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  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    Today DraftKings took a huge step forward in clarifying what type of play is allowed/not allowed.

    Check out the Community Guidelines page here, complete with a clear design and examples.

    I had a call with DK on this just a couple of hours ago. They mentioned this is phase one of this page and they are open to adding to it as new situations arise. The thing that really stood out to me here is Lineup Selling. I did not see that one coming. With lineup selling being such a public endeavor it will also be one of the easiest ones to enforce. I think we’ll see that market dry up quickly, especially if Fanduel follows suit. I asked if they could give more clarity and communication on specific punishments – they feel that would violate their privacy policy, so we probably won’t be seeing such announcements unless they change their policy. This forum will remain a place to bring potential issues to light, but there is also a direct department to report suspected abuse to now: GameIntegrity@DraftKings.com

    Let’s have a constructive conversation about these here. What do you think? Is there anything that should be added or clarified?

    Kudos to DraftKings for making this effort.

  • Jcb890

    @gridironguru99 said...

    This is just total lip service before the big NFL season rush to attempt to harness more “fish”.

    This.

    They have already shown a willingness to change their TOS to benefit their high volume players and have shown over and over that their money is what the companies care about. DFS needs regulation and it isn’t going to come from DK or FD unless they are forced. They are going to cater to higher volume players (as they have in the past) because that is who is paying the bills.

    Look at Fan Duel, they introduced “Intermediate” games for those who didn’t fall under “Beginner” or “Experienced” players. They kept them for a couple of months during MLB season and are already doing away with them for NFL season.

    We’ll start believing this isn’t just lip service when the sites actually take some kind of action other than updating a TOS or posting a meaningless Guideline on their website which they won’t enforce or will selectively enforce.

  • coachwood

    @stlcardinals84 said...

    I don’t understand what your end game is. You say actions speak louder than words, yet all you do is the latter yourself.

    If you aren’t happy with DraftKings, just don’t play there. It’s pretty clear that you are never going to be happy with their decisions. I, for one, am growing very tired of your constant whining.

    I came back to this thread days later and for some reason this one hurts the most but also gives the most insight on the culture of dfs. The haves and have nots. Get in line or stfu mentality is kinda why the whole dfs thing was/is in lingo. If this statement came from the ESPN god, that is *l *mi*zIe I could see it, but not from the professor. I expect way more from that guy. Of course I’m ranked 6,000,000th so who gives AF right???

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    @Mphst18 said...

    On one hand I am thankful for RG providing a platform while on the other hand the incentives of RG are more alligned to the sites.

    However it is a tough sell to say everything is done for the players just like it would be a tough sell for the sites to make the same claim.

    RG shouldn’t have their administrators lock threads or post fake names when trying to identify issues players raise if they care about the players.

    Also a bit of competing thoughts with the RG board membership at the FSTA which is nothing more than a paid lobbyist for the sites wants and needs not the players. But it’s not just RG no one on that board is “independent”.

    What do you mean by “posting fake names”

    Also, you are completely clueless when it comes to the role of the FSTA board, the interactions between board members (some of which are small season long operators), and the various challenges the FSTA faces.

    You make some good contributions to this board but you also recklessly post speculation as fact. Make sure you aren’t doing the latter before hitting the “post” button in the future – if it’s speculation state it as such.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    • x4

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    @gridironguru99 said...

    This is just total lip service before the big NFL season rush to attempt to harness more “fish”. It’s toothless . If DK wanted to really do something about this, scripting would be banned (and enforced) and the hedge fund type teams that exist would be banned. Anyone playing multi entry GPP’s knows its a numbers game and you’re at a huge disadvantage. I do like the 3 max entry contests and wish DK built that out more.

    On banning scripting – is that is an issue any longer now that the scripts are available to all on DK’s site? Do you mean for DK to discontinue it’s own tools?

    For the syndicate players caught colluding, I’d love to see some accounts get banned to send a message. The burden of proof is the issue here – will they ban accounts without being able to follow the money trail?

    As for the whole thing being total lip service, keep an eye on Twitter Lineup Selling activity. I think that market will dry up in the coming weeks/months as DK enforces. There are also other changes coming.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    @SwedishFishy said...

