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  • Kuruptive8

    Eliminating multi entry in all events especially tournaments will help with all the legal issues. If DFS is a game of skill then the skillful players will still win. I consider myself a very good player and have profited every year since I’ve been playing. But I never enter more than one roster in a event. What seperates me from the pros is that they have the bankroll to enter 100s of different lineups vs my single one. So of course I’m at a disadvantage. From what I’ve read, that’s one of the main issues that law makers are targeting too. That only a low percentage of players win the majority of prize money. Eliminating multi entry will even the playing field for all dfs players and will prob open it up to more players because they actually have a better chance to win now. What do you all think?

  • tonytone1908

    @SmokestackLightning said...

    All excellent points, except this one. I do think the industry, despite the current bumpiness to the road, is back to trending towards survival. Legally, anyway.

    So legality would involve mostly the reduction of the pros ability to play, reducing the bottom line and obviously reducing the profit for the sites. Do you know how many new players you’d have to infuse to make up for that?

    Surviving legally maybe, growing and surviving profitably? Probably not. Not profitable=not in business.

  • SmokestackLightning

    @PJGuin23 said...

    It’s all because of lobbying efforts by the already established gaming interests that DFS should have clued in on.

    Not paying tribute to the gaming interests, or at minimum positioning themselves better with politicians, appears to have been, in hindsight, a fairly big gaffe.

    But I wonder how much they can really be blamed. DFS has operated with mostly little controversy outside of the world of the hardcore player until very recently. They formed partnerships with the NFL, MLB, NHL, team owners, etc—hardly orgs with little political clout. I can’t help but think they thought themselves sufficiently covered.

    In hindsight, it was damned foolish, but they also seem to have not been aware of the flipside of the American Dream. Yes, you can make it here, but don’t make it too well. If you do, somebody’s coming after you.

  • SmokestackLightning

    @tonytone1908 said...

    So legality would involve mostly the reduction of the pros ability to play,

    Maybe, maybe not. I’ve not looked too closely at the proposed regs in each state, but from what I have seen, I haven’t seen the end of MMEs just yet.

    Maybe that’s coming.

  • tonytone1908

    @PJGuin23 said...

    They should be. They wouldn’t be in this mess if they did that BEFORE the brotastic, stupid commercials hit the airwaves. Now the industry is being REACTIVE, not PROACTIVE.

    And that is why Grandma can blow her Social Security check on slots and no one bats an eye. That is why people who barely have 2 nickels to rub can take out loans to buy lottery tickets (not making this up. It has been done.) But play DFS.. OMGZ, UR GETTING SCREWED!!! It’s all because of lobbying efforts by the already established gaming interests that DFS should have clued in on.

    1) DFS sites should spend more money on politicians so they could make money and be profitable.
    2) Players shouldn’t be allowed to spend more money so they can make money and be profitable.

    Sounds ironic doesn’t it?

  • w3stcoastoff3ns3

    Multi entry is what makes DFS worth it. When I win $40 on a $2 entry without multiple LU’s it’s a major boost for someone like me who is a break even guy most nights. This is a game of skill and process. My skill is above average most nights, good enough to min cash. My process stays the same night in and night out, I hardly enter more than 2-3 LU’s, always multi stack my lu’s and when I score, I score big. DFS would be pointless with all single entry GPPS.

  • chadhawk512

    @w3stcoastoff3ns3 said...

    Multi entry is what makes DFS worth it. When I win $40 on a $2 entry without multiple LU’s it’s a major boost for someone like me who is a break even guy most nights. This is a game of skill and process. My skill is above average most nights, good enough to min cash. My process stays the same night in and night out, I hardly enter more than 2-3 LU’s, always multi stack my lu’s and when I score, I score big. DFS would be pointless with all single entry GPPS.

    but it would still exist:) This thread has gotten dumb. A possible scenario to keep playing dfs legally might be single entry only. That’s it. I love multi entry and I’m not a big fan of single entry. BUT, if that’s a way to keep it legal, then so be it. I FD and DK go under because they lose the sharks…Then maybe they shouldn’t have been so dependant on them. Hey Gabey, what do you think?:) We all understand his point right? It might come to that point. If it does, it’s because of FD and DK business models for growing so fast, depending on sharks and looking the other way. They brought it on themselves. I’m as optimistic as most people; I see the writing on the walls. DFS is going to change. Single entry might at least allow change instead of it being nonexistent.

