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  • punisheresz

    Since the introduction of interleague soccer contests on draftkings, I’ve been playing pretty much every slate and i came to the conclusion that for short slates 3 to 4 games the margins are extremely thin. Specially in cash where everybody has the same lineup pretty much with the exception of one or two players. For me that’s due to the scoring system being limited to crosses and goals. Every team has two full back one set pieces taker and one goal scorer so in a slate of two or three games choices are limited and it will come down to the punt winger or midfielder who gets an assist…
    I love interleague and I’m very optimistic about dfs soccer and i hope draftkings do something about that, they simply need to expand the scoring system and bring center backs and defensive midfielders to play.
    Fanduel scoring is not perfect either and they can sharpen things in defensive scoring but they have many more ways to craft a wining lineup.
    I’m sure many other draftkings regulars have their opinion about the scoring system and I’m also sure that we all want the sport to grow and the best way to do so is to give feedbacks and thoughts.

  • ciaranhanleyuk

    Love the interleague slates but as others have said, and Percy has summarised very accurately, the scoring has made cash games nigh on pointless. Everyone is crafting teams the same way from the limited pool of cross takers, set piece takers and goalscorers on chalk teams. Even in gpps why would a casual player persist with the product as is. I don’t think fanduel have quite for their scoring system down yet but it is far more interesting with multiple ways to compile a competitive line up and has far more potential as a wider draw for casuals/ new players.

  • Yeoman

    @punisheresz said...

    Most people that responded so far are gpp players if I’m not mistaken, i have no problem with the draftkings scoring in gpp you can roster anybody in gpp you can even roster Thiago Alcantara in gpp..

    But that’s just it:

    (1) As you say, the DK scoring works for gpps. There’s no reason to expect the same scoring and salaries to work in such different environments, one in which players are trying to maximize risk through correlation and another where they’re trying to reduce it. I suppose it would be possible to run two different sets of salaries or of scoring systems, one for cash and one for gpp. Possible, but it isn’t going to happen.

    (2) The current DK gpp offering is apparently very appealing to newcomers. We’ve had several new players comment on these threads that soccer is the best sweat of any DFS sport, and I think a big part of that is that, like a soccer match itself, a tournament can turn completely upside down in an instant. As much as 1/3 of the scoring for a slate can swing on a single goal—wiping out clean sheet bonuses, giving a win bonus, giving 20 points to anyone holding the G/A combo. It’s a possible 38-point swing in a game where it’s sometimes possible to cash with a score in the 80s.

    That’s exciting. Depending on your point of view, another word for it might be “variance.”

    Cash game players may want that tamped down. Maybe mass entry tournament players do too. If DK wants an ideal environment for that group, they’ll make changes. If they’re hoping to bring newcomers into their games, I think they should leave it alone for now.

  • Yeoman

    @ciaranhanleyuk said...

    Everyone is crafting teams the same way from the limited pool of cross takers, set piece takers and goalscorers on chalk teams. Even in gpps why would a casual player persist with the product as is

    Is this a problem in gpps?

    I occasionally skip a 2-game slate but otherwise I’ve played pretty much every slate they’ve offered this year, almost always one entry per. Just going back through the last several days and looking for how much chalk I ate:

    1. 3-game interleague: 5 players under 15%, 2 30-40%, 1 (Messi) 55%.
    2. 4-game Liga MX: 4 players under 5% (including one at 0.4%), 3 20-50%, 1 (Pabon) 70%.
    3. 4-game FA Cup: 3 under 12%, 4 20-36%, 1 (Aguero) 72%.
    4. 3-game interleague: 2 under 8%, Subasic 26%, the other 5 at 42-64%.
    5. 4-game UCL: 4 under 10%, 3 15-20%, Lewandoski 36%.
    6. 4-game interleague: 2 under 7%, 2 15-30%, 4 50-60%.