    Too much vagueness around “lineup strategy” in my opinion for this to be widely enforceable. If I have a blog with a paywall and I write about my favorite plays (and throw in some stats) and you can build a lineup with those plays, what is the difference compared to buying the lineup?

    RotoInsiderLabs week 1 NFL premium analysis ($5/week subscription):

    This week our roster construction strategy is going to be pairing Drew Brees with Brandin Cooks + Coby Fleener (OAK DST has allowed XYZ yards per game). Then there are some really good RB values this week: Deangelo Williams (scores XYZ fpts when Bell is out) and Shaun Draughn (averages XYZ targets per game and SF should be playing catchup). Using these cheap RBs lets us pay up at WR for studs like Odell Beckham and Julio Jones. This week my strategy is to punt DST and Kicker so I’m looking at STL (low Vegas total) and a $4500 kicker. Hope this helps you when constructing your rosters with your buddies this week, good luck!

    You and Seth do a good job of highlighting how slippery this slope is.

    I’ve talked with DK more since these guidelines came out and learned that more guidelines on optimizers are coming.

    They basically want to ensure users provide some input or do some research when constructing lineups. I like this idea in theory and we’ll modify our DK tools as needed. I do worry about examples like the ones you bring up. Are cheat sheet guidelines to follow?

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

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    @RRT said...

    I’m not sure how you can confidently believe any of that. Yes, some people do not like the way RG has handled some industry issues in the past, but on the other side of that just as many people (if not more) completely agree with and see the good this community has done for DFS. There are a lot of assumptions made, and I think some people are misguided on this without actually looking into the facts when it comes to RG and partner sites.

    It wont take much searching for you to see how often Cal personally gets involved and reaches out to sites for clarification when an issue is spotted.
    If any part of RG’s tools or content were, or ever became in violation of a sites rules it would quickly be removed, and updated to fit within the rules set by the sites. Just like the bulk lineup extension, which was removed minutes after it became against site TOS.

    RG offered a free lineup builder at a time where programmers were charging thousands to create custom builders / optimizers. This was at a time while people were (rightfully) outraged that some users had access to these programs while others didn’t. RG maintains, updates, and constantly improves this tool completely free for all members. Like a lot of our content It takes nothing more than username.

    Yes, RG does have a relationship with many sites, as we and others should. This community gives all of us a place to band together and have a voice about changes we feel are important, and issues that may be need attention. Lots of positive change has been a direct result of this forum.
    So, yes I do believe in a way “everything we do is for the players”, but know that RG is a business. Our business is to provide the best tools and content for our customers as well as a place to have industry discussions like the one we are having right now. If we fail to do a good job at any of those things, we not only let our user-base down, but fail as a business. We depend on our members and have every reason to provide them with the best content available. I don’t think anyone can honestly say they would feel safer and have a voice in the industry without the platform RG provides.

    Great response Ross.

    I’ve seen others say that RG doesn’t do enough to represent the players – these guys seem to assume that almost every player has the same wants and needs as them. There are 100,000+ members here and over a million broader DFS players. Some of them want no lineup selling, some of them don’t care at all, and some actually buy the lineups. Some want no scripts, some want access to free scripts.

    RG is far from perfect and we’re clearly a business. We’ve also been the central place to discuss DFS issues for 6+ years. We’re going to keep catering to what we think is right for this community. We’re never going to make 100,000 people happy at the same time, but it’s our job and our challenge to figure out how to make as many of you guys happy as we can.

  • Mphst18

    @Cal said...

    What do you mean by “posting fake names”

    Also, you are completely clueless when it comes to the role of the FSTA board, the interactions between board members (some of which are small season long operators), and the various challenges the FSTA faces.

    You make some good contributions to this board but you also recklessly post speculation as fact. Make sure you aren’t doing the latter before hitting the “post” button in the future – if it’s speculation state it as such.

    Your admins posted fake names in a thread is what was meant by that.

