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  • Ryazan

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    I ask this for a reason – I was up big at some point with MLB this past summer, and I hit the newly established deposit limit of 1K per month in MA. Good regulation, and if it was followed by Fanduel, I wouldn’t even post this. However, I was allowed to raise my deposit limit to 5K for providing “proof of income” by giving them my 2015 1099 form that stated my winnings from 2015, but that gave no proof of how badly I was doing in 2016. Fanduel also had on record how much I lost playing NBA for the first 3 months of 2016 (80% of my 2015 overall winnings, + what I owed for taxes for my 2015 winnings). Horrible management on my part, I know, that is not even up for discussion – I was completely horrible in that personal aspect.

    But it didn’t stop there – when I couldn’t win on a 5K monthly deposit limit, Fanduel permitted me to wire up to $30,000 straight from my bank account, seemingly completely ignoring the Massachusetts regulation of 1K per month (or 5K per month, if legally my 2015 winnings even matter as “proof of income”) – I did not have a high paying real job, in fact I was unemployed for a while, and I never gave them proof of anything other than my 2015 1099 winnings form (they were aware of all my 2016 losses after that).

    I pretty much withdrew 30K from my bank account in no time, and I seriously wonder, did Fanduel break Massachusetts regulations law by allowing me to do this?

    http://www.mass.gov/ago/consumer-resources/consumer-information/dfs/

    Limitations on Consumer Deposits: A DFSO shall not allow a DFS Consumer to deposit more than $1,000 in any calendar month, provided however that a DFSO may establish and Prominently Publish procedures for temporarily or permanently increasing a DFS Consumer’s deposit limit, at the request of the DFS Consumer, above $1,000 per calendar month.

    If established by a DFSO, such procedures shall include evaluation of information, including income or asset information, sufficient to establish that the player can afford losses that might result from gameplay at the deposit limit level requested.

    When a temporary or permanent deposit level limit increase is approved, the DFSO’s procedures shall provide for annual evaluation of information, including income or asset information, sufficient to establish a player’s financial ability to afford losses at the deposit limit level in place. Absent such evaluation, the temporary or permanent deposit level increase shall not be extended.

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  • wolfjb1

    This really isn’t complicated. The law you quoted says FD can find a procedure to increase the limits. They did so. So, no, they didn’t break the law.

    The only question is, as maxeernst wrote, in what manner did they “prominently publish” the procedures? I’m a lawyer and I can think of 100 ways to “prominently publish” something, including possibly sending you an email (which isn’t as prominent as taking out a full-page ad in the Boston Globe, but can loosely be defined as a “prominent” way to “publish” certain information.) For what it’s worth, generally speaking, the word “publish” has a different meaning in the legal context, meaning basically, “to disseminate” rather than to publish in a newspaper, online, book, whatever.

  • SmokestackLightning

    @elementasrat said...

    Why is no one answering Ryazan’s original question. He didn’t come here asking for help for a supposed gambling addiction. Aside from Max, none of you have actually given him useful advice on the legal aspect. I also am curious whether or not Fanduel broke the law because it sure does look like it.

    Look up two responses. I think fjbourne is probably onto it.

  • gaelicgirl

    @elementasrat said...

    I also am curious whether or not Fanduel broke the law because it sure does look like it.

    It looks like Massachusetts has a legal loophole in their monthly deposit limit that Ryazan and FD used. It doesn’t look like FD broke any laws.

    Off topic: This NBA All Star break is really too long, isn’t it? Can’t believe I’m going to try NHL today…

  • Heterodox

    @Garpeters said...

    The real issue here is why you’re emptying your bank account to play DFS, when you’re unemployed and obviously losing at a high rate with terrible bank roll management.

    Good God people simply cannot help themselves. Give an average person an opportunity to feel superior to others, and they will not be able to resist. We need some self-exclusion for that type of thing.

    Though I acknowledge the irony that Ryazan, himself, fits that bill, if you’ve been paying attention to his posts over the last couple years.

    Still, that is not the issue, nor is the issue what this quote says it is, which so many others seem to agree with. At issue here, is how someone can empty their bank account when unemployed and losing at a high rate, when there are regulations in place to prevent that exact thing from happening. At the very least, we can talk about the effectiveness of the regulation, whether or not any site did anything wrong. It seems, as Max said, intentionally vague. They don’t set standards for what kind of information should be required from someone, just that procedures be put in place.

    All in all, as someone who was guardedly optimistic about regulation of this industry – which badly needed it – I have to say the way it has turned out has been ridiculously disappointing.

  • Messiah717

    @elementasrat said...

    Why is no one answering Ryazan’s original question. He didn’t come here asking for help for a supposed gambling addiction. Aside from Max, none of you have actually given him useful advice on the legal aspect. I also am curious whether or not Fanduel broke the law because it sure does look like it.