  • KindGuy

    People act like single entry has no demand. Lol DK and FD single entry contests fill up HOURS in advance. Makes you wonder why they don’t increase the sizes……………………..

  • tonytone1908

    @elementasrat said...

    People act like single entry has no demand. Lol DK and FD single entry contests fill up HOURS in advance. Makes you wonder why they don’t increase the sizes……………………..

    HOURS in advance? Hardly. Not on FD anyway. If they were filling up by noon they would. You saw what happened to the Swat when it was filling up early. Don’t be foolish and think they wouldn’t increase them if their data showed them it was worth it.

  • TheRyanFlaherty

    @chadhawk512 said...

    but it would still exist:) This thread has gotten dumb. A possible scenario to keep playing dfs legally might be single entry only. That’s it. I love multi entry and I’m not a big fan of single entry. BUT, if that’s a way to keep it legal, then so be it. I FD and DK go under because they lose the sharks…Then maybe they shouldn’t have been so dependant on them. Hey Gabey, what do you think?:) We all understand his point right? It might come to that point. If it does, it’s because of FD and DK business models for growing so fast, depending on sharks and looking the other way. They brought it on themselves. I’m as optimistic as most people; I see the writing on the walls. DFS is going to change. Single entry might at least allow change instead of it being nonexistent.

    If the choices were single-only only or no DFS – I would choose single-entry only as well, and not be too heartbroken, but why should that be the decision?

    I fail to grasp why a form of contest which you don’t have to participate in is somehow the major issue. If we are complaining about “sharks” I personally think a more valid complaint would be professional players preying and taking all the H2H games (especially small limit). Personally if I had to choose an issue that annoys me it’s the rise in duplicate lineups (especially in cash games). I’m sure others could chime in with a host of issues that are far more destructive than a form of contest, that again, you don’t have to participate in and which you know the rules of.

    The argument against multi-entry also seems to assume that people won’t find something else to complain about if sites stopped multi-entry tomorrow. That’s an assumption I’m not willing to make.
    Honestly the only thing that probably should be done is to have a 30 minute video that explains everything – Rake, Difference in games and theory that goes along with them, Payout percentages, expectations your money will be lost, etc. before being allowed to deposit a penny, because most of the complaints I see in the general media can only be explained as ignorance, because they should be common sense to anyone who chooses to play these games.

  • bkamann

    FantasyDraft already does this. They limit their entries to 20 max no matter the size of the contest. For example, in their $3,000 prize pool, $20 entry NBA contest tonight, there are 168 spots for entry, with a 6 entry max per player.

    Obviously, they are a smaller site than FD or DK so their prize payouts are smaller, but DK and FD could do it as well and still have huge prize pools due to their huge base of customers. You probably wouldn’t see $1 million + prize pools but it would solve a lot of problems, but would limit the money the sites can make so they are hesitant to do so.

  • Putz

    @elementasrat said...

    People act like single entry has no demand. Lol DK and FD single entry contests fill up HOURS in advance. Makes you wonder why they don’t increase the sizes……………………..

    1%

  • EadesScience

    @Kuruptive8 said...

    Eliminating multi entry in all events especially tournaments will help with all the legal issues. If DFS is a game of skill then the skillful players will still win. I consider myself a very good player and have profited every year since I’ve been playing. But I never enter more than one roster in a event. What seperates me from the pros is that they have the bankroll to enter 100s of different lineups vs my single one. So of course I’m at a disadvantage. From what I’ve read, that’s one of the main issues that law makers are targeting too. That only a low percentage of players win the majority of prize money. Eliminating multi entry will even the playing field for all dfs players and will prob open it up to more players because they actually have a better chance to win now. What do you all think?