    Allegedly the FSTA had no problem changing thier charter to accommodate the sites interests not the protection of players. Praising 3rd party audits for state bills on one hand and on the other hand admitting the same 3rd party audits failed FSTA member FH (if any audits were even being done or monitored by the FSTA, this is a question not a statement)

    http://www.legalsportsreport.com/8734/fsta-charter-and-dfs-regulation/

    The FSTA Claims (alledgedly falsely) it is the voice of 57 million players which is just the number of players of DFS and appears the FSTA can alledgedly just take the number of players playing and say they are the voice.

    The FSTA board resembles what bank boards used to look like (non independent directors whose interests could be different than its investors and customers) before investors and government agencies demanded independence.

  • Ross
    @Mphst18 said...

    Your admins posted fake names in a thread is what was meant by that.

    It’s posts like this that come across wrong. Just enough is said to make it look like a some type of major issue, but nothing else. Even I was confused when you posted it the first time and immediately sent you a PM for clarification This type of post with no details leaves the door open for people to think a major conspiracy is happening, when in reality its nothing more than a few jokes in a thread.

    So, lets clear it up for everyone now, and get this thread back on topic. As we discussed in the pm – here is the thread you’re referring to.

    This is a thread you started 5 months ago which had good intentions, but quickly turned into a thread many could not take seriously since the majority of it was speculation. Names of people were being added to a list team players or syndicates based off nothing more that others throwing out usernames in the thread. Nothing to back anything up, no links to contests showing proof, just names in a thread. I think you can see the issue with that, and why some joke names were thrown out.

    Many people found it odd and unreasonable to add names to a list based on others saying they were partnerships without proof. Those are big accusations, and making them on a public forum based on other peoples word with nothing to back it up is irresponsible.

  • Mphst18

    The thread identified the names of players who run identical H2H lineups and for accountability I added who submitted the names. The FACT is I have proof of all the names I listed as people who run identical cash game lineups so that if people didn’t want to play against the same lineup in different H2Hs they have a way to attempt to avoid it.

    While i do my best to then go grab multiple games against the names listed to gather factual evidence your admins actions listing fake names did nothing more than derail the thread and demean something that had good intentions for players to identify where they can avoid playing identical H2H games.

  • pepsies15

    @stlcardinals84 said...

    I don’t understand what your end game is. You say actions speak louder than words, yet all you do is the latter yourself.

    If you aren’t happy with DraftKings, just don’t play there. It’s pretty clear that you are never going to be happy with their decisions. I, for one, am growing very tired of your constant whining.

    And if you aren’t happy with his/her comments, don’t reply to them. See what i did there?

  • tvsfrink

    One does not have to reply to whining, but one does not have much choice about reading it, and that’s the annoying part.

  • Cal

    RG CoFounder & Admin

    • 235

      RG Overall Ranking

    • $1M Prize Winner

    • x4

      2015 DraftKings FFWC Finalist

    @Mphst18 said...

    Your admins posted fake names in a thread is what was meant by that.

    Allegedly the FSTA had no problem changing thier charter to accommodate the sites interests not the protection of players. Praising 3rd party audits for state bills on one hand and on the other hand admitting the same 3rd party audits failed FSTA member FH (if any audits were even being done or monitored by the FSTA, this is a question not a statement)

    http://www.legalsportsreport.com/8734/fsta-charter-and-dfs-regulation/

    The FSTA Claims (alledgedly falsely) it is the voice of 57 million players which is just the number of players of DFS and appears the FSTA can alledgedly just take the number of players playing and say they are the voice.

    The FSTA board resembles what bank boards used to look like (non independent directors whose interests could be different than its investors and customers) before investors and government agencies demanded independence.

    Let’s get this thread back on track after this and keep discussion centered on the DK community guidelines.

    FSTA is a trade association, not a player association. The acronym is Fantasy Sports Trade Association. We have 18 volunteer board members with various backgrounds, interests, and opinions and we quickly learned we’re not well equipped to enforce a charter. Looking back, it’s now clear we needed a well funded separate body focused specifically on industry self regulation or we needed government regulation. We’re getting government regulation, and we’re off to a good start in what will be a long process. The FSTA has been a key part of that effort and players will benefit. I think DFS players should be thanking the FSTA, and in particular Peter Schoenke of RotoWire – especially if they live in NY or one of the other nine states that got bills passed this year.

