the defense of these sites in the face of obvious condemning evidence. It’s happened in a few threads now. I understand the relationship with the sites is what makes you money, but I think you owe it to your community to be a little more skeptical.

    I think we owe it to the community to keep this conversation constructive and make sure it is not over run with false speculation and incorrect statements.

  • deactivated70850

    This discussion brings forth so many great points. My questions are more geared towards the sites and they aren’t really geared towards any one individual in particular. For instance, when does this information become available to employees? Does this leave a bad impression on the industry?

    Also, It makes you question the company’s integrity. Please, keep us posted Cal and company; it’s an interesting discussion that needs to talked about going forward – to bring out the grey areas and make people believe in a company’s word more often, rather than the word of journalists who are spreading this like wildfire.

  • rgyanks

    Definitely want to hear from DK on how this happened and what they are doing to prevent it in the future. But for those claiming cheating or conspiracy, how is knowing DK overall ownership more valuable than knowing FD ownership from Thursday? And that is on top of the question of when he actually got the information (possibly after lock on FD).

  • Cal

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    Spoke with Matt Kalish, one of the founders of DraftKings. There is a statement coming Monday that will outline all of the procedures in place to protect this data. It sounds like there will be a couple of new policies that will completely prevent this from being an issue in the future.

    Decisions are made but they recognize this as an important issue so they are being deliberate as they prepare the statement.

  • pokerrob1970

    DraftDay BLB Finalist

    @CrazyGabey said...

    All those questions become non-questions if site employees are not allowed to play DFS elsewhere. That is the true solution to this.

    Not really. If the information is available to employees to see there will always be issues. They can easily pass that info along to friends to use on other sites or even on the site they work for and take a cut. Either limit the info to a site owner that has no reason to share it or just accept that this happens and there is nothing that can be done

  • PigskinaBlanket

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    This may sound dumb even to me as soon as I posted – but what if Live Ownership percentages were made available to everyone……they update as you enter/modify……

  • reprisal

    @pokerrob1970 said...

    Not really. If the information is available to employees to see there will always be issues. They can easily pass that info along to friends to use on other sites or even on the site they work for and take a cut. Either limit the info to a site owner that has no reason to share it or just accept that this happens and there is nothing that can be done

    That’s overly simplistic. The information like this can be stored with moderate security measures and policies in place that limit access to it. People employed by Draftkings who have access to the keys in anyway are likely to comply with the idea of the policy because they will be at threat of losing their job and perhaps other legal recourse if suspected or caught. There is a reasons we as a society build fences that can be climbed over and put locks on our house doors even though they can easily be kicked down or cut through.

  • Frickman81

    @PigskinaBlanket said...

    This may sound dumb even to me as soon as I posted – but what if Live Ownership percentages were made available to everyone……they update as you enter/modify……

    ya thats really the only way around it. no matter what people will have access to this info, and if they cant play im sure their friends or family would be happy to help. i dont know why everyone is so shocked, but at least the players still gotta play unlike the poker scam

  • RipCity21

    The fact that Cal is so insistent on taking Ethan for his word is very worrisome… If I were Ethan, and build my lineups knowing the ownership percentages, know what I would say? Exactly what he did…
    “Oh I didn’t have access until after lock, I just needed it to write my article” …. How convenient, right?
    Let’s be real, DFS employees should never have access to this info before it becomes public, and I don’t think they should be able to play DFS on other sites regardless….
    If Ethan isn’t guilty of seeing it before lock, how can they prove this? Other than “taking him on his word” as several “pros” and the owner of RG seems insistent on doing over and over

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    @RipCity21 said...

    The fact that Cal is so insistent on taking Ethan for his word is very worrisome… If I were Ethan, and build my lineups knowing the ownership percentages, know what I would say? Exactly what he did…
    “Oh I didn’t have access until after lock, I just needed it to write my article” …. How convenient, right?
    Let’s be real, DFS employees should never have access to this info before it becomes public, and I don’t think they should be able to play DFS on other sites regardless….
    If Ethan isn’t guilty of seeing it before lock, how can they prove this? Other than “taking him on his word” as several “pros” and the owner of RG seems insistent on doing over and over

    I know Ethan well. His first job in the industry was with RotoGrinders and he actually worked out of the office with us in Nashville before moving back to Boston and taking a job with DK. I believe him, and his story follows logic, so I will stand by it.

    The conspiracy theory minded crowd will probably take that as even more alarming evidence of an RG cover up, so not sure that information helps.

    Kalish looked at the logs and confirmed that Ethan’s report was queried around 2 ET. Again, this is probably not going to help with the conspiracy theory minded crowd because they will think “what else would DK say?”

