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  • punisheresz

    Since the introduction of interleague soccer contests on draftkings, I’ve been playing pretty much every slate and i came to the conclusion that for short slates 3 to 4 games the margins are extremely thin. Specially in cash where everybody has the same lineup pretty much with the exception of one or two players. For me that’s due to the scoring system being limited to crosses and goals. Every team has two full back one set pieces taker and one goal scorer so in a slate of two or three games choices are limited and it will come down to the punt winger or midfielder who gets an assist…
    I love interleague and I’m very optimistic about dfs soccer and i hope draftkings do something about that, they simply need to expand the scoring system and bring center backs and defensive midfielders to play.
    Fanduel scoring is not perfect either and they can sharpen things in defensive scoring but they have many more ways to craft a wining lineup.
    I’m sure many other draftkings regulars have their opinion about the scoring system and I’m also sure that we all want the sport to grow and the best way to do so is to give feedbacks and thoughts.

  • SelfCharmer

    A Goalkeepers score is also affected by the actions of other players (defenders mostly) to a much higher degree than any other position on the pitch. I think a lot of people over value the skill of a goalkeeper, rather than a defensive unit as a whole. Which is why I think removing the win bonus for GK would be a good thing

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @SelfCharmer said...

    A Goalkeepers score is also affected by the actions of other players (defenders mostly) to a much higher degree than any other position on the pitch. I think a lot of people over value the skill of a goalkeeper, rather than a defensive unit as a whole. Which is why I think removing the win bonus for GK would be a good thing

    But then we would only be drafting based on saves. So instead of the highest priced goalie being the biggest favorite, the highest priced goalie would probably be the biggest underdog.

    To me, the win bonus is what helps to balance things out. Wins are pretty predictable, so I am not sure why that is the point of contention when it comes to “variance.” The variance lies in saves in my opinion (and clean sheets to a lesser extent). The win bonus is where I think you can build in a pretty solid floor prediction for goalies.

    Like I said previously, I think they could tighten up the pricing some on goalies, but I personally think the scoring is fine. I am actually surprised to hear goalies are such a hot topic for some people in regards to variance when goal scoring (forwards/strikers) is always going to make soccer have high variance. Just my opinion.

  • SelfCharmer

    Then the Goalkeeper’s floor comes form targeting the GK which is going to face the most shots. IMO it is much easier to predict which team will have the most shots than which team will win. Why do only GKs get points for winning?

    The pricing is the main point though, with the scoring just being a different way to adjust for the problems that people have with the current GK format.

    Also, Strikers get rewarded for correlated stats, obviously a few get points for tackles tec but their floor and ceiling come form shots/SOT/assist potential/crosses etc. you do not want a“defensive” striker. But with GKs you seem to have 2 different ways they can be rewarded, one from being very active and performing well with multiple saves. The other when they do not even touch a ball but their team win 1-0 and they get 10 pts. I have no idea why you would give a GK double digit points for having literally no impact on the game

  • anguila

    • 92

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #70

      RG Tiered Ranking

    Points for completed passes is a must at some point, and going for accurate crosses would make set piece takers a little bit less important.
    I think both changes would help diluting ownership and spreading the points across the positions in the pitch.
    And as a bonus it would actually make sense soccer wise to reward actions that provide value to your team!

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @anguila said...

    Points for completed passes is a must at some point, and going for accurate crosses would make set piece takers a little bit less important.

    Why should knocking the ball around across the back line be worth points? Keep it simple. An in-depth scoring system can be overwhelming for new players or cross-sport players. The more in depth the stats/points get (and subsequent research), the more likelier it is that people never give soccer a try. And for the most part, once someone gives DFS soccer a try, they seem to love it. It is a great sweat and that is because you can easily see your players accumulate points on the pitch and one goal can jump you many spots up the standings. Grow the sport.

    The current version of DraftKings soccer is easy enough that new players can grasp it (with variance that allows them to win sometimes) but also involves enough of an edge that skilled players can consistently win. That is the balance that you want. Why change something that works? It’s why the experiment with 11 player rosters was so dumb (which I said at the time).

    Ownership in GPP’s is not currently a problem for the most part on any slate outside 2-3 game slates. The pricing has got much better/tighter, which was the main problem previously. Just my opinion.

  • Yeoman

    @SelfCharmer said...

    But with GKs you seem to have 2 different ways they can be rewarded

    In a discussion rooted in the perception that there’s only one way to construct a valid cash lineup so everyone winds up duplicating everyone else, that seems a good thing.

  • KindGuy

    Let’s just take a moment to appreciate the fact that we’re even able to play this game of DFS.

    Take a deep breath everyone!

  • Yeoman

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    Ownership in GPP’s is not currently a problem for the most part on any slate outside 2-3 game slates.

    The 2-game slates aren’t working, though.

    Take a look at today’s interleague. Not counting the players already ruled out for injury or suspension, there are only two players on the slate over $7k. The most you can possibly spend, using active players, is $52.6k.