    To get back on track, these DraftKings community guidelines go beyond government regulations in some cases. I doubt we’ll ever see a government regulation against buying or selling a lineup, for example. This is another step in the right direction. Many of you feel these steps aren’t big enough or aren’t happening fast enough, and there is plenty of merit to that. Just remember that DK and FD are large companies under a lot of scrutiny – everything they do needs to be thoroughly vetted by multiple departments. Gone are the days when Jon Aguiar could hop in a thread as “FatalError” and discuss these policies. Everything will happen in steps and your posts on this board and emails to GameIntegrity will influence those steps.

  • stlcardinals84

    Leading RG Analyst

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    @coachwood said...

    I came back to this thread days later and for some reason this one hurts the most but also gives the most insight on the culture of dfs. The haves and have nots. Get in line or stfu mentality is kinda why the whole dfs thing was/is in lingo. If this statement came from the ESPN god, that is *l *mi*zIe I could see it, but not from the professor. I expect way more from that guy. Of course I’m ranked 6,000,000th so who gives AF right???

    That wasn’t my finest post. I’ll admit that.

    Are there things that DFS can do better? Absolutely. Look at how much the landscape has changed over the past few years. The rise of certain things and the fall of others is natural with an industry that is still in its early years. The market will change as regulations dictate, as the sites adapt, and as the player base changes. The “massive” growth days are probably over with.

    My post was not an all-encompassing attempt to push away the common man. My post was directed at one person, and I regret getting involved. Some people are not going to be happy with anything the sites do. It doesn’t matter if they try to enforce the new regulations to the high heavens – some folks won’t be happy. It’s those people whose opinions are tough to stomach.

    Anyone who is up for open-minded, two-sided dialogue is certainly an asset to DFS, and to the RG community.

    As for the DK guidelines, there is no doubt that enforcement will be difficult. The opinions are already coming out that they are “ignoring” things. I don’t think that’s the case, but it’s going to take time for everyone to get it right. Patience is a fine virtue, and hopefully in time we can all come to accept the results that come out of them. They certainly don’t HURT anything, as nothing is going to be worse than it was before, when there were no guidelines.

    I apologize if my post directed at one person offended anyone – it was certainly not my intent nor did it fit my usual manner of posting.

  • baseballs

    @stlcardinals84 said...

    That wasn’t my finest post.

    Not your best, Justin.

  • stlcardinals84

    Leading RG Analyst

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    @baseballs said...

    Not your best, Justin.

    1 person will get that, but it’s glorious. Never change, fine sir!

  • SwedishFishy

    @Cal said...

    You and Seth do a good job of highlighting how slippery this slope is.

    I’ve talked with DK more since these guidelines came out and learned that more guidelines on optimizers are coming.

    They basically want to ensure users provide some input or do some research when constructing lineups. I like this idea in theory and we’ll modify our DK tools as needed. I do worry about examples like the ones you bring up. Are cheat sheet guidelines to follow?

    I don’t envy DK but, man, I really think they are creating a huge mess for themselves here. I would step back and look at the actual problem: unfairly exceeding entry limits in contests.

    Lineup selling is hurting players the most when a 100 person 50/50 has a 20 person train using the same lineup. You can consider this as a way to circumvent the entry limit (1) by the collective. It’s not really an issue how these people got the lineup — be it from an optimizer, a lineup seller, cheatsheet, or blog — but that this group is gaining an advantage in the contest by having more entries than are permitted.

    Now, one-off instances of lineup duplication is not a strictly a problem. But if DK can detect suspicious behavior patterns among a group of players (consistent with LU selling/sharing/no player input) then those players should be flagged/warned. This type of detection is common for things like credit card fraud or even voting-rings on sites like Reddit. Overlapping with other players on a 4 game slate is fine, having the same lineup as the same 10 people for a week is not.

    Keeping the focus on circumventing entry limits also covers the other cases described (multiple “family members” max entering, two players coordinating their max entries to avoid overlap, etc). DK can still punish offending players, but they don’t need to shut down or attempt to police the entire third-party research and tool ecosystem. Players acting under good faith should be fine as there should not be any clear patterns of impropriety.

  • Avgplayer

    @Cal said...