    Except for the last (and chalkiest) those were competitive lineups—the first five all cashed and the Liga MX won. The only time I felt like I was relying on just a couple of players to distinguish myself was #4. And I’ve only duped another lineup once all year, as far as I know…and when it happened I noticed in time to diversify off of it, if I’d wanted to. (I badly wish I had.)

    It doesn’t feel like there’s a serious chalk problem. In fact I think it’s gotten noticeably better, because DK’s tightened their pricing and enticed people off the Messis of the world. He’d have been 90%, the way they were pricing at the beginning of the season.

  • SelfCharmer

    Please no to 11 man rosters…

    Maybe the addition of one extra scoring category would help lineups to be diversified – although asking for this half way through a season is just never going to happen, but over the summer it quite easily could.

    They get all the stats anyway as their data source is OPTA, so could just add one more stat in. The problem is that the 2 stats which would be the ones I feel should be rewarded by DFS would just help the same bunch of players – Chances Created and Successful Take-Ons (Dribbles) would just over power the wingers and attacking midfielders even more.

    Maybe the addition of extra defensive stats would mean that it is not just full-backs that get selected? If we already give points for Tackles and Interceptions then why not just add in Blocks/Clearances/Aerial Duels Won for 0.5 pts each, it means that Centre Backs would be just as valuable as the wings backs and therefore leads to some very different Rosters.

    Either way, I think getting the scoring perfect for Soccer is just going to be an eternal struggle as the game is played in a variety of ways by different teams, so rewarding them close to equally is nigh on impossible.

    All I do know is 11 man rosters are not the way forward

  • Garrincha67

    @punisheresz said...

    11 man will make unplayable for a two games slate, i personally would love a scoring system that gives value to all positions on the field.

    You are nailing it on the head here. A soccer fantasy game scoring that gives value to all positions on the field should not be hard to grasp for these platforms. Credit to Yahoo for realising that and offering a well-rounded game with a scoring that does that. DK and FD’s soccer games are lop-sided and not my cup of tea at all. FD need to tone the scoring down, DK have to award points only for successful crosses and shots on target. Get rid of goalie bonus points too as the other positions have no bonus points awarded.

  • Garrincha67

    @Yeoman said...

    Both make sense to me—in fact I suggested both to DK once upon a time, before Yahoo had even started offering soccer DFS.

    Player X makes a dangerous run into the box and forces his defender to knock the ball across the end line, winning a corner. Player Y then wastes the corner, knocking it directly to the defender at the near post, or hitting a looping ball that the goalie can easily claim. Who deserves points for his contribution?

    It only makes sense because we’ve been playing that way for so long.

    If it were available on the stats feed I wish “chances created” could be counted too. You get nothing for a delicate through ball that puts a striker in on goal, unless he converts. But you get points for even the crappiest ball into the box as long as you hit it from a wing.

    Spot on Yeoman, in full agreement and could not have said it better. Hence why I do not play much DK soccer except free rolls and quarter arcades. The scoring system is laughable for those of us who have played fantasy games for a long time.

  • Garrincha67

    @elementasrat said...

    I could never see myself playing soccer on yahoo. Accurate crosses, corners won? Goddamn…..

    It is the most all-rounded game out there. So many strategies can be deployed to win their game, for me it is brilliant. You will not get away there just picking full backs who cross and midfielders on set piece duties. In short, DK’s game is simplistic and formulaic hence the eventual discussion in this thread.

  • KindGuy

    Garrimcna67, I completely understand where you’re coming from and we’ve had discussions prior to this pertaining to the subject. But DK’s product has been more successful at attracting new users, which I think is where the focus should lie. It is much easier to watch a soccer game and follow the action as it occurs both in real life and on your fantasy team.

    Is there really skill in trying to predict corners won?

  • Garrincha67

    @elementasrat said...

    Garrimcna67, I completely understand where you’re coming from and we’ve had discussions prior to this pertaining to the subject. But DK’s product has been more successful at attracting new users, which I think is where the focus should lie. It is much easier to watch a soccer game and follow the action as it occurs both in real life and on your fantasy team.