    There aren’t many options on a 2-game slate anyway; without salary constraints it’s going to be a chalk disaster.

  • Yeoman

    @Stewburtx8 said...

    An in-depth scoring system can be overwhelming for new players or cross-sport players. The more in depth the stats/points get (and subsequent research), the more likelier it is that people never give soccer a try.

    There are two different sets of potential new players here, and what’s needed to attract them is very different.

    A DFS veteran looking at soccer for the first time is likely to attack it through statistical analysis, and more in-depth stats make that harder as you say.

    A soccer fan looking to try DFS for the first time is more likely to want a scoring system that reflects his intuitive sense of the value of a player’s contribution to the match and isn’t going to like a system where the very highest quality center back or holding mid is worth less than the very crappiest winger. See Garrincha’s comments upthread. He’s an English soccer fan if I’m not mistaken (calling it “football” is a tell), you’re a top-1000 DFSer with a baseball final on your resume. I think the two of you are talking past each other. Which isn’t a bad thing, either.

    As I’ve said, I’m not in a hurry to see changes at DK. What they’re doing makes good sense to attract a particular market. What Yahoo’s doing also makes sense, to attract a different market. I can’t think of a better way to grow the sport than to have both.

  • SelfCharmer

    Think i have about 2k on the table today if i remember correvtly

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @Yeoman said...

    The 2-game slates aren’t working, though.

    Take a look at today’s interleague. Not counting the players already ruled out for injury or suspension, there are only two players on the slate over $7k. The most you can possibly spend, using active players, is $52.6k.

    There aren’t many options on a 2-game slate anyway; without salary constraints it’s going to be a chalk disaster.

    2 game slates do not work for any sport. They are a money grab. But people still play them (myself included sometimes but I just couldn’t do it for the slate today) so I don’t blame the sites for offering them.

  • Yeoman

    @SelfCharmer said...

    Think i have about 2k on the table today if i remember correvtly

    I left 2.6. At least there’ll be two distinct lineups out there.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @Yeoman said...

    There are two different sets of potential new players here, and what’s needed to attract them is very different.

    A DFS veteran looking at soccer for the first time is likely to attack it through statistical analysis, and more in-depth stats make that harder as you say.

    A soccer fan looking to try DFS for the first time is more likely to want a scoring system that reflects his intuitive sense of the value of a player’s contribution to the match and isn’t going to like a system where the very highest quality center back or holding mid is worth less than the very crappiest winger. See Garrincha’s comments upthread. He’s an English soccer fan if I’m not mistaken (calling it “football” is a tell), you’re a top-1000 DFSer with a baseball final on your resume. I think the two of you are talking past each other. Which isn’t a bad thing, either.

    As I’ve said, I’m not in a hurry to see changes at DK. What they’re doing makes good sense to attract a particular market. What Yahoo’s doing also makes sense, to attract a different market. I can’t think of a better way to grow the sport than to have both.

    This is a good post, and definitely true. The sites need to try to find a balance. I guess I’ve always felt like the market to bring UK soccer fans into DFS isn’t as big as it should be. The reason being is that it is so easy to bet on matches in the UK that a lot of soccer fans will just get their “gambling” fix that way. (Someone from the UK feel free to correct me if I am wrong. This is clearly just my opinion.).

    I’ve always thought there was still growth potential in the US of current players who play NFL, MLB, and/or NBA that have not really given soccer a shot yet. Reason being is that the prize pools just are not enticing enough. People go where the money is/big prize pools. My biggest criticism of DraftKings has always been that they run a big promotion (typically during all-star break or an off-week for other sports) but then they follow it up with puny prize pools. They do not entice those players who took a shot at the big prize pool promotion a reason to stick around with soccer. That being said, soccer prize pools have definitely grown over the last 3 years (slowly, but it is happening).

    Also, I suck at DFS Baseball. But I get lucky sometimes.

  • SelfCharmer

    DFS Soccer is just not big at all in the UK. Traditional gambling on “soccer” in the UK is huge, sooo many people do it on a very regular basis.

    IMO, DK/FD should target other DFS players form other sports to get them into soccer before they have a chance of getting the non-DFSers into DFS Soccer

  • Yeoman

    I think both sites are doing it right. DK is a DFS site full of people already playing other DFS sports. Yahoo’s a media site that markets their games to fans that visited to read articles about sports.

    Well, they’ve each targeted the right market is what I’m trying to say. The marketing’s not ideal, from either.

  • SelfCharmer

    @Yeoman said...

    I think both sites are doing it right. DK is a DFS site full of people already playing other DFS sports. Yahoo’s a media site that markets their games to fans that visited to read articles about sports.

    Well, they’ve each targeted the right market is what I’m trying to say. The marketing’s not ideal, from either.

