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  • desertdanny

    Amazing!! So great for the industry and my bankroll.

  • DirtyDanS4

    Sorry if this was already posted here i didnt read all the previous pages… but it looks like they will have late swap and non late swap slates to play and i dont think its just baseball cuz on the link on the app to learn about late swap it says choose ur sport then choose ur slate, it uses nhl as their example on how to use late swap so im wondering will they have some nba late swap to end the season? And my opinion on the subject is that dk should have never terminated late swap and fd should never implement it… my theory was you want late swap? Play dk and their fps scoring and roster setups… you want to set it and forget but may get burned by late scratches in nba or weather in mlb? Play fd witb their fps scoring and roster setup

  • kb32dawgs

    Another benefit for sharks. I mean that’s who the sites are really going to cater to anyway.

  • Roma315

    @DirtyDanS4 said...

    Sorry if this was already posted here i didnt read all the previous pages… but it looks like they will have late swap and non late swap slates to play and i dont think its just baseball cuz on the link on the app to learn about late swap it says choose ur sport then choose ur slate, it uses nhl as their example on how to use late swap so im wondering will they have some nba late swap to end the season? And my opinion on the subject is that dk should have never terminated late swap and fd should never implement it… my theory was you want late swap? Play dk and their fps scoring and roster setups… you want to set it and forget but may get burned by late scratches in nba or weather in mlb? Play fd witb their fps scoring and roster setup

    FDs lock contest largest GPP is 1k so it’s not really a great option ATM.

  • bluestooges

    I hear a lot of talk about late swap being better for pros….. I personally think no late swap is better for them. Everyone can switch out a guy at 930 that is not in a lineup but someone who knows he is sitting at 7 if the lineup is not out or correct has more of an advantage.

  • tbryan

    Customer support gave me a bullsh*t response about how great the new changes will be and how it won’t affect the regular game play, with “fill rates and user feedback being a deciding factor in how contests are offered (late swap/non late swap) and in what quantity”. Looking at the lobby there is virtually nothing available for non late swap games. Way to go FanDuel… you’re effectively killing one of the things that makes your product unique, and one of the main reasons players opt to use your site. Changes to scoring formats are understandable as sometimes you need to increase variance to keep up with increasing industry knowledge, however, the late swap attribute kills the edge you get from taking calculated risks on your lineup construction due to potential weather issues, injuries/questionable tags, doing your homework on the slate, knowing team rotations and game flow, etc. Things that most people would likely consider to be one of the larger skill factors in DFS. You take that away and you are taking away what helped keep the site stable when it was being scrutinized regarding how much skill vs luck it takes to be continuously successful as a DFS player. Everyone, if you hate this addition, start hitting up their customer support and let them know loud and clear how you feel.

  • Roma315

    I’m surprised they said this was due to user feedback. The main reason why I played FD over DK for baseball was the no late swap and one pitcher option. I hate the 2 pitchers/ multi player position/ late swap on DK.

  • bluestooges

    I think the REAL reason for the added late swap is to try and make DK and FD as similar as possible since they merged. The more similar they are the less headaches for them when we only have one choice.

  • Scumpunch

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    @bluestooges said...

    I think the REAL reason for the added late swap is to try and make DK and FD as similar as possible since they merged. The more similar they are the less headaches for them when we only have one choice.

    Have you seen FanDuel’s golf product?

  • LuckyLuc3434

    @bluestooges said...

    I hear a lot of talk about late swap being better for pros….. I personally think no late swap is better for them. Everyone can switch out a guy at 930 that is not in a lineup but someone who knows he is sitting at 7 if the lineup is not out or correct has more of an advantage.

    This is the why late swap is popular, but it is somewhat flawed thinking.

    The biggest aspect to late swap is not that you’re able to avoid playing a guy who is out of the lineup – the biggest aspect is that you are able to swap parts of your lineup based on your current standing in the tournament, to either increase your variance or decrease your variance based on where you are in the tournament.