    Let’s get this thread back on track after this and keep discussion centered on the DK community guidelines.

    FSTA is a trade association, not a player association. The acronym is Fantasy Sports Trade Association. We have 18 volunteer board members with various backgrounds, interests, and opinions and we quickly learned we’re not well equipped to enforce a charter. Looking back, it’s now clear we needed a well funded separate body focused specifically on industry self regulation or we needed government regulation. We’re getting government regulation, and we’re off to a good start in what will be a long process. The FSTA has been a key part of that effort and players will benefit. I think DFS players should be thanking the FSTA, and in particular Peter Schoenke of RotoWire – especially if they live in NY or one of the other nine states that got bills passed this year.

    To get back on track, these DraftKings community guidelines go beyond government regulations in some cases. I doubt we’ll ever see a government regulation against buying or selling a lineup, for example. This is another step in the right direction. Many of you feel these steps aren’t big enough or aren’t happening fast enough, and there is plenty of merit to that. Just remember that DK and FD are large companies under a lot of scrutiny – everything they do needs to be thoroughly vetted by multiple departments. Gone are the days when Jon Aguiar could hop in a thread as “FatalError” and discuss these policies. Everything will happen in steps and your posts on this board and emails to GameIntegrity will influence those steps.

    To be fair the reason DFS has been under pressure the past year is because of DK,FD and the FSTA. On you’re own site you can find countless threads concerning issues that were never corrected and you can go back years to find them. All of the issues came to light by the DFS players. None of the sites or the FSTA did anything proactively to correct anything. Not only that they allowed certain players to break the TOS without any repercussions.

    The FSTA has pushed back against regulation as currently as this year even after the FSTA approved site Fantasy Hub, DK leak, Channing Fyre and Head to Head scripts etc. They have and may continue to do little for the majority of their player base but they also have to realize the reason we have DFS still is not because of DK, FD ,or the FSTA it is because of the players.

    And we will still do our best to keep them honest.

  • sports_nerd

    Deciphering the terminology in the “guidelines” can be tough sometimes. Any issue with multiple users putting in the exact same lineup in double ups? With each user using the max amount of entries? Happened tonight. Before I submit the complaint, I want the communities opinion first.

  • cashmmillion

    • 2016 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    People that (i) understand DFS and (ii) are unbiased / independent know that the type of collusion that those guys did in the PGA milly maker is easily identifiable. Anyone that says that it’s impossible to tell what is technically collusion / subverting the entry limits is being lazy, and the argument that the sites would need access to people’s personal bank accounts to enforce that is a straw man. If there’s a grey area, flag the account and continue to monitor. Yes, human judgment may need to play a role – you’re not going to be able to account for and pre-determine a solution for every possible iteration of rule-breaking upfront.

    It is interesting that DK’s response is mainly geared toward lineup sellers. People that buy lineups and use them are squares; these are not the guys that are colluding to win a million dollars by using 300 lineups with exact exposures. People that buy lineups don’t even know what exposure means.

  • EadesScience

    I would like to throw in my two cents if I may. And, this is all speculation on my part and is not guaranteed to be any type of factual information. Sometimes I even make stuff up or if I actually want something factual I ask Siri.

    Since the inception of online competition there have always been those trying to gain the competitive edge and it was not money they were trying to obtain, but rather prestige or even a high rank of some sort in some instances. Safeguards were put in place to try and prevent the wrong doer from taking advantage of the clean players, but no matter what you did (Punkbuster, Gotcha, etc) the cheaters would always find a way to circumvent the rules.

    My point is that if players would try and find a way to cheat for non-monetary gains then they certainly would to make a million dollars or even a thousand dollars I would think. Sadly, human nature dictates this type of behavior when you consider past research or tendancies. I can not imagine being DK or FD and it was my responsibility to try and make the games that were 100% free of dishonesty. To tell you the truth, I do not really think that the common player has a clue of what really goes on behind the scenes of DFS. Do you? If we knew would our jaws drop? I am speculating that there are a few things going on that would make lineup selling look like changing lanes without using the turn signal or such.