    Is there really skill in trying to predict corners won?

    Indeed we all can discuss it till the cows come home, it is subjective what scoring system people will like. But you are exaggerating on corners won aspect, it makes less than 1% of the overall scoring there.

    So for example Fabinho for Monaco has 9.75 Yahoo fantasy points classified as a defender for Monaco vs Man City. The stats read as – Block – 1, Assist – 2, Shot – 1, Passes – 25, Cross – 1, Corner Won – 1, Fouls Won – 1, Fouls Commited – 3, Interception – 2, Yellow Card – 1.

    So absolutely yes you can watch Fabinho as the example above playing the game and see how his performance is being scored. DK does not even consider a pass for soccer, that is the equivalent of not considering rushing for NFL. You want to make the game appeal to a broad range of people, then score it properly as it is played on the pitch. It is that simple.

  • SelfCharmer

    Wouldn’t all of this just be solved by changing DK scoring to be Accurate Crosses instead of just Crosses? The same players have value but the points are not “unfairly” awarded?

  • Garrincha67

    @SelfCharmer said...

    Wouldn’t all of this just be solved by changing DK scoring to be Accurate Crosses instead of just Crosses? The same players have value but the points are not “unfairly” awarded?

    Yes, I have never understood their rationale on crosses. Have they explained why they do not want to count accurate crossing only ? Bizarre to score any crosses but nada for passes which essentially what football is about. Guessing they think players want regular points updates but their NHL game works fine with low scoring and no need for unnecessary points updates.

  • punisheresz

    The official game of fpl is attracting millions every season. I don’t understand why they’ve had to go as far as possible from it in terms of scoring system?
    8 man is good but yhe scoring shouldn’t be too different from what people are used to especially if you want to attract people from Uk.
    I know its too late now to change anything for this season, but its definitely something they should consider before the starting of next season.

  • SelfCharmer

    @punisheresz said...

    The official game of fpl is attracting millions every season. I don’t understand why they’ve had to go as far as possible from it in terms of scoring system?
    8 man is good but yhe scoring shouldn’t be too different from what people are used to especially if you want to attract people from Uk.
    I know its too late now to change anything for this season, but its definitely something they should consider before the starting of next season.

    Definitely need more than just goals/assists/clean sheets, even the official FPL game has it bundled into the Bonus Points System (which is straight garbage) but this incorporates things like tackles/blocks etc..

    At the end of the day, and scoring system is fine you just have to get used to how it plays. If you make it so it is just goals and assist though you will struggle to get any interest form the UK as it is much easier to just place a bet on who will score..

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    First of all, the 11 man rosters were a terrible experiment, and simply did not work. It actually led to the top players being more heavily owned (this could have maybe been alleviated with better pricing). I think the current roster setup is the best setup on DraftKings, and it always has been.

    Personally, I also like the DraftKings scoring much better than FanDuel. Simpler is better in my opinion. The tweaks to reduce the value of crosses and add tackles/interceptions were good ones in my opinion. The FanDuel scoring is too cumbersome and a turnoff to new players that may be looking to give soccer a try. Hell, it is a turnoff to me and I pretty much have played every soccer slate available since its inception on DraftKings (3 years ago I believe?).

    I also actually like the goalie scoring on DraftKings because I think it creates a balance between going cheap (hoping for saves) or paying up (hoping for win/clean sheet). The percentage ownership of goalies is always very balanced for this reason. It’s not like save chances, odds for a win, and clean sheets are are not at least somewhat predictable based on Vegas odds/match ups.

    Pricing can ALWAYS be improved. I actually think it has been pretty strong this season for EPL and especially UCL. I think the interleague, Europa, and FA Cup type contests can be improved, but I think it sometimes is also hard because a lot of times teams won’t use their top lineups (in the secondary tournaments/cups) so value is always going to be available. Interleague also is sometimes tough to balance across leagues outside just using betting odds. Just my opinion.

