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  • FDRep

    • FanDuel Representative

    Hey all!

    I wanted to announce that we’ve changed our NBA format for 2019. After months of user feedback and testing, we’ve decided to revert to our traditional NBA format. That means that we’ll no longer drop your lowest score, so all 9 of your players’ scores will count. And we won’t be offering late swap on Full Roster NBA contests.

    We know that late scratches are a problem in fantasy basketball, and late swap is one way to help mitigate that problem. But we’re committed to keeping FanDuel fair and fun for all players, and NBA late swap doesn’t do that. This format makes it easier for fans to set their lineups then sit back and enjoy the games — without worrying about constantly checking player news or tweaking their lineups late into the night. We want to make basketball more fun, not more work.

    We’ll continue to explore how we can make our NBA product better for everyone.

    Thanks for playing! And to those of you I owe email responses to, they’re coming this week – Sportsbook has been taking up a lot of my time!

    - NB

  • Zieg30

    • 615

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @sochoice said...

    They did offer late swap and non-late swap options in the past and the late swap options were so small because almost nobody played those contests. So, even though it may differ from your opinion, the no late swap option has been overwhelmingly more popular on FD.

    Whichever contest was sized much larger was going to get the entrants. It had nothing to do with whether there was or was not late swap offered in the contest.

    If FD had a $300k $10 entry contest with late swap, and a $30k $10 entry contest without late swap, the former would be much more popular.

    If FD had a $300k $10 entry contest without late swap, and a $30k $10 entry contest with late swap, the former would be much more popular.

    If we truly wanted to be able to use contest entries to determine popularity, FD would have to offer the same exact size contests offering late swap and non-late swap. In my view, the single biggest factor in getting entrants into a contest are the prizes offered, not these ancillary rules.

  • Zieg30

    • 615

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @SkateFiend said...

    By choices I’m referring to your ability to edit lineups and field a competitive lineup as time would allow it.The people who are in favor of late swap want to introduce a handicap to the game so it can artificially cripple volume players’ chances.

    My understanding is that volume players (typically the mass entry crowd who do this for a living) overwhelmingly prefer late swap. It doesn’t cripple them, it permits increased opportunities to gain value against the field. As has been said here and elsewhere, they use late swap strategically, not like many who just do 1 to 1 swaps.

    I don’t see volume players complaining about late swap here because it takes them more time to swap players out. Those who play with heavy volumes tend to not be doing everything manually, so it actually doesn’t hinder them in any way.

  • Smallchimp

    @Zieg30 said...

    If we truly wanted to be able to use contest entries to determine popularity, FD would have to offer the same exact size contests offering late swap and non-late swap. In my view, the single biggest factor in getting entrants into a contest are the prizes offered, not these ancillary rules

    Ultimately that’s what it comes down to. If all things are equal besides late swap or no late swap, you can see what the preference is and whether it makes sense to say “go play on DK if you want late swap” or to just offer meaningfully-sized contests of both settings.

    At the end of the day it doesn’t really matter to me, DraftKings offers a product I’m entirely fine being exclusive with, but it just seems like there’s a lot of weird standards at play here.

  • Wrx_guy

    @Smallchimp said...

    Really can’t understand the hype against late swap, “spending time with my family instead of watching actives/inactives” seems like such an artificial reason. Spend 2 minutes before each game starts checking the roster, it isn’t like you need to be chained to your work station lol

    Glad to hear FD realized “drop the lowest” was a bad format, I think I’ll be playing a little bit of NBA over there this season!

    You guys have to realize that many pros would make dummy lineups, try out a bunch of combos from the early games. Then when they hit the right combo they would adjust the later players accordingly to maximize their potential points. I know it may seem harmless but it’s really not fair to the average guy who makes 1 lineup and is done after 30 mins of game start.

  • Smallchimp

    @Wrx_guy said...

    You guys have to realize that many pros would make dummy lineups, try out a bunch of combos from the early games. Then when they hit the right combo they would adjust the later players accordingly to maximize their potential points. I know it may seem harmless but it’s really not fair to the average guy who makes 1 lineup and is done after 30 mins of game start.

    As another poster said, realistically, is a high-volume player at that much of a disadvantage with no late swap? In a 150 entry contest, even if half are dudded by a 0 from a stud, they still have up to 75x more chances to bink a contest than another player. At least late swap allows a player to stop their lineup from being left in the dust because one of their roster spots was essentially empty. It’s not fair to the average guy who makes 1 lineup and is done before tip-off.