    Kuruptive….You are spot on! I would nearly bet that if you yourself had thousands of dollars to spend and a nifty mass entry tool then your name would be at the top of the Rotogrinder leader board as well.

  • tonytone1908

    Just a random thought but wouldn’t winning with 1 entry be pure luck? Seems like crafting a strategy to cover extra bases and increasing your chances of winning would be an example of skill?

  • SmokestackLightning

    @elementasrat said...

    People act like single entry has no demand. Lol DK and FD single entry contests fill up HOURS in advance. Makes you wonder why they don’t increase the sizes……………………

    Sorry, but that’s not what I’ve noticed at all. They generally take most of the day to fill, in my experience.

    Right now in the lobby you’ve got the same single entries open that have been all day. They’ll probably fill, but not likely with enough time to open another round of them.

  • KindGuy

    It’s more common DK.

    Covering your bases doesn’t show skill lol.

    Anyone can build a “core” and switch around players.

    The winner of last nights sharpshooter had a core and used his 200 entry limit to win.
    His median score was 285 ish- still good enough to cash- but multi entry gave him an advantage. His lowest score? 210. Lol. Multi entry is ridiculous and I hope DFS becomes single entry only.

  • tonytone1908

    @SmokestackLightning said...

    Sorry, but that’s not what I’ve noticed at all. They generally take most of the day to fill, in my experience.

    Right now in the lobby you’ve got the same single entries open that have been all day. They’ll probably fill, but not likely with enough time to open another round of them.

    Here we are an hour before lock and the only one currently avoiding overlay is the Dribbler. People wonder why they aren’t bigger? SMH

  • tonytone1908

    @elementasrat said...

    It’s more common DK.

    Covering your bases doesn’t show skill lol.

    Anyone can build a “core” and switch around players.

    The winner of last nights sharpshooter had a core and used his 200 entry limit to win.
    His median score was 285 ish- still good enough to cash- but multi entry gave him an advantage. His lowest score? 210. Lol. Multi entry is ridiculous and I hope DFS becomes single entry only.

    It also gives you an advantage by having more entries you should be able to beat. More $$$ for you right?

  • Putz

    @elementasrat said...

    It’s more common DK.

    Covering your bases doesn’t show skill lol.

    Anyone can build a “core” and switch around players.

    The winner of last nights sharpshooter had a core and used his 200 entry limit to win.
    His median score was 285 ish- still good enough to cash- but multi entry gave him an advantage. His lowest score? 210. Lol. Multi entry is ridiculous and I hope DFS becomes single entry only.

    The answer is in the middle. 5-50 entries should do the trick. Gone will be the days of 500-1000 entries.

  • SEAHAWK03

    @Putz said...

    The answer is in the middle. 5-50 entries should do the trick. Gone will be the days of 500-1000 entries.

    This is very close to what Fantasydraft does and has done the entire season . The difference is the max is 20 entrants in their largest contests. (not 50)

  • draftngo

    Skeeter, I agree with every stance you take on DFS. If you need a reference for an application to get these rules into the game, I am here for you.

  • Kuruptive8

    I’m not advocating single entry vs multi entry. Too be honest I’m successful in both types. Check my rotogrinders stats. I only play really play NBA and on one site only too (FD). My point is if dfs is truly a game of skill then your single core roster should be enough to win on most nights. You shouldn’t need 100 variations of that lu to win. Those extra 99 lineups is what makes it unfair for the average player with small bankrolls vs the pros (who obviously have skill in making a roster) but have the extra cash to enter 99 times more than the avg joe. That is in essence the core of some lawmaker objections to dfs. That in this billion dollar Industry, only a small percentage of players actually win the majority of the prize money in these tournaments. Sure maxdaldry risks a high amount each night but he wins. He cleans up and leaves lil for the avg joe that can only afford one roster when he has to compete against Max’s 100+ lus. Single entry will eliminate than concern. Anyways it’s been fun reading all these posts. I didn’t think it would cause so much reaction. I just want dfs to survive and be able to continue to play in all states for the rest of my life.

