INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    Today DraftKings took a huge step forward in clarifying what type of play is allowed/not allowed.

    Check out the Community Guidelines page here, complete with a clear design and examples.

    I had a call with DK on this just a couple of hours ago. They mentioned this is phase one of this page and they are open to adding to it as new situations arise. The thing that really stood out to me here is Lineup Selling. I did not see that one coming. With lineup selling being such a public endeavor it will also be one of the easiest ones to enforce. I think we’ll see that market dry up quickly, especially if Fanduel follows suit. I asked if they could give more clarity and communication on specific punishments – they feel that would violate their privacy policy, so we probably won’t be seeing such announcements unless they change their policy. This forum will remain a place to bring potential issues to light, but there is also a direct department to report suspected abuse to now: GameIntegrity@DraftKings.com

    Let’s have a constructive conversation about these here. What do you think? Is there anything that should be added or clarified?

    Kudos to DraftKings for making this effort.

  • NESBears120

    For everyone saying they are ok with lineup sellers because thats one less unique lineup to beat then think about it this way. If people who are buying lineups are doing it because they a) dont have time to do the research or b) arent good at doing the research ad finding the right plays then it will either drive those people away meaning less people to compete with, or create more fish by forcing someone who is not good at doing research to have to do it without any help.

  • bholloway

    Hey guys,

    Talked with DK co-founder Matt Kalish today and got DK’s take on some of the hot-button issues that have been talked about here recently. Here’s the story.

    We didn’t delve into specific cases, but I thought he had some interesting stuff to say (ya know, as far chats with company spokesmen go). Some takeaways:

    - DK fully expects future (and probably unforeseen) issues arising in the future. The guidelines they released this week “are not exhaustive.” Whether or not sites react swiftly and prudently (whatever that might mean) when the next controversy hits is at least equally important as vigilance, but at least maybe they won’t be caught flat-footed.

    - Policing is gonna be tough, and to some degree it’s gonna be on players to call out shenanigans. Kinda the “if you see something, say something” deal. By the way, if you see something, gameintegrity@draftkings.com is the place to take it.

  • depalma13

    It is blatantly obvious night after night who are playing identical lineups. They are to freaking lazy to even move the players around in the lineup card.

  • deactivated60279

    My question is if Daut and team did the same thing tomorrow what would the punishment be? I heard they investigated the incident and by that I mean they spoke to him yet there was no known actio taken. I hate to be pessimistic but my take is this changes very little and is more about perception. I hope I’m wrong.

  • AWoo

    Will DK do anything about this?

    Tweet here:
    https://twitter.com/HowTheProsDoIt/status/764265680631848960/photo/1

    Youdacao and madoublet98 run the same h2h lineups on a 14 game slate.

  • Nosuckoutplz

    Matt’s cool. I follow him on Twitter and he’s been responsive. Also, coming from the poker world I have a lot of respect for Jon Aguiar, who may also have some words if asked. I know he understands such issues and would be able to express it well.

  • deactivated84892

    @AWoo said...

    Will DK do anything about this?

    Tweet here:
    https://twitter.com/HowTheProsDoIt/status/764265680631848960/photo/1

    Youdacao and madoublet98 run the same h2h lineups on a 14 game slate.

    Maybe they ran an optimizer lineup. Because if so, that’s 100% legal.

  • AWoo

    @gundacker said...

    Maybe they ran an optimizer lineup. Because if so, that’s 100% legal.

    They run virtually the same lineup(s) every night and have the same lineup in the 3 max Warning Track GPP on DK.

    Tweet here:
    #1 Youdacao lineup: https://twitter.com/messages/media/764276801606672387
    #2 madoublet98 lineup: https://twitter.com/messages/media/764276786062618627

  • tjabchs6

    @AWoo said...

    They run virtually the same lineup(s) every night and have the same lineup in the 3 max Warning Track GPP on DK.

    Tweet here:
    #1 Youdacao lineup: https://twitter.com/messages/media/764276801606672387
    #2 madoublet98 lineup: https://twitter.com/messages/media/764276786062618627

    But the optimizers also give everyone the same lineup (if used at the same time), right? Maybe both of those players get back home from work at 6:00 and optimize + enter lineups. Can’t really know for sure, can we?

  • awesemo

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    @bholloway said...

    - Policing is gonna be tough, and to some degree it’s gonna be on players to call out shenanigans. Kinda the “if you see something, say something” deal. By the way, if you see something, gameintegrity@draftkings.com is the place to take it.

    If Draftkings is relying on players to be policing other players maybe it would be more productive allowing players to contact other players through the Draftkings platform. I’m not sure I would feel comfortable snitching on other people, but I might feel comfortable calling them out. I’m sure other people feel the same way.

  • FFguru71

    I wish the DFS community would have two things…a smaller “max entry” limit. Like 10-20 at most. And, I wish everyone had no access to any data…just their own knowledge of that sport. I promise you that would eliminate a true chance of winning for probably 80-90% of people playing. Sure basic stats like on ESPN and stuff…but no ADVANCED data. Just your own knowledge of the players and the sport itself.

  • Unico10

    • 738

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    Confused.
    What is the difference between “snitching” and “calling them out”

    I like the perceived progress on part of DK… What I am asking myself is: “Do they truly understand there is an issue or they are just pretending to address an issue they don’t really care about but they feel is important for the community and the regulators?”

    Some stuff is there in plain sight for who wants to see it. They can do something about without anyone calling anybody out.

  • Tammy409

    @bzsports4 said...