    There’s arguments on both side and it comes down to preference. As long as Fanduel is no late swap, DraftKings is an alternative.

  • Njsum1

    @Smallchimp said...

    As another poster said, realistically, is a high-volume player at that much of a disadvantage with no late swap? In a 150 entry contest, even if half are dudded by a 0 from a stud, they still have up to 75x more chances to bink a contest than another player. At least late swap allows a player to stop their lineup from being left in the dust because one of their roster spots was essentially empty. It’s not fair to the average guy who makes 1 lineup and is done before tip-off

    I won’t argue late swap versus no late swap, as there was a 60 page thread dedicated to this topic, and I’ve come to realize as you said, it’s really just a preference. And since it’s a preference, the best situation is to have choices so everyone can at least be somewhat satisfied.

    Howeverrrrrrrrrrrrrr 😉😁…you’re 100% incorrect with your argument. Yes of course, a highly skilled high volume player is going to have an ENORMOUS edge with late swap. I won’t use the word advantage as a high volume highly skilled player will always have an advantage on your average Joe, no matter the scoring system or swap-ability 🤔 setting.

    You’re only making one side of the argument. How about on nights when a high owned stud gets late scratched yet isn’t in your average players lineup, yet is in 50% of high volume players’ lineups? That presents a huge advantage for your average Joe. And over the course of the season, this will benefit the average Joe far more than the reverse will be to his/her detriment. Think about it, Thousands of sharp lineups are being taken out of contention.

    As previously mentioned, high volume players make dummy lineups, then re-optimize for the late games in their strongest lineups. Average players won’t do this. They’ll just use the late swap to swap off a scratch.

    Furthermore, if a player is late scratched, you better believe casual, even some causal/serious players may miss the news, and leave the scratched player in their lineups, yet every single high volume pro will have that player swapped out of every single one of their lineups, and due to advanced programming knowledge will be able to reoptimize all their lineups.

    Again late swap is a preference (and I don’t mind either format) yet don’t try arguing that late swap in NBA doesn’t benefit high volume, highly skilled players with advanced technical know how, as that’s exactly who it benefits most in large multi entry GPP’s. The only real argument is that casual players would rather be at a disadvantage every night than have to see a Zero in their lineup. Which I understand and the main reason I support both formats.

  • tomac

    Let’s not act like we are all starting out on level ground. Single lineup guys are at a disadvantage from the jump. With no late swap, a 0 leaves them dead. At least late swap gives them a chance.

  • gaelicgirl

    @tomac said...

    Let’s not act like we are all starting out on level ground. Single lineup guys are at a disadvantage from the jump. With no late swap, a 0 leaves them dead. At least late swap gives them a chance.

    If you’re throwing a single lineup into a MME contest, with or without late swap, you might as well just light your money on fire.

  • Njsum1

    @tomac said...

    Let’s not act like we are all starting out on level ground. Single lineup guys are at a disadvantage from the jump. With no late swap, a 0 leaves them dead. At least late swap gives them a chance.

    Again, I’m not arguing for or against late swap, as I play both formats and see the merits in both.

    Yet this is simply an incomplete, inaccurate, one sided argument that doesn’t take into account what happens when the single lineup player does NOT have the highly owned late scratch in their lineup.

    I’ll use math to show you how the single entry player is much better off with no late swap. For simplicities sake let say this scratched player is 50% owned and we’ll assume an equal luck distribution over a 2 slate sample size. And let’s say the GPP pays out top 20%, and the single entry player is of average skill.

    1st scenario…single entry player has the late scratch. Goes from a 20% chance of cashing to let’s just say 0%. (Even though it’s slightly higher than 0)

    2nd scenario…single entry player does not have the late scratch. He/she now goes from a 20% chance of cashing to 40% (even though it’s slightly less than 40%, yet if we assume 0% in example 1 we’ll assume 40% in example 2. The take away is that if a 50% owned player scratches, the single entry player’s chances of cashing double if he does not own the player).

    However……now the cash lines are lower. Lower cash lines not only doubles the probability of min-cashing, it more importantly increases the probability of achieving a higher than min-cash. And therein lies one of the advantages in no late swap for the single entry player in an MME GPP. Which is, the increased probability of an above min cash on the nights they don’t have the scratched player in their lineups.

    Then there’s the basic probability theory argument, which is the other advantage.