    The casual player uses late swap to avoid injuries, the top players use late swap to alter their lineups to maximize their chance of winning a tourney. If let’s say you were in a 2 player tournament, and winning by 5 points going into the last game. Game is Giants vs. Red Sox, and the only player that both of you have left to play is a catcher. You’ve both set Posey as catcher since he’s drastically superior to Leon. So if there wasn’t late swap, you’ve won by 5 points! However, the smart player that you are playing will swap out to Leon if they’re sure that you’re playing Posey, since it gives them a chance to pull off the upset and win if Leon can outperform Posey.

    Now imagine this in a 10,000 person tourney. Gets a whole lot more complicated, however with CSV edit and late swap now on fanduel, there is an ability for people to mass edit their lineups in the middle of their tournaments to optimize their chances of winning. All the while the casual player is just happy that their lineup doesn’t have any inactive players, and is getting hurt by all the mass late swaps used by the top players.

  • bluestooges

    I hear you on the where a pro can use late swap to their advantage, I just think they have an even bigger advantage with out it. Anyone who spends 60 plus hours a week on dfs is going to have an advantage over someone who spends 30 min before lock on their lineup. I think the 60 hours plus guys have an even bigger advantage when it comes to no late swap. Like I said they have an advantage either way but its bigger in my opinion with out it.

  • Razzle11

    Every change is going to have people upset. If FD believed that the non late swap was a more popular option, don’t you think they’d have those GPPs with larger prize pools? The disparity alone should tell you something. The people posting here are a drop in the ocean of players that utilize their product.

    When people are talking about mass editing via CSV, I can understand your thought and while there will be some times that it will benefit, there are going to be a number of times that it won’t because they are pivoting to an overall less EV play. You have the ability to do the same thing, you just CHOOSE not to do it. Just like they CHOOSE to do it. That is the thing, we like the freedoms we have to make our own choices. When you have a non late swap site, one of our choices is taken away from us and we just have to deal with no swapping. With it being available, we now have the option to make a late swap or keep our lineup the same. The issue I see so far is that people are automatically clamoring that making last minute tweaks is always a +EV move when if you talked to a large amount of people who play DFS, they will tell you that late tinkering generally leads to bad results. Your initial lineup/s are the ones you made via your research, which should be your best EV lineups.

    Another way to look at the use of late swap. Say you are a player in a large field GPP who plays maybe 10 lineups in that thing, knowing there are a large amount of people who will be playing 50-150 lineups. With 150 lineups, guys were able to take some chances with some iffy weather games, like Coors, however with your 10 lineups you couldn’t justify doing so. With the late swap option, you can build yourself a stack or two or three and have the ability to make changes should the weather get worse or they officially PPD it.

    The big take away for so far in this thread is the automatic assumption that every late swap is of the benefit to the player who utilizes it and I would go on a limb and say that is NOT the case overall. People just tend to notice it when it works and don’t dig through to see the number of times that it did not work

  • draped

    @bluestooges said...

    I hear you on the where a pro can use late swap to their advantage, I just think they have an even bigger advantage with out it. Anyone who spends 60 plus hours a week on dfs is going to have an advantage over someone who spends 30 min before lock on their lineup. I think the 60 hours plus guys have an even bigger advantage when it comes to no late swap. Like I said they have an advantage either way but its bigger in my opinion with out it.

    its definitely bigger with late swap. because not only do they get the advantage of spending 60 hours+ according to you. but they also get the advantage of late swapping for strategy in GPPs as mentioned above. its not like their advantage of more hours before lock goes away with late swap.

  • draped

    @Razzle11 said...

    Every change is going to have people upset. If FD believed that the non late swap was a more popular option, don’t you think they’d have those GPPs with larger prize pools? The disparity alone should tell you something. The people posting here are a drop in the ocean of players that utilize their product.

    When people are talking about mass editing via CSV, I can understand your thought and while there will be some times that it will benefit, there are going to be a number of times that it won’t because they are pivoting to an overall less EV play. You have the ability to do the same thing, you just CHOOSE not to do it. Just like they CHOOSE to do it. That is the thing, we like the freedoms we have to make our own choices. When you have a non late swap site, one of our choices is taken away from us and we just have to deal with no swapping. With it being available, we now have the option to make a late swap or keep our lineup the same. The issue I see so far is that people are automatically clamoring that making last minute tweaks is always a +EV move when if you talked to a large amount of people who play DFS, they will tell you that late tinkering generally leads to bad results. Your initial lineup/s are the ones you made via your research, which should be your best EV lineups.