  • CoronaLime

    This is a black eye for the DFS industry. Along with rumors of employees from sites, playing on other sites, and having won hundreds of thousands of dollars. A few in particular, consistently winning big money. I asked about this once in chat, and no one seemed to think it was possible employees would have access to ownership %‘s before lock. Of course having access to real-time ownership %‘s is an “inside edge.” I don’t think it is just a coincidence that employees from these sites have such a large winning % and many big scores. How do these sites worth this much money, allow this to happen. If people stop trusting that games are being played on a level field, they will stop playing.

    Someone needs to start explaining what REALLY happened here, and how long it’s been happening, and exactly what info these employees have access to beforehand… and quickly!

  • cb35

    2013 FFFC Finalist, 2013 DFFC Finalist

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    I’m not sure the ownership percentages are a big secret in the first place – the dopes over at FD provide you the percentages in the thursday contests – several sites including RG run a report/article based on those thursday percentages. Everyone knew Dalton would be low owned – I also saw Hurns speculated as a top GPP play mainly over at football guys. Where is the big surprise in his roster and the % plays? We already have that data.

    The main problem here is the sites now want to administer the games and also get into the tout / analysis game. This is where potential issues arise. Ethan is writing an article for DK that shouldn’t be on that site.

    Ethan is fine and did nothing wrong. DK and FD want you to play on their site and they want to charge for their “incentives” like analysis. DK hasn’t (yet) but FD just launched their numbersfire “tout” service. Must be nice but this is the potential pitfall because the data is very valuable. Anyone with access to the data and is a successful player will be looked at skeptically. That is just the way of the world.

  • Cal

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    @CoronaLime said...

    This is a black eye for the DFS industry. Along with rumors of employees from sites, playing on other sites, and having won hundreds of thousands of dollars. A few in particular, consistently winning big money. I asked about this once in chat, and no one seemed to think it was possible employees would have access to ownership %‘s before lock. Of course having access to real-time ownership %‘s is an “inside edge.” I don’t think it is just a coincidence that employees from these sites have such a large winning % and many big scores. How do these sites worth this much money, allow this to happen. If people stop trusting that games are being played on a level field, they will stop playing.

    Someone needs to start explaining what REALLY happened here, and how long it’s been happening, and exactly what info these employees have access to beforehand… and quickly!

    Kalish told me the statement Monday will detail how this information is currently protected from employees. It will also detail new policies for employess playing on other sites that will make everyone much more comfortable.

  • LeoTPP

    RG Associate Editor

    I don’t think “Ethan in Week 3” is an issue we need to debate. We’ll never know what exactly happened unless he confesses he was in the wrong and used the data. He’s not going to un-win his money from this past week, or any other week, unless he confesses to a breach of a contract or terms of service.

    The important issue to discuss is what this says about people with access to data in the industry, and what their role and responsibility should be. This cat is out of the bag and cannot be put back in. At some point, we now have to consider… do those who work at DFS sites have data that could give them an unfair advantage? You cannot say ‘No’ to that question anymore, and it’s honestly got more evidence for than against it after this weekend.

    If you want to witch hunt for Ethan, be my guest, but I suspect that quite literally no one in this thread has evidence against him outside of the article in question, which is only proof of access, and not proof of use, to data that would give him an advantage.

    Otherwise, we need to have a bigger discussion that stops this from happening in the future, and removes the doubt from the conversation. No one is going to post a hot enough take on these forums to take back Ethan’s money. But we can possibly post concerns and express doubts that lead to honest change in an industry that is going to go through a ton of legal analysis and possibly reformation and regulation in the future.

  • Redskins4

    Talk about a brain fart publishing that early, I would get fired for doing something like that.

  • Loveyduvey50

    I don’t know what is worse, the ineptitude of Ethan or the fact that it is so easy to cheat with this information “randomly” floating around. I would not be shocked at all if people on the inside have been playing with knowing ownership percentages.

  • reprisal

    @LeoTPP said...

    I don’t think “Ethan in Week 3” is an issue we need to debate. We’ll never know what exactly happened unless he confesses he was in the wrong and used the data.

    Pretty much this. Perhaps this is an issue that Draftkings and/or Fan Duel should explore further and its not a question that we should simply brush under the rug and not consider. But its unclear that anything wrong actually took place and what it would mean if there was inappropriate behavior.

    However, there is much clearer evidence that Draftkings allowed for something that would potentially enable such transgressions. If Draftkings and the industries response doesn’t satisfy you that they are taking this seriously and correcting any flaws than you should seriously consider withdrawing your balance and never playing there again

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