  • L3gOnD

    @Kuruptive8 said...

    You shouldn’t need 100 variations of that lu to win. Those extra 99 lineups is what makes it unfair for the average player with small bankrolls vs the pros (who obviously have skill in making a roster) but have the extra cash to enter 99 times more than the avg joe.

    I feel you on DFS needing to survive, but to say multi isn’t skillful isn’t a valid approach.
    They don’t need those lineups, they create them to increase profit while simultaneously reducing ROI. They are throwing sub-optimal lineups into the pool in order to seek diversification, more profit, and less variance. They are paying the same amount per entry while simultaneously losing expected value. Each entry they create limits their potential for profit in terms of ROI as they then can’t come in first place twice, or more than twice. The top prize only goes to one player, in the even of a tie then the top prize and second are split. So each lineup submitted is reducing ROI which is in turn profitable for the “average joe”. What makes the “pros” good is their ability to win with multi-entry. Winning consistently while reducing your ROI and expected profit in terms of % of investment is impressive.
    Players have the ability to play both, but arguing multi-entry is not skillful is absurd. If it weren’t then everyone would be doing it. Bankroll isn’t a factor, the $0.25 arcade exists.

  • yoteach

    • Blogger of the Month

    Anyone have the link to the Milly Maker mass-entry stats breakdown?

  • cpleone

    I wasn’t going to comment on this thread but since it seems like it is staying at the top of the forum I’ll throw in my two cents.

    I think it would be a lot harder for the average player to have a good ROI in tournaments if multi-entry was eliminated. Using this last weekend’s NFL games as an example, if someone is able to put in 20 entries in a GPP, they may decide to stack the Houston-KC game just in case it winds up being a shootout. People who did that this weekend probably had some dead lineups. If everyone only had one bullet, fewer people take risks, instead going for more “optimum” lineups which would probably make it a lot harder to cash/turn a profit in GPPs. Whether single entry or multi entry it’s always going to be a bit of a crapshoot to win since you essentially have to have the nuts.

    The only time multi-entering really bugs me is when you see top players flooding really low stakes tournaments. I remember quite a lot of times this summer playing in $1-$2 MLB tournaments on DraftKings and seeing quite a few highly ranked players with dozens of entries in a tourney with a first place prize of like $500. Seems a little unnecessary when you’re playing thousands of dollars of action a day, but whatever. For the most part, it’s easy to avoid the situations most people complain about if you put about 15 minutes of thought and research in to the types of contests you enter.

  • KindGuy

    @L3gOnD said...

    I feel you on DFS needing to survive, but to say multi isn’t skillful isn’t a valid approach.
    They don’t need those lineups, they create them to increase profit while simultaneously reducing ROI. They are throwing sub-optimal lineups into the pool in order to seek diversification, more profit, and less variance. They are paying the same amount per entry while simultaneously losing expected value. Each entry they create limits their potential for profit in terms of ROI as they then can’t come in first place twice, or more than twice. The top prize only goes to one player, in the even of a tie then the top prize and second are split. So each lineup submitted is reducing ROI which is in turn profitable for the “average joe”. What makes the “pros” good is their ability to win with multi-entry. Winning consistently while reducing your ROI and expected profit in terms of % of investment is impressive.
    Players have the ability to play both, but arguing multi-entry is not skillful is absurd. If it weren’t then everyone would be doing it. Bankroll isn’t a factor, the $0.25 arcade exists.

    No, the point of multi entry is to switch around your players while keeping your core the same in the hopes of binking the GPP.

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