INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 510

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x3

      2019 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    Today DraftKings took a huge step forward in clarifying what type of play is allowed/not allowed.

    Check out the Community Guidelines page here, complete with a clear design and examples.

    I had a call with DK on this just a couple of hours ago. They mentioned this is phase one of this page and they are open to adding to it as new situations arise. The thing that really stood out to me here is Lineup Selling. I did not see that one coming. With lineup selling being such a public endeavor it will also be one of the easiest ones to enforce. I think we’ll see that market dry up quickly, especially if Fanduel follows suit. I asked if they could give more clarity and communication on specific punishments – they feel that would violate their privacy policy, so we probably won’t be seeing such announcements unless they change their policy. This forum will remain a place to bring potential issues to light, but there is also a direct department to report suspected abuse to now: GameIntegrity@DraftKings.com

    Let’s have a constructive conversation about these here. What do you think? Is there anything that should be added or clarified?

    Kudos to DraftKings for making this effort.

  • osuryanf

    Definitely a step in the right direction. Those of us who have never once broken these rules have nothing to worry about, but it makes the thick pocketed pro’s (not all obviously, but some) have a tighter rope as to what’s allowed. I’m all for collaborating with friends on strategy and whatnot, but using friends to have more entries shouldn’t be allowed. Period.

    Glad to see DK take the initiative, unlike Fanduel.

  • Mphst18

    So all of what Ryan and David did and Ryan described in the collusion thread was and is a violation of their community guidelines yet they took no action. So I don’t see how these new community guidelines are anything more than lip service to try to deceive regulators and lawmakers.

    They say the actively monitor for this but Rangerc is the one who found the first instance with Ragingphilip and mazwa so have little faith they are actively monitoring it even though it only took Rangerc little time to figure out and he doesn’t even have all the internal data they do.

    Lastly it appears their policy is to not inform their customers of actions taken so not sure how anyone will know if anything is ever done.

  • Texxdogg

    There should be full transparency on all players. I want to see everyone’s lineups and contests entered by clicking on their profile name. Let the community help police by noticing anomalies.

  • yogaflame

    So one site subscribes to all of the popular projection sources and runs the N top optimals for each. It offers all of those on its website for a low monthly price. Now what?

  • TheRealJosh5

    how do they stop line up sellers when a lot of them don’t have web sites and do it all on twitter, most have 2 accounts on twitter, 1 for public, and 1 private for it’s people that buy line ups from them.

  • yogaflame

    @TheRealJosh5 said...

    how do they stop line up sellers when a lot of them don’t have web sites and do it all on twitter, most have 2 accounts on twitter, 1 for public, and 1 private for it’s people that buy line ups from them.

    They aren’t targeting the sellers.

  • MRCOOKONUTS

    The one who sells the lineups or those who purchase?You cant stop lineups being sold.
    An innocent entry might have same lineup as those that have been purchased.How can this possibly be enforced?

  • jal0108

    Allowed:
    Signing up for a fantasy sports projection site and using their “lineup optimizer” to build teams using their projections.

    Not allowed:
    Any use of pre-built lineups purchased from 3rd party websites or engaging in the sale of such lineups.

    So if you pay a site x dollars a month that allows you to log in to a site & select ‘optimize’ 15 mins before lock every day to generate a lineup that is ok but if you pay a site x dollars a month that provides a lineup directly upon logging in to a site 15 mins before lock that is not?

  • LatticeProject

    the biggest knock on DFS that i’ve heard is that you are being forced to compete with extremely smart people who are running sick algos and predictive tools that the common person can’t access or doesn’t have time to build, so why would you want to build policies that further disadvantage casual players?

  • wwhis

    I applaud the effort to police the game. Scripting and so many multiple entries remain the biggest concerns for me and keep me out of all all contest where over 3 entries are allowed.