    If single entry player was to have 2 20% chances at a min cash, the odds of cashing one would be 36%. 1-Failure rate times failure rate= probability for success. So…. .8 x. 8=.64 1-.64=36%

    So on top of the higher probability of a deeper than min cash, his/her probability of a min cash also increases from 36% to 40%. In every which way no late swap benefits the single entry player.

  • DefinitelyMiami

    @gaelicgirl said...

    If you’re throwing a single lineup into a MME contest, with or without late swap, you might as well just light your money on fire.

    That’s just stupid

  • stv1313

    I support the system that Fanduel will be using this season. I HATED the drop-a-score format and I’m happy that they are going without late swap. As we all understand, there are merits to/against late swap and I appreciate the fact that the two major sites will be offering different options. On nights when I feel late swap benefits me, I’ll put a little more action on DK. On nights when I want to “lock, load, and forget about it”, I’ll shift towards Fanduel. I think that the two different options are good for the industry.

    With that being said, I am exclusively a single entry/lineup player – which means that I’m (apparently) at a disadvantage from the start. I’ll probably go broke in a month or two. :-)

  • miggs6876

    @tmarohl said...

    Fanduel finally listening to bitching customers like me :)

    I’m disappointed. I was one of the few who liked the format. The drop the score format allowed me to take more risk because I only play a couple of lineups. Gonna be harder for people like me.

  • SkateFiend

    @Zieg30 said...

    My understanding is that volume players (typically the mass entry crowd who do this for a living) overwhelmingly prefer late swap. It doesn’t cripple them, it permits increased opportunities to gain value against the field. As has been said here and elsewhere, they use late swap strategically, not like many who just do 1 to 1 swaps.

    I don’t see volume players complaining about late swap here because it takes them more time to swap players out. Those who play with heavy volumes tend to not be doing everything manually, so it actually doesn’t hinder them in any way.

    I meant to say people who are AGAINST late swap want to handicap the game.

    I’m for late swap and I play maybe 4 lineups per site. If you do this for a living, you probably don’t want to see a few hundred bucks go down the toilet 2 hours before tipoff.

  • tmarohl

    @miggs6876 said...

    I’m disappointed. I was one of the few who liked the format. The drop the score format allowed me to take more risk because I only play a couple of lineups. Gonna be harder for people like me.

    It’s not a risk when everyone had to do it. All it really did was allow people to take another stud buy playing a minimum priced scrub somewhere. It did not protect against late scratches like it was intended to do.

  • Smallchimp

    @tmarohl said...

    It’s not a risk when everyone had to do it. All it really did was allow people to take another stud buy playing a minimum priced scrub somewhere. It did not protect against late scratches like it was intended to do.

    Yup. The system was gamed so they scrapped it

  • noddy

    @stv1313 said...

    I support the system that Fanduel will be using this season. I HATED the drop-a-score format and I’m happy that they are going without late swap. As we all understand, there are merits to/against late swap and I appreciate the fact that the two major sites will be offering different options. On nights when I feel late swap benefits me, I’ll put a little more action on DK. On nights when I want to “lock, load, and forget about it”, I’ll shift towards Fanduel. I think that the two different options are good for the industry.

    With that being said, I am exclusively a single entry/lineup player – which means that I’m (apparently) at a disadvantage from the start. I’ll probably go broke in a month or two. :-)

    well said

  • madmanjayWV

    @kujo33 said...

    Awesome drop a score was ridiculous. Will be interesting to see what the contest offerings are like this year.

    A 20 or 50 or 100 or 150 $1MAX ENTRY GPP would be nice.

    And not paying out total CRAP in the $0.25 AYDS ARCADE and please for the love of god get rid of the $0.60 PAYOUT TIER….

  • Zieg30

    • 615

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2018 DraftKings FGWC Finalist

    @tomac said...

    Let’s not act like we are all starting out on level ground. Single lineup guys are at a disadvantage from the jump. With no late swap, a 0 leaves them dead. At least late swap gives them a chance.

    Single lineup guys are indeed at a disadvantage from the jump, but late swap only increases that disadvantage. Permitting the mass-entry guys to optimize their large number of lineups throughout the night only exacerbates the situation.

    Sure, single entry guys will face the occasional frustrating situation where their lineup is killed by a 0, but over time, they will actually do better without late swap.

    That said, I get that sometimes people would prefer to just have something to root for and would prefer to hurt their chances to actually succeed in the name of entertainment. That’s fine too.