    Another way to look at the use of late swap. Say you are a player in a large field GPP who plays maybe 10 lineups in that thing, knowing there are a large amount of people who will be playing 50-150 lineups. With 150 lineups, guys were able to take some chances with some iffy weather games, like Coors, however with your 10 lineups you couldn’t justify doing so. With the late swap option, you can build yourself a stack or two or three and have the ability to make changes should the weather get worse or they officially PPD it.

    The big take away for so far in this thread is the automatic assumption that every late swap is of the benefit to the player who utilizes it and I would go on a limb and say that is NOT the case overall. People just tend to notice it when it works and don’t dig through to see the number of times that it did not work

    yes, not every late swap works. but that’s not the point…..the point is that if you do it in an efficient manner (which the top guys will do), then you can create a lineup with more/less variance depending on your position in a GPP. its never been about making a late swap work everytime, its about changing your lineup to fit what you need (ie. if you are in the bottom 20% of a GPP you probably want to take a risk regardless of if it will fail 95% of the time because you will lose with the chalk anyway). the fact that you can turn any amount of those dead lineups by swapping to riskier/higher variance plays is an advantage to those that can use it.

    I would agree that anyone can do it, but I also understand the people complaining because they don’t have the time after lock (kids, wife/husband, etc) to spend a large amount of time optimizing these swaps.

    btw +EV does not match directly with +ROI. yes they may be making -EV pivots, but its to increase their expected ROI.

  • Razzle11

    @draped said...

    btw +EV does not match directly with +ROI. yes they may be making -EV pivots, but its to increase their expected ROI.

    Over the long run, yes they do match…..you are saying that -EV pivots are expected to return a + ROI? If you had said its to possibly increase their ROI then that is different. But you are saying that in making a -EV pivot, they expect that it will increase their ROI. That would make it a +EV pivot then.

    Like I said, people completely forget about ALL the times it fails. Your example of making a pivot when you are in the bottom 20%, my argument would be that the one pivot youd make to take a chance isn’t going to be the one that skyrockets all the way to the top 10 in the large field gpps everybody is talking about. The difference between the bottom 20% of a field and say even the top 20% is more than just one player.

    Realize that making a swap can lower their ROI. They may pivot in hopes of sliding up, then that guy lays a 0 and the more popular guy that was swapped out puts up a handful of points, now they are passed by all of those who had him in yet….

  • draped

    @Razzle11 said...

    Over the long run, yes they do match…..you are saying that -EV pivots are expected to return a + ROI? If you had said its to possibly increase their ROI then that is different. But you are saying that in making a -EV pivot, they expect that it will increase their ROI. That would make it a +EV pivot then.

    Like I said, people completely forget about ALL the times it fails. Your example of making a pivot when you are in the bottom 20%, my argument would be that the one pivot youd make to take a chance isn’t going to be the one that skyrockets all the way to the top 10 in the large field gpps everybody is talking about. The difference between the bottom 20% of a field and say even the top 20% is more than just one player.

    Realize that making a swap can lower their ROI. They may pivot in hopes of sliding up, then that guy lays a 0 and the more popular guy that was swapped out puts up a handful of points, now they are passed by all of those who had him in yet….

    I guess u can keep thinking the way you are, I have no desire to explain every detail. but the fact you are only thinking that pivots are a single player and only are profitable when you get to the ‘top 10’ is a very flawed way of seeing the situation. you are looking at a very small percentage of the situations where they use late swap. these late swap pivots are not as simple as a single player vs another single player.

  • Roma315

    I emailed FD if enough of us let them know it’s a long shot but it may work. Last year they did update the scoring mid season so maybe we can have them change this.

    Edit: also I’m typically a 50-60 lineup guy in the $1-$5, and $25(if prize pool is large enough compared to the lower events) events

  • KindGuy

    @Roma315 said...

    I emailed FD if enough of us let them know it’s a long shot but it may work.

    What are you gonna say in the email?

  • LuckyLuc3434

    @draped said...

    btw +EV does not match directly with +ROI. yes they may be making -EV pivots, but its to increase their expected ROI.