    I think there’s something being left out of the story. What was your withdrawal history during 2015 where it appears you did very well and the summer of 2016 where you say yourself you were up big playing MLB. You got the initial increase based on your 2015 1099. Then you say you were up big playing MLB this past summer of 2016. If I’m reading things correctly you want to blame FD because you pissed everything away once the NBA season started?

  • MrFantasy

    @Messiah717 said...

    If I’m reading things correctly you want to blame FD because you pissed everything away once the NBA season started?

    This is how I interpreted it although he went about saying so indirectly. I can’t help but chuckle to myself hearing this story after Ryazan laughed in everyone’s face about how rake doesn’t matter and how he is better than Saahil and many other amusing stories over the past two years or so.

  • Rabidus

    The rules in Massachusetts are pretty vague when it comes to deposit limits. I’ve never liked this stipulation. I do not believe any laws were broken (not a lawyer) as FanDuel looked at your financial situation and you satisfactorily met their criteria. The reason that this law is terrible is that it puts the onus on the operator to determine what you can spend. That should completely be your decision, not theirs. If the state wants to limit deposits, they can put hard caps in place. Having some loose language where the operator takes responsibility for your personal spending is just foolish.

  • Zieg30

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    @Heterodox said...

    Good God people simply cannot help themselves. Give an average person an opportunity to feel superior to others, and they will not be able to resist. We need some self-exclusion for that type of thing.

    Though I acknowledge the irony that Ryazan, himself, fits that bill, if you’ve been paying attention to his posts over the last couple years.

    Still, that is not the issue, nor is the issue what this quote says it is, which so many others seem to agree with. At issue here, is how someone can empty their bank account when unemployed and losing at a high rate, when there are regulations in place to prevent that exact thing from happening. At the very least, we can talk about the effectiveness of the regulation, whether or not any site did anything wrong. It seems, as Max said, intentionally vague. They don’t set standards for what kind of information should be required from someone, just that procedures be put in place.

    Except that the OP hasn’t raised this issue as some sort of dispassionate policy discussion and subsequently been personally attacked for it. He is, instead, clearly hoping to parlay FD’s conduct into a personal remuneration, to absolve him of the consequences of the poor choices he made.

    So, certainly, while a discussion of FD’s conduct and the flaccid MA regulation is certainly worth having, there is simply nothing wrong with what the other posters here have said.

  • crazypaul

    @Heterodox said...

    At issue here, is how someone can empty their bank account when unemployed and losing at a high rate, when there are regulations in place to prevent that exact thing from happening.

    It sounds to me that the regulation requires an annual review for an increase over the 1K limit. The OP provided financials from 2015 to increase his limits, not once, but twice in 2016. Fanduel cannot track a users financials in the current year, they can only go off of the previous years tax documents, so according to 2015’s tax returns, he was eligible for this increase. I see no fault of the sites, as this does not appear to be an increase they initiated.

  • fightingjohn

  • Ryazan

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    Oh im fully accountable on my losses, and im not looking to blame fanduel for my gaming mistakes. What i am trying to say, is that MA law looks to have been broken, as Fanduel went against the regulation that was set up by the MA Attorney General. Around tax season in 2016, i basically was at 0 after losing most of my 2015 winnings in January and February and paying taxes on everything i won.

    Then around July of 2016 i won around 30k in mlb and withdrew it all, and then ran into the newly established 1k deposit limit. That limit ended up not being enforced. Fanduel knew about my losses to start 2016 because they have it on record (how much i deposit and withdraw), so they knew that the winnings from my 2015 1099 did not mean that i had current income. And they allowed me to make wire transfers that skirted around the deposit limits.

    Its all my fault i know that, but legally, it just seems like Fanduel ignored the regulation and attempted to illegally work around it.

  • Ryazan

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    @crazypaul said...

    It sounds to me that the regulation requires an annual review for an increase over the 1K limit. The OP provided financials from 2015 to increase his limits, not once, but twice in 2016. Fanduel cannot track a users financials in the current year, they can only go off of the previous years tax documents, so according to 2015’s tax returns, he was eligible for this increase. I see no fault of the sites, as this does not appear to be an increase they initiated.

    They increased to 5k after i gave them the 1099 from 2015. The illegal part im saying seems to be them allowing me to wire over 30k direct from my bank to bypass the 5k limit

  • Ryazan

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    Im not here to talk about my bad decisions, im here to talk about Fanduel breaking regulation law, especially one that was put into place specifically to save morons like me from myself

  • elementasrat

    @Ryazan said...

    The illegal part im saying seems to be them allowing me to wire over 30k direct from my bank to bypass the 5k limit

    That’s insane. FD definitely needs to be looked into for this.