  • thedkexperience

    A few things …

    1 – even if you’re a serious player, just don’t play NBA like it’s the NFL. NBA DFS really isn’t built to change your life with winnings. You don’t need to drop $100+ into 40 LUs when 2 or 3 LUs for $10-$20 or less will be sufficient. If those amounts of money don’t matter to you then add a zero on them. The point is that if you’re not a 150 LU pro you really need to just pump the breaks during NBA (and NHL, MLB) because there will be another game tomorrow.

    2 – Due to this a late scratch shouldn’t murder your bankroll. It might suck, no one likes lighting money on fire but it shouldn’t cripple you if you have a bit of bankroll management.

    3 – personally I prefer the new rules. I’m as up to date as any non-pro can be. It helps that I’m single, have no kids and can essentially do whatever I want after 5PM. As a “hardcore casual” (I’m certainly not a pro but am profitable at DFS) I have no inclination to ever run 150 LUs but will be on top of the news as much as anyone reasonably can be. Ultimately if I get screwed by a late swap so be it. That’s why I run two LUs.

  • kujo33

    @madmanjayWV said...

    A 20 or 50 or 100 or 150 $1MAX ENTRY GPP would be nice.

    And not paying out total CRAP in the $0.25 AYDS ARCADE and please for the love of god get rid of the $0.60 PAYOUT TIER….

    Would love to see a significant price pool in a 20 max at a lower entry fee (under $5).

  • mattyice522

    @BerkeleyBoss said...

    I play FD NBA every day and I don’t want late swap. Set it and forget it!

    They should do late swap when it gets toward the end of the season though. Thats when the late scratches start to flow in en masse.

  • SkateFiend

    @Zieg30 said...

    Single lineup guys are indeed at a disadvantage from the jump, but late swap only increases that disadvantage.

    The disadvantage of casual players is significant enough that a tiny bit of advantage gained with late swap will be negated by zeros torpedoing lineups that would have been saved with late swap. Some people play 50 lineups a days, some will play thousands. At the at the day only about 5-10% of players will be profitable in the end. What happens to them or the rest of the field has little bearing on my chances in the long run. If the success rate of pros like Chipotle is reduced by 25% on one night for any reason, it just won’t to benefit my 3,4 lineups in a meaningful way.

    By the virtue of playing only small amount of lineups I’ve dodged plenty of late scratches. That has resulted in big wins for me 0% of the time. Maybe min cash and 3X entry fee. If LBJ was a late scratched at 40% ownership and none of my lineups had LBJ….. it usually means nothing. That’s just how the NBA is. The scoring is through the roof and volume contributors are aplenty. A 30 DFS point performance from Blake Griffin is just as effective in eliminating my lineups as a 0 from LBJ.

    Meanwhile If one of my players do get late scratched, 99% of the time I lost money. I think I cashed ONCE with a late scratched NBA lineup.

    I suspect that volume players hedge their bets when late scratches can be anticipated. I may put in one or two Kyle Kuzma lineup when LBJ seems creaky and is rumored to be rested in a week. The pros may enter 50-100 Kyle Kuzma lineups in different combos. I’m not sure how they adjust to sites with no late swap, but it’s probably not something I can do.

  • miggs6876

    @Zieg30 said...

    Single lineup guys are indeed at a disadvantage from the jump, but late swap only increases that disadvantage. Permitting the mass-entry guys to optimize their large number of lineups throughout the night only exacerbates the situation.

    Sure, single entry guys will face the occasional frustrating situation where their lineup is killed by a 0, but over time, they will actually do better without late swap.

    That said, I get that sometimes people would prefer to just have something to root for and would prefer to hurt their chances to actually succeed in the name of entertainment. That’s fine too.

    Good post. You took the words out of my mouth.👍

  • miggs6876

    I would like to hear some input on single entry gpp plays. Aren’t we all on the same level playing field since it only 1 lineup? I usually just play $1 , $2, or $5 single entry gpp.

  • gaelicgirl

    @miggs6876 said...

    I would like to hear some input on single entry gpp plays. Aren’t we all on the same level playing field since it only 1 lineup? I usually just play $1 , $2, or $5 single entry gpp.

    Yes, that’s the most level playing field. I always play the $1 and $2 single entry contests on FD, but will also play multiple entry under certain conditions. In preseason I’ll throw a single lineup into the 8 max because the field is only 297 people. If they bring back the 3 max for regular season, I’ll play those as well because it only costs $3 to have 3 entries.

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