    I mean if it makes other people feel better then I guess it is fine, but if people want to share lineups its fine by me. I would rather have to beat 1 lineup than dozens of lineups, especially in GPPs.

    Bingo. THanks for concisely and correctly articulating that which I failed to do when expressing my confusion as to why this was a problem and how I viewed it in practice rather than in principle… When I do every ‘blue moon’ have a Lineup with a prayer down the stretch, I get to look on DraftKings and see what’s going on, and there are usually an asspile of dupe Lineups (most from a series of a single dfser’s own LU just entered over and over), but I LOVE that my guy or guys get one more free throw or 2 yd. reception and suddenly I vault from 77th to 33rd or whatever. If each of the 76 Lineups ahead of mine (a fake example, but this IS how it plays out) were not duplicated, then I’d probably end up stuck somewhere near where I was. As you’ve stated, I’d rather have 5 Lineups ahead of me, 5 Left to Beat, than 75… I still struggle with this as a problem at all but certainly agree that there is no way to prove that people ‘buy things’ (why would one buy something that is being sold to others that you are to compete with… to tie them?). Why wouldn’t the guy with the ‘Guaranteed WInner’ just play it himself and be done?… It’s all just goofy this notion. The very site this discussion is taking place on will generate the ‘Optimized Lineup’ for any upcoming slate in fewer than two clicks and ten seconds from the the conclusion of this comment.

  • awesemo

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    @Unico10 said...

    What is the difference between “snitching” and “calling them out”

    Snitching being telling Draftkings about someone’s rule-breaking, and calling them out being applying some peer pressure via a private message or if they had chat in the contests.

  • Unico10

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    @awesemo said...

    Snitching being telling Draftkings about someone’s rule-breaking, and calling them out being applying some peer pressure via a private message or if they had chat in the contests.

    Fair point

  • beez1973

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    I think the bigger issue is threeman games that 2 big players sit and wait for the newbie to come along and after they take his money they split it ? When will Draft Kings address this issue ?

    So what Draft Kings is saying is we would rather people that don’t want to build there Line ups and put the time into it then they can not play ? If I use the Rotogrinders Optimizer to build a LU and twenty others do also then this is ok ? Optimizer can make a LU but a human cannot ? I can tell you all the players in a podcast but can not post it for you ?

  • Mphst18

    @Unico10 said...

    Confused.
    What is the difference between “snitching” and “calling them out”

    I like the perceived progress on part of DK… What I am asking myself is: “Do they truly understand there is an issue or they are just pretending to address an issue they don’t really care about but they feel is important for the community and the regulators?”

    Some stuff is there in plain sight for who wants to see it. They can do something about without anyone calling anybody out.

    Well said and while they know there is an issue they are ust pretending to address an issue they don’t really care about but they feel is important for the community and the regulators?”

    To get a clearer sense just email them a question to clarify if something you think is unfair play would be considered against these guidelines and wait till you see the response.

    From the response you will be able to tell this is just more selective enforcement and investigation of issues if they even happen will include looking at the revenue the violators bring to the site.

    How can the co-founder say we need the community to find these issues for us but then proclaim on their site (only for show)

    DraftKings actively monitors and investigates player behavior that may impact the integrity of the fantasy sports contests

  • edro990

    As long as there are big payouts at stake, people will continue to do anything they can to get an edge. Eliminate the big payouts and this problem would pretty much go away. I’m not advocating that, but it would be the only way to stop much of what is happening now. The sites need to band together to find a universal and effective policy that can be strictly enforced across the board and make the penalties severe. I’m just not sure they really want to, especially the Big 2.

  • bigloser11

    @edro990 said...

    As long as there are big payouts at stake, people will continue to do anything they can to get an edge.

    There is always a way around safe guards.Maybe on gpps make the top prizes less and pay the top 25 %..
    The ‘chase’ mentality ( big $$)works but leaves many losers unhappy.

  • sqwerl

    I wish DK would address the max entry and massive payouts for the GPP’s. They should structure them to be 30% payout instead of ~20%.

  • wwhis

    RE optimizers: I have The Bat. I other sites optimizers are like that a sure way to lose your money is to play the “optimal” line up. That being said it has benefits when it is tweeked. I feel individual players have better Algorithms than the ones the sites sell. I am not any kind of math or computer wizard but I had a simple one before I bought The Bat. If I can have a simple one there are many players that can have their own. I dont like so many multiple , but I understand that to have the big payouts they are necessary. I would not get in a multi entry 50/50 in any instance. Two or the players sharing info could cover most realistc possibilities.
    To me DFS is currently like being at a casino and some of the players have computerized card counters in their hands and as long as their are multi entries that is the case in my view. So I don’t play any multi entry event that cost more than a quarter. When I saw that using The BAT tweeked or not: and playing for $1 and $3 with a few entries was a way to lose more than I won. I cut my losses.
    I applaud the effort to clarify the rules and limit some abuses. Until there are more single entries I will keep my money in my pocket. Make the game skill based not algorithm based.

  • wwhis

    A Question I have that may not belong here. Are DFS standings net ( with entry fees subtracted ) or gross ( just winnings)?

  • EadesScience

    @edro990 said...

    As long as there are big payouts at stake, people will continue to do anything they can to get an edge.

    Exactly Right!

  • dmiller10nc

    @wwhis said...

    A Question I have that may not belong here. Are DFS standings net ( with entry fees subtracted ) or gross ( just winnings)?

    Net

  • dpadilla

    I wouldn’t be surprised if DK wanted to get rid of optimizers as well as lineup sellers but RG and other sites like it told them no

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