    This.

    -EV pivots (in terms of expected points) can increase expected ROI, and that is the key to the advantage gained by some through late swap

  • Razzle11

    @draped said...

    I guess u can keep thinking the way you are, I have no desire to explain every detail. but the fact you are only thinking that pivots are a single player and only are profitable when you get to the ‘top 10’ is a very flawed way of seeing the situation. you are looking at a very small percentage of the situations where they use late swap. these late swap pivots are not as simple as a single player vs another single player.

    I understand swaps are not one v one type moves, but I would bet that larger number of them are just that in comparison to 2 v 2 and 3 v 3’s. When you are talking about guys with 150 lineups, there are a number of nights where they need that top 10% or higher finish to profit on a given night in GPPs.

    And in turn you are looking at ONLY the ones that help them, as I pointed out there are a large number that actually hurt them and cost them money as well.

    That is the issue, people only want to point out when it helps them return more money, not when it costs them money

  • Razzle11

    @LuckyLuc3434 said...

    This.

    -EV pivots (in terms of expected points) can increase expected ROI, and that is the key to the advantage gained by some through late swap

    I think you guys are adding a word to your statement. The use of the word expected would then mean you are making a +EV move to increase your ROI as you expect it to be beneficial for you over the long run. if you remove the expected word, you get this statement:

    “-EV pivots (In terms of expected points) can increase ROI

  • draped

    @Razzle11 said...

    I understand swaps are not one v one type moves, but I would bet that larger number of them are just that in comparison to 2 v 2 and 3 v 3’s. When you are talking about guys with 150 lineups, there are a number of nights where they need that top 10% or higher finish to profit on a given night in GPPs.

    And in turn you are looking at ONLY the ones that help them, as I pointed out there are a large number that actually hurt them and cost them money as well.

    That is the issue, people only want to point out when it helps them return more money, not when it costs them money

    in my first response I agreed that there are ones that hurt them…….im not ignoring that at all. I even said in one of my comments that a pivot can have a 95% chance of failing and still be a good decision based on the situation…….

    no one is ignoring the fact that pivots can not work out, but that is built into the EV/ROI decision making process……

    you are missing the point that a failed pivot doesn’t necessarily equate to a failure. there are many more failed pivots than successes if you are looking at raw points, but that has nothing to do with EV/ROI.

    edit: oh well im done. lets just go our separate ways.

  • Olhausen

    I personally love that FD went with late swap. I would always avoid slates on fan duel that had late games with lineup’s not released yet. This will probably lead me to playing half my action on FD and half on DK. Before this I played 75% on DK and 25% on FD.

  • draped

    @Razzle11 said...

    I think you guys are adding a word to your statement. The use of the word expected would then mean you are making a +EV move to increase your ROI as you expect it to be beneficial for you over the long run. if you remove the expected word, you get this statement:

    “-EV pivots (In terms of expected points) can increase ROI

    ok im done for real now. this is pointless.

    EDIT: if you want to get to the bottom of this I suggest you do some reading on the subject. in particular you may want to look into game theory related topics.

  • jwitte007

    @Razzle11 said...

    I think you guys are adding a word to your statement. The use of the word expected would then mean you are making a +EV move to increase your ROI as you expect it to be beneficial for you over the long run. if you remove the expected word, you get this statement:

    “-EV pivots (In terms of expected points) can increase ROI

    Here’s what you’re missing. If you have a lower upside/higher owned guy in your lineup and you are a very long shot to cash anyway, you can pivot to a guy with more upside/less owned to at least have a better chance to get in the money. Sure, this guy probably has a lower expected (average) projection than the guy you originally had, but he still provides a better chance to cash.

    You may place higher on average with your original guy… but for example does it really matter if you finish 3,000 or 4,000 if the top 500 are paid? The replacement player(s) could give you a shot to get in the top 500. That’s what people are saying. Hopefully that’s clear enough.

  • Supersharpie

    @bluestooges said...

    I think the REAL reason for the added late swap is to try and make DK and FD as similar as possible since they merged. The more similar they are the less headaches for them when we only have one choice.

    Even after the merger is completed I think they will continue offering the FD and DK branded contests.

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