  • ColonialRampage

    I think it’s pretty easy to take lineup sellers out of business if DK wants to:

    - DK employee signs up for a lineup seller’s service – Track which accounts use the lineup being sold – Wait a user account has used one of these lineups a certain number of times (I’d guess 3 to avoid coincidence, but I’m sure they have the data to decide when it’s statistically significant) – Send e-mail to user threatening suspension and more if behavior doesn’t stop – Broadcast to all users that you’re doing this and make buying lineups an unattractive proposition

    It all comes down to how much they really want to stop this behavior.

    As a player I don’t really mind lineup selling services. I know that on a given night they might keep me off the cash line or even hit a big score from time to time, but overall I think the lineups being sold are weaker than mine so it doesn’t bother me.

    Drawing a line between lineup sellers and lineup optimizers (many of which are on subscription sites) isn’t perfectly logical, but if you ban lineup optimizers you end up with that same argument we’ve had previously about how the game tips too far in favor of people with the technical prowess to build their own.

    In the end I think that these guidelines are meant to discourage and clarify but will only enforced in the most blatant circumstances.

  • tjabchs6

    There is absolutely ZERO chance this gets enforced. I’d bet my life.

    Here’s a previous post I made a while back:

    “Those who think it’s easy to police lineup selling haven’t thought about it hard enough. There’s no way you can effectively determine (and set a cutoff/threshold when it comes to the amount of evidence in the first place) if someone who, for example, only plays 2-6 game slates is colluding – especially ones that selectively choose which nights to play based on their confidence of the options for the night. That could mean there are a lot of chalk plays, and thus a ton of overlap.

    So what is the cutoff for determining if someone is buying lineups? How many similar lineups? How many contests? How many nights in a row? How many nights within a certain time period? How many similar players within the lineup(s)? What’s the cutoff for amount of games within a slate? Maybe 7 game slates? Maybe 4 similar lineups in a 100 person 50/50? I have yet to see someone lay out a specific, definitive set of conditions and requirements that need to be met in order to show that you are buying lineups.

    It’s WAY to ambiguous to police. Obviously 25 DFS players in 100-man contests that have similar lineups for 6 straight nights with 9+ games are probably colluding, but obviously not for a 3-game slate. Especially if it’s obviously a chalky lineup. So how do you reach a definitive cutoff?

    With thousands of DFS players, there will definitely be unfair accusations – no matter what the cutoffs and requirements are.”

  • tjabchs6

    @ColonialRampage said...

    I think it’s pretty easy to take lineup sellers out of business if DK wants to:

    - DK employee signs up for a lineup seller’s service – Track which accounts use the lineup being sold – Wait a user account has used one of these lineups a certain number of times (I’d guess 3 to avoid coincidence, but I’m sure they have the data to decide when it’s statistically significant) – Send e-mail to user threatening suspension and more if behavior doesn’t stop – Broadcast to all users that you’re doing this and make buying lineups an unattractive proposition

    It all comes down to how much they really want to stop this behavior.

    As a player I don’t really mind lineup selling services. I know that on a given night they might keep me off the cash line or even hit a big score from time to time, but overall I think the lineups being sold are weaker than mine so it doesn’t bother me.

    Drawing a line between lineup sellers and lineup optimizers (many of which are on subscription sites) isn’t perfectly logical, but if you ban lineup optimizers you end up with that same argument we’ve had previously about how the game tips too far in favor of people with the technical prowess to build their own.

    In the end I think that these guidelines are meant to discourage and clarify but will only enforced in the most blatant circumstances.

    You think they would actually pay for subscriptions to all the lineup sellers? The sites will do what’s profitable and I don’t see that being profitable.

  • mberkowi

    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    You guys are making this much harder then it is. Give me DK’s database and at most, 1 day of work and I could identify many lineup purchasers/sellers with little chance of false positive. I would be sending all those players warning e-mails saying if you keep doing this, you’re banned. The question is do they really want to stop this or are the guidelines just cosmetic?