    EDIT TO ADD: I am exclusively a GPP Soccer player. I have dabbled in cash games and I think some of the arguments being made in this thread apply more or only to cash games. But for soccer at least, I think cash games and GPP’s are two different animals. So it is tough to make changes to one without hurting the other.

  • SelfCharmer

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    I also actually like the goalie scoring on DraftKings because I think it creates a balance between going cheap (hoping for saves) or paying up (hoping for win/clean sheet). The percentage ownership of goalies is always very balanced for this reason. It’s not like save chances, odds for a win, and clean sheets are are not at least somewhat predictable based on Vegas odds/match ups.

    Then why not make the pricing way more tight. There shouldn’t be such a huge gulf between lowest and highest priced GK if they are all completely viable. Just leads to a variance shit fest

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @SelfCharmer said...

    Then why not make the pricing way more tight. There shouldn’t be such a huge gulf between lowest and highest priced GK if they are all completely viable. Just leads to a variance shit fest

    I agree, salaries could tighten up some. No reason to have some goalies almost $6k and others only $4k. Pricing should not be based solely on Vegas odds. But I think there is still a balance there.

    I still think there is more “safety” in a higher priced goalie on a big favorite, and much less chance for a negative score. Assuming a win is highly likely, that can be around a 5 point floor.

    A lower priced goalie can make 6+ saves but they also could concede 3 or 4 goals. Sometimes you get a perfect storm of 8 saves and only 1 goal conceded and then yes, a $4k goalie gets you 14 points without a win or clean sheet. But again, they also can get 3 saves and concede 4 times, getting you -2 points. It’s not like the high priced goalie does not sometimes make 3 or 4 saves on a way to win/clean sheet either.

  • Yeoman

    @SelfCharmer said...

    There shouldn’t be such a huge gulf between lowest and highest priced GK if they are all completely viable.

    They may all be viable plays but that doesn’t mean they’re all equally valuable. Just looking at this Saturday’s EPL slate, average DK PPG for the regular GKs range from 9-11 for Courtois, Jakupovic, Robles (who all happen to be home this week and are all priced in the 5200-6000 range) down to 4.3 for Boruc and 4.2 for Fabianski, who’s $3700 @ Chelsea.

    We’re 20+ games in; those aren’t random differences in average value. And while there’s a correlation between team strength and GK value, Jakupovic has established himself despite what’s in front of him…and DK’s pricing has adjusted to that.

    If anything, the pricing gap is too small for the relative value of the keepers—what props up the price for Boruc and Fabianski is that the first three guys are relatively safe plays (well, Courtois and Robles anyway), while Fabianski has an abysmal floor but a high ceiling because he’s going to face a lot of shots and if he somehow manages to stop them all he’ll give you a big score. People will pay something for that volatility in a gpp and the pricing seems to be targeted toward tournament play. In a cash game I don’t know why you’d give away 5-7 points on average to save just $1500 in salary.

  • KindGuy

    I love the DK Soccer product as is and I wouldn’t change it in any way shape or form. Also helps when you’re good at it.

  • Yeoman

    @Garrincha67 said...

    Spot on Yeoman, in full agreement and could not have said it better. Hence why I do not play much DK soccer except free rolls and quarter arcades. The scoring system is laughable for those of us who have played fantasy games for a long time.

    I play it and find it an interesting game, but it’s not what I would have designed from scratch.

    I’m playing both Yahoo and DK (and occasionally FD, but I don’t like it at all) and enjoying them both. It’s a pretty intense hour, examining the slate from two completely different viewpoints and trying to come up with a lineup or two for each.

    I’m not in a hurry to turn either one into the other; it’s a shame so many of you that would seem to prefer Y’s version don’t have it available.

  • Yeoman

    I’ll put it another way: the difference, on average, between Robles and Boruc is 7 DK points per game.

    That’s also the difference, on average, between Eden Hazard and James McArthur. Anybody want to suggest they should be the same price?

  • KindGuy

    @Yeoman said...