    Note: I’m not absolving Ryazan of any responsibility here but the law is the law and FD definitely seems to have broken it.

  • wolfjb1

    You’re completely ignoring that the law itself contains loopholes allowing them to raise their deposit.

    Maybe a better question would be whether the law has any teeth. If they can work around the restrictions for anyone, at any time, the answer is, No.

  • MrFantasy

    @elementasrat said...

    That’s insane. FD definitely needs to be looked into for this.

    Note: I’m not absolving Ryazan of any responsibility here but the law is the law and FD definitely seems to have broken it.

    Wouldn’t this also mean that Ryazan broke the law too?

    He wired the money. It means he had the money to lose. It’s not like they let him run up 5 different credit cards. There is only so much FD can do to verify income without asking for proof of assets etc.

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  • Ryazan

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    Also to be clear, they told me for a while that there was nothing they could do, they were real hesitant to do anything to let me keep playing, i told them id just stop playing and play more on other sites, and thats when they decided to let me be able to wire money directly from my bank.

  • Ryazan

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    @MrFantasy said...

    Wouldn’t this also mean that Ryazan broke the law too?

    He wired the money. It means he had the money to lose. It’s not like they let him run up 5 different credit cards. There is only so much FD can do to verify income without asking for proof of assets etc.

    Its up to the site to follow regulation, i didnt force Fanduel to bypass the law, i just told them id stop playing if they couldnt figure something out

  • rpak1

    @Ryazan said...

    Its up to the site to follow regulation, i didnt force Fanduel to bypass the law, i just told them id stop playing if they couldnt figure something out

    Did they allow you to make more deposits after the $30K deposit that you made?

    Are you still at a net loss over each month?

  • jjwd

    @flip4flop said...

    I wouldn’t ask here, I would ask a lawyer at this point and then self exclude if its ever resolved in your favor.

    You’re not going to get much sympathy in this forum Ryazan. Maybe you’re a great guy, but you’re one of the most annoying posters of all time. What you’re going to get here is non-lawyers flapping their gums, and real lawyers telling you to contact a lawyer. And a bunch of people tangentially riffing on the perils of addiction. If this turns into another long Ryazan thread I might have to jump out the window.

  • Zieg30

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    @elementasrat said...

    Note: I’m not absolving Ryazan of any responsibility here but the law is the law and FD definitely seems to have broken it.

    Please explain your view as to how FD “definitely seems” to have broken the law.

    Is a 5k limit published on FD’s site or in the MA regulation? Do FD’s published procedures require additional paperwork to go over their own 5k limit, if it is their own stated limit?

  • Ryazan

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    @MrFantasy said...

    Wouldn’t this also mean that Ryazan broke the law too?

    He wired the money. It means he had the money to lose. It’s not like they let him run up 5 different credit cards. There is only so much FD can do to verify income without asking for proof of assets etc.

    There is a deposit limit that was thrown out the window, doesnt matter if i wired 100 bucks or 30k, once i used up my 5k then the limit should have kicked in.

    All im saying is i think fanduel spit in the face of the regulation that was put into place specifically to make sure people dont end up in situations like mine

  • sethayates

    @wolfjb1 said...

    You’re completely ignoring that the law itself contains loopholes allowing them to raise their deposit.

    Maybe a better question would be whether the law has any teeth. If they can work around the restrictions for anyone, at any time, the answer is, No.

    The intent of the law is that there are roadblocks to what happened here. Not to stop people from doing what Ryazan did. The idea is that if you are blowing through $1K/month you have to actively go out of your way in order to get the limit raised. In this case, the person who requested the increase did just that.

    Why wouldn’t his 2015 SF1099 be sufficient? What should the site be required to ask for? I could easily create a fake pay stub (based off my real one). If I sent FanDuel a paystub saying that I make $12,000 per month they can’t verify that. What makes the most sense is to use the data they already have in house. Ryazan was a winning player last year. He’s played high volume for quite some time. He’s the ideal candidate for a deposit limit increase.

    Again, the intent was never for $1,000 to be the firm limit. They just wanted a point where people would stop and say, “Wow, I’m losing a lot of money, maybe I should back off.” If someone is going to twice request an increase there’s not much else you can do.

    Also, keep in mind this wasn’t a credit card deposit. This was $30K in cash from his bank account. In some ways, that’s almost enough proof that “I can afford this” all by itself. On FanDuel’s end of these transactions you have to believe they assume their customer is using some common sense and this $30,000 bank wire isn’t their entire balance.

  • jdelsas

    Sounds like real life poor bankroll management strategy to me.

  • jaguar21

    I would just call the ma attorney general office. They made the rules. Good luck

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