    The question for me is can any problem be fixed and do the Giants really wish to fix it. Why cut the beanstalk down so that the Jacks cant climb it? I think that STLCards hit the nail on the head and I should have quoted it, but it went something like DFS is going to need regulation. In my opinion that regulation is going to need to be someone outside the industry in order for it to be somewhat effective. I assume that this will be government regulation.

    Just my two cents……..

    Ricky

  • catmando

    i wanted to start a thread “what will the next scandal be” but i know it would get deleted and not sure i want to hear the responses as some may open my eyes to things i can not even imagine. Ricky got me thinkin

  • Unico10

    • 472

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    Ok… I am bit tired of the “impossible to regulate” or “poor DK and FD how are they going to deal with this”

    1) DK and FD collect money, they store it like a bank and run contests with prize money like a casino. They need to increase the portion of capital invested for game integrity and decrease it from somewhere else if need be. They should have regulations just like a bank or an insurance company or a casino.

    2) Years ago. Probably 10-12. I was playing in an online game where players prices move like in a stock exchange (it was not NBASE)… during the day, real time. The site got pretty large and it was pretty fun. NO MONEY WAS INVOLVED.
    I opened another account and bid up players that I had in my other account.
    Do you know how long before they shut down my account? TWO HOURS

    Now, I am pretty, pretty, pretty sure that technology has improved quite a bit in the past 10-12 years…. you want me to believe that it would be HARD to identify collusion patterns?? It took RangersC a few hours and he was doing it from the outside.

    Please.

  • Jcb890

    @Unico10 said...

    Ok… I am bit tired of the “impossible to regulate” or “poor DK and FD how are they going to deal with this”

    1) DK and FD collect money, they store it like a bank and run contests with prize money like a casino. They need to increase the portion of capital invested for game integrity and decrease it from somewhere else if need be. They should have regulations just like a bank or an insurance company or a casino.

    2) Years ago. Probably 10-12. I was playing in an online game where players prices move like in a stock exchange (it was not NBASE)… during the day, real time. The site got pretty large and it was pretty fun. NO MONEY WAS INVOLVED.
    I opened another account and bid up players that I had in my other account.
    Do you know how long before they shut down my account? TWO HOURS

    Now, I am pretty, pretty, pretty sure that technology has improved quite a bit in the past 10-12 years…. you want me to believe that it would be HARD to identify collusion patterns?? It took RangersC a few hours and he was doing it from the outside.

    Please.

    They can easily figure out who is doing what and who is breaking the rules. They have shown before that they will bend, change or disregard their current rules or any “Fair Play” ideologies to keep their high-volume players happy.

  • Kaizoku

    I didn’t think there could be drama in the fantasy world. I tell you what, you girls can statergize all you want. When it comes down to it, you still have to outscore me and the others player.

  • coachwood

    @stlcardinals84 said...

    That wasn’t my finest post. I’ll admit that.

    Are there things that DFS can do better? Absolutely. Look at how much the landscape has changed over the past few years. The rise of certain things and the fall of others is natural with an industry that is still in its early years. The market will change as regulations dictate, as the sites adapt, and as the player base changes. The “massive” growth days are probably over with.

    My post was not an all-encompassing attempt to push away the common man. My post was directed at one person, and I regret getting involved. Some people are not going to be happy with anything the sites do. It doesn’t matter if they try to enforce the new regulations to the high heavens – some folks won’t be happy. It’s those people whose opinions are tough to stomach.

    Anyone who is up for open-minded, two-sided dialogue is certainly an asset to DFS, and to the RG community.

    As for the DK guidelines, there is no doubt that enforcement will be difficult. The opinions are already coming out that they are “ignoring” things. I don’t think that’s the case, but it’s going to take time for everyone to get it right. Patience is a fine virtue, and hopefully in time we can all come to accept the results that come out of them. They certainly don’t HURT anything, as nothing is going to be worse than it was before, when there were no guidelines.

    I apologize if my post directed at one person offended anyone – it was certainly not my intent nor did it fit my usual manner of posting.

    All is forgiven! I just know/think that your persona is better than that post. I perceive you as one for the people, that’s why I was hurt by those words. The guy you were quoting may be or may not be a csmf but just knew you were better than the words you posted. Thanks for clearing it up!!!!!

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