INDUSTRY FORUM

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  • Mountain_Cobra

    Is anyone else having trouble getting paid out by Fantasy Up? I submitted a withdrawal request for some of my funds over a month ago but I still haven’t been paid, despite the fact that I have exchanged many emails with them They keep promising that funds will be paid out shortly but then they go radio silent until I email them again.

    Does anyone have any recommendations about what I should do if they continue to fail to pay? I would prefer not to take legal action because of the cost and inconvenience (and because up until now they’ve provided a good service) but at this stage I don’t know what other options I have.

    Admin Note: This situation was eventually resolved when FantasyUp player accounts were purchased by the iTeam Network. Gabe Hunterton’s post is copied below. You can also read it on page 30 of this thread:

    iTeamGabe’s (Gabe Hunterton, CEO) post:

    I’m happy to be the bearer of good news. As Dustin from LSR reported yesterday, iTEAM Network has executed an agreement with FantasyUp. When we heard about the situation a couple weeks ago, we decided to do something about it.
    We announced today an agreement with the former owners of FantasyUp to acquire the www.fantasyup.com domain and customer data. Paying back FantasyUp players was the key component in this deal. No one affiliated with the original FantasyUp has any involvement whatsoever moving forward.
    After you activate your account, your funds will be immediately available for withdrawal, although we do hope you give us a chance to earn your trust and loyalty by playing in our contests. We think you will appreciate our first class customer support and our unwavering commitment to game integrity. To welcome you to the new FantasyUp.com, we’re putting on a series of overlay contests exclusively for FantasyUp players, beginning with the “FantasyUp – Fresh Start” contest; that features a $1,000 Guaranteed Prize Pool, with a Maximum of 1,100 entries and a buy in of just ONE CENT!
    While you’re playing, take a look at our unique software features like our patented “Sweat List” which shows you not only who you are rooting for, but just as importantly, who you are rooting against. Since launching five months ago, we’ve made significant investments and built our software development team to over 40 full time employees. You can expect major product development and innovation from us throughout 2016.
    Getting the site up-and-running and paying back players is a complex challenge involving technical, practical and regulatory hurdles affecting thousands of player accounts. We ask for your continued patience as we work together through this process, particularly if you reside in one of the banned jurisdictions.
    We have just begun the process of sending an email to all users who have an existing account balance.
    For further information about our agreement with FantasyUp and how it affects you, we are regularly updating the FAQ page at www.fantasyup.info. In addition, you can email us anytime at support@fantasyup.com.

  • joephoto

    Also-
    This week I joined Fantasy Hub (after good feedback). I deposited $300 and got a 500% or $1500 match for a bonus account (paid back 4% as I play). I don’t want or need another bonus account somewhere else.
    My player account on any site will NEVER be higher than this $300.

  • Csufantasy

    @WhiskeyTavon4 said...

    Would love to see any form of source or evidence for your unique user argument. Fanduel has never in existence bought out a smaller competitor and Draftkings did twice I believe with starstreet and draftstreet. Not sure who the third is in your big 3 since there isnt really one. FD and DK have no reason to buy out any current smaller competitor but I fail to see what that has to do with the fantasy up situation. As for the legality argument over bonus money when other sites have already done it a number of other times not sure I understand what is illegal about it if everyone agrees to it. Who would sue a site after it bailed them out and what law does it violate? Perhaps I am overlooking something but it seems totally legal to me. Dont understand the restrictions and what is illegal about it.

    In regards to your estimation of our legal chances. I am not interested in going into too much detail on this board but both separate law practices I spoke to directly contradicted the information you are relaying. Perhaps they were blowing smoke up my ass to acquire my business but in regards to purposeful fraud there is a mountain of evidence that it indeed was committed in this case.

    I never understand the poker stuff on this board. It is totally different. All those sites were operating offshore and not within the confines of the US criminal justice system. The poker companies got busted for money laundering and alleged bank fraud. Also, why would the collapse of the offshore poker industry make one leery of smaller companies. The DOJ suit was filed against the three biggest offshore operators and the two that stiffed their customers, Absolute and Full Tilt were hardly small companies.

    Maybe you are totally correct in your legal and business assumptions and I am totally wrong on both fronts, it would not totally surprise me, I would just like to see some factual basis for those opinions.

    I never said they were buying companies I said they weren’t buying. The reason again is their is no incentive for Draft Kings or Fan Duel to buy anyone at this point because the likelihood of acquiring new users from a site like fantasy up is extremely low. The majority of people playing on these sites play on Fan Duel or Draft Kings also if not both. The purchases of one dfs company buying another haven’t created the large growth for the companies buying. I have stated and believe that Yahoo is the only real competitor with Fan Duel or Draft Kings that can compete in the long run with them. They need to invest more money in it but they have the built in user base to be competitive in the long run.

    When it comes to the bonus money maybe I misinterpreted what you said. I thought you were saying a new company should take over the accounts and then put restrictions on it like bonus money so that people would have to play it and not withdraw it right away as protection for the new company. If a new company was to purchase a company they wouldn’t be allowed legally to put restrictions on previously unrestricted money.

    As for the attorneys I would bet the house they want the opportunity to get their names out in the media. They have to prove active fraud. If it can be shown that the players fund depleted because of card fees, tourney overlays etc then you can only sue the company at least in most states by my interpretation of it. To sue an individual in the company you have to prove they purposely stole or committed fraud. That honestly doesn’t seem to be the case from what I have seen. I think the company failed and he went belly up. I doubt he is sitting on some big cash pile. So you have a bankrupt company and an individual who will declare bankruptcy most