    I would argue by your logic it should be the other way around:

    If you are pulling from a site which has lots of DFS players used to other sports, you can be a bit more in depth with the scoring as people will be used to DFS statistics and strategies

    If you are pulling soccer fans new to DFS in, then you want the scoring as simple and easy to follow as possible

    Therefore Yahoo should have DKs scoring and Vice-Versa

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @SelfCharmer said...

    I would argue by your logic it should be the other way around:

    If you are pulling from a site which has lots of DFS players used to other sports, you can be a bit more in depth with the scoring as people will be used to DFS statistics and strategies

    If you are pulling soccer fans new to DFS in, then you want the scoring as simple and easy to follow as possible

    Therefore Yahoo should have DKs scoring and Vice-Versa

    The only current DFS sport that is at all similar to soccer is hockey. Otherwise, you might as well be called a new player if you are coming from NFL, MLB, or NBA DFS (the three biggest DFS sports) and trying to learn DFS Soccer.

  • anguila

    • 92

      RG Overall Ranking

    • Ranked #70

      RG Tiered Ranking

    There is nothing simpler than a complete pass. An unsuccessful cross is a much more complicated stat (sometimes given, sometimes not depending on the stat provider).
    If you want to grab the attention of the casual football fan in Europe for example, it would be much easier with a simple system that rewarded stats that actually provide “value” (shots on target, passes, tackles won, interceptions, accurate crosses, fouls won).
    You can obviously adapt to any system, but for a standard casial fan it is hard to understand why crossing into the legs of a defender gives points and commanding the midfield with 100+ passes is worthless

  • FyodorDostoevsky

    A suggestion.

    Remove:
    Shot off target.
    Crossball.

    Add:
    Second assist (2 points).
    Successful pass (including crosses) into the box (1 point). If the pass is an assist or a second assist, this point will not be awarded.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @FyodorDostoevsky said...

    Successful pass (including crosses) into the box (1 point). If the pass is an assist or a second assist, this point will not be awarded.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, getting any type of significant points for successful passes would ruin DFS soccer. It’s just not a fun stat to follow and while you may see one or several successful passes, you are going to have no idea how many the guy you picked has in total by watching the game (which could end up being 60+). Knocking the ball around across the backline should not be worth points. You absolutely can see crosses during the game or shots off target. Are sometimes those crosses completely inaccurate or a senseless shot taken? Sure. But in general, crossing the ball into the box provides an opportunity to score goals. Taking shots (over time some end up on target or can be deflected on target) result in the opportunity to score goals. They are easy to see while watching a game.

    Yes, possession is important. But how many times do teams control possession and still lose the match because they fail to ever put forth a strong attack and then give up goals on the counterattack? Again, this is FANTASY sports. The scoring does not have to align with “value” on the field. I feel like soccer fans (mostly from Europe) fight this more than any other sport. I do not see people complaining because offensive lineman in American football do not score fantasy points. Out of an 11 person offense, only 6 guys at a time can score fantasy points in the NFL. Yet offensive lineman are one of the most important units on the offense (if not the most important). If the offensive line fails, the offense fails. Same often goes for the midfield in soccer. But that does not mean that central/defensive midfielders have to score the same points as wingers and forwards in this fantasy game we play. Just my opinion. But the scoring has to align with value on the field argument drives me crazy. Just keep it simple. The current model WORKS.

    Also, most casual fans in Europe are not playing DFS but it has nothing to do with the scoring system. It has to do with the fact they can so easily bet on games and get their “gambling” fix.

  • FyodorDostoevsky

    Read this sentence again: Successful pass (including crosses) into the box (1 point).

    Also, it is difficult to know how successful DFS can be in Europe at this point, since very few knows what it is.

  • KindGuy

    The product is fine as is. It’s not like anyone is at a disadvantage; we’re all on the same playing field.

  • FyodorDostoevsky

    @elementasrat said...

    It’s not like anyone is at a disadvantage; we’re all on the same playing field.

    That’s true for most games one can play, and it doesn’t mean that they are equally enjoyable.

  • Stewburtx8

    • 2012 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @FyodorDostoevsky said...

    Read this sentence again: Successful pass (including crosses) into the box (1 point).

    Also, it is difficult to know how successful DFS can be in Europe at this point, since very few knows what it is.

    Reading comprehension is not my strong suit apparently (I am just so adamantly against anything involving normal completed passes that it is the first thing I see). Fair enough. I do not hate your suggestions. The 2nd assist is interesting but I am not sure if the stat provider tracks this.

    I agree. I may be making a strong assumption on DFS in Europe. It’s just DFS Soccer has been around for 3+ years now and we have not seen a big boon due to European soccer fans. So I tend to have my doubts. Maybe stronger marketing/push overseas could change that. I still think the ability to just gamble on the games so easily will make it tough for DFS to become huge in Europe.

  • punisheresz

    Maybe target countries other than the Uk where sports betting is not legal Brazil, France.. With good tv commercials

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