  • deactivated84892

    This is definitely a set of guidelines that needed to be visited and kudos to DK for taking steps.

    The only part that really confuses me is that it’s illegal to buy a human’s lineup but perfectly legal to buy a computer’s lineup? (Optimizer).

    The text in the guidelines I saw: “Any use of pre-built lineups purchased from 3rd party websites or engaging in the sale of such lineups.”

    Does this mean guys can simply use/offer prebuilt lineups for free? Nightly trains of free/premium optimizer lineups in a double up being legal seems slightly counterproductive.

    All in all, I’m 100% for a constructive look and to happy to see action and have reached out to DraftKings to make sure my site is in compliance and have immediately stopped posting my recommended lineups.

  • Mphst18

    Actions speak louder than words and so far the only actions that the community has seen are:

    The site will take action against you if the act you do causes a financial cost to the site ( people who take advantage of the referral system)

    The site will not take action if the act you do while against the CG and TOS causes no impact to the sites finances but does impact other players (collusion/syndicates/team play, etc)

    When their top .1 percent of players make up 60 percent of their revenue and 20 percent of that .1 percent are the ones engaging in violations of these guidelines there is no way they are going to enforce it against them.

    The revenue lost would be greater damage to their IPO then the lost revenue from players who choose not to play.

    Lastly interesting word choice of calling them guidelines as this seems to provide them flexibility in enforcement as they are just guidelines.

  • stlcardinals84

    Leading RG Analyst

    • 2018 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • 2018 DraftKings FBBWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    Actions speak louder than words and so far the only actions that the community has seen are:

    The site will take action against you if the act you do causes a financial cost to the site ( people who take advantage of the referral system)

    The site will not take action if the act you do while against the CG and TOS causes no impact to the sites finances but does impact other players (collusion/syndicates/team play, etc)

    When their top .1 percent of players make up 60 percent of their revenue and 20 percent of that .1 percent are the ones engaging in violations of these guidelines there is no way they are going to enforce it against them.

    The revenue lost would be greater damage to their IPO then the lost revenue from players who choose not to play.

    Lastly interesting word choice of calling them guidelines as this seems to provide them flexibility in enforcement as they are just guidelines.

    I don’t understand what your end game is. You say actions speak louder than words, yet all you do is the latter yourself.

    If you aren’t happy with DraftKings, just don’t play there. It’s pretty clear that you are never going to be happy with their decisions. I, for one, am growing very tired of your constant whining.

  • Mphst18

    @stlcardinals84 said...

    I don’t understand what your end game is. You say actions speak louder than words, yet all you do is the latter yourself.

    If you aren’t happy with DraftKings, just don’t play there. It’s pretty clear that you are never going to be happy with their decisions. I, for one, am growing very tired of your constant whining.

    Yes we should just let everyone else get cheated and be quiet. The end game is accountability and a dfs that is cleaned up and not praying on the individuas labeled as fish.

    And to provide you with some of your own advice ( if you don’t like it don’t play there ) if you don’t like my commentary you don’t have to comment.

  • KillaChap

    I am sure I could buy a lineup right now and no one would have any idea that I did. That part seems like a “make your small fish happy” policy.

  • KillaChap

    I personally don’t understand why people complain so much. It’s fantasy sports. It’s not real. If you’re not any good (like myself) stop playing. I haven’t deposited a nickel on DK in months because I’m not any good and I find “speaking with my money” more affective. Just like anything else, people are always going to find a way around rules. I blame the media blitz last year for all of this; DFS was far less stressful and much more enjoyable before all of the attention.

  • bigloser11

    @Mphst18 said...

    So I don’t see how these new community guidelines are anything more than lip service to try to deceive regulators and lawmakers.