    I’ll put it another way: the difference, on average, between Robles and Boruc is 7 DK points per game.

    That’s also the difference, on average, between Eden Hazard and James McArthur. Anybody want to suggest they should be the same price?

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    I hope DK does not ever add any scoring category that involves just successful passes. Yes, possession in soccer is important for obvious reasons. But just knocking the ball around (successful passes) should not worth points in a fantasy game. I actually think DraftKings scoring is perfect how it is currently. It’s simple enough for new players to grasp but also diverse enough that skilled players still have an edge.

    Also, from a GPP perspective, I think all positions on the field do have some value. The only position I rarely pick is a defensive midfielder (think Kante from Chelsea). Central defenders DO get picked and they many times can show up on the winning roster. Getting 6-7 points from a cheap central defender may be what you need to pay up at the other premium positions. Also, some central defenders get forward quite often on free kicks and find themselves in position to score. Again, I understand the argument for cash games (I would never take a central defender on DraftKings), but for GPP’s, there are MANY strategies available. I have not see crazy overlap this season at all other than the really small slates.

  • blenderhd

    • 244

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    @Yeoman said...

    They may all be viable plays but that doesn’t mean they’re all equally valuable. Just looking at this Saturday’s EPL slate, average DK PPG for the regular GKs range from 9-11 for Courtois, Jakupovic, Robles (who all happen to be home this week and are all priced in the 5200-6000 range) down to 4.3 for Boruc and 4.2 for Fabianski, who’s $3700 @ Chelsea.

    We’re 20+ games in; those aren’t random differences in average value. And while there’s a correlation between team strength and GK value, Jakupovic has established himself despite what’s in front of him…and DK’s pricing has adjusted to that.

    This is a false equivalency. You can’t compare PPG for goalkeepers when the pricing for them from week-to-week is solely based on the team’s betting lines.

    For instance, in your example, Jakupovic’s price this week has nothing to do with DK adjusting based on all the saves he made previously, which shows in his PPG. It’s because it’s the rare time this season that Hull City is a home favorite. If they were to truly adjust based on past performance, you’d see underdog GKs priced higher than those in more “pick’em” matchups – which by the way, is exactly something that FanDuel does.

    Comparing GKs to outfield players is a misnomer because for many outfield players, especially from the upper echelon of teams, the matchup doesn’t have huge (plus or minus 5-7 points) of an effect on their floor.

    That’s why you need to view GKs not based on PPG, but on the range of outcomes. An average doesn’t show this because GKs can have similar PPGs, yet through a different disparity of results. For instance, Courtois (heavy favored team’s GK) is likely to get you either 12 points or 3 points, but rarely in the 5-7 point range. Jakupovic (heavy underdog team’s GK), on the other hand, has more of a range of -4 points through 8 points, but only once in a blue moon get 12+ points gaining the W/CS bonus.

    The issue most people have with GKs on DK isn’t necessarily the scoring, but the variance of the position from week-to-week. Lowering this variance could be done with a scoring system change, but it could also be done just by a pricing adjustment.

  • SelfCharmer

    I tried a couple of times to write what Blender said but couldn’t get it worded like that..

  • Yeoman

    @blenderhd said...

    Jakupovic (heavy underdog team’s GK), on the other hand, has more of a range of -4 points through 8 points, but only once in a blue moon get 12+ points gaining the W/CS bonus.

    If Jakupovic has a range of -4 to 8, how is averaging over 9? He’s been double-digits in five of his last ten; I guess we’re having a run of blue moons.

    But that’s a quibble. I think what doesn’t make sense to me is the singling out of the GK position as high-variance when variance there pales compared to the goal-dependent strikers (Lukaku, say, for an extreme example, has gone 26-15-3-1-52-1). Is the problem that you’re forced to carry a GK, while if you’re variance-averse you can always pick a forward with a high floor?

    Has anyone ever calculated average variance by position? Maybe I’ll do it someday if I have some time; I think you’ll be surprised at the results.

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