    I hope that is not the case. Enforcement costs time and $$ which makes the cost of doing business higher,
    Time will tell.jm

  • Tammy409

    @WantToWinSomeMoney said...

    look at cash games with 300 guys with
    same lineup

    I’ve been playing on DraftKings since November, and I still don’t know much about how this is all to work, but I have played thousands of Lineups in all sports since I began and could count on both hands the number of times any of those lineups weren’t totally unique or maybe tied with 1 or 2 others in even 200,000 entry GPP’s … even for slates as small as the NFL Div. Rd Playoffs. Ergo; when on occasion I do well and actually have to scroll up the DK’s leaderboard instead of manning the last visible spots, I speed past what seem like hundreds of identical LU’s (or at least identical Pts/PMR’s that are likely dupes) and they speed pass me too when things happen, but I’ve always figured (at first and even now) that people just used the lineup builders on Rotowire, Rotogrinders, etc. or were the same person (which oftentimes was the case), but now that I finally have some sense of what ‘Ownership’ and ‘Chalk’ is, I assume that’s it’s all just people making the plays they are supposed to, and I thus think to myself “Thank God I don’t know what I’m doing, or else I’d probably have the same thing as all these people and they are just tying each other, so what’s the point?” …

    If what you’re stating above is true, then those are some dumb-ass people playing in cash games (Why would a guy who wasn’t skilled enter a cash game? I hear them try to sell the ‘new guy’ on cash games being safer… I just figured they were kidding or meant, ‘play in H2H’s with your buddy”, not enter those things where you have to beat guys that are good at this stuff.

  • paullrob

    What you guys are missing is that DK doesn’t have to find and punish “every user” that is buying lineups/team building/colluding.

    All they have to do is find and punish a big enough pool of players and leak those suspensions to communities like Rotogrinders. Then fear and speculation will spread like the plague throughout the industry that they are cracking down hard and they can and will find you.They used to say the same thing in the SEO community about what was impossible for Google to achieve through algorithms but they eventually figured it out and hammered us. They didn’t catch all the violators but they caught enough to put the fear into everyone and “most” people stopped.

    Its laughable for people to think DK can’t do this.

    They could do it the manual way and buy into the lineup seller subscriptions, match all users with those lineups but I honestly don’t think they even have to do that.

    They could just write a script to do the work for them and it would be more accurate than you would like it to be.

    Here is all they would have to do every night via a script running on their database.

    1. Run a script on every game being played on given night
    2. Take the highest instances of duplicate lineups in every game and list out all users with that lineup. (with a minimum number of lineups to trigger the listing… let’s say 50 duplicate lineups)
    3. Then run the script every following night and keep listing the users with those lineups for a long enough period of time to make sure this is a real pattern of violations
    4. Every week cross reference these listed accounts to find patterns of accounts who frequently have the same duplaicte lineups
    5. Calculate the percentage of games each of these users have had unique lineups versus duplicate lineups
    6. If that account had too high of a percentage of games with duplicate lineups or has too high a frequency of games with the same lineup of other accounts known to be violators they would be black listed

    Then suspend those accounts with a warning message. After their account is reinstated, continue to monitor those accounts and if they continued to violate the community guidelines, ban them.

    Not that hard to accomplish for an experienced programmer with access to DK Database.

  • sjs1890

    • 2013 DraftStreet DSBC Finalist

    @stlcardinals84 said...

    I don’t understand what your end game is. You say actions speak louder than words, yet all you do is the latter yourself.

    If you aren’t happy with DraftKings, just don’t play there. It’s pretty clear that you are never going to be happy with their decisions. I, for one, am growing very tired of your constant whining.

    Oh come on man, if it wasnt for rangerc and mphst18 this issue wouldnt have got as big as it did. Cal asked for constructive criticism, not telling people if they should play or not. If you dont like what people are saying its pretty simple dont respond. It would be nice if a DK rep could get on here and do an AMA as many of us still have lots of questions regarding this new policy.

  • glennantz

    Will FanDuel do the same thing as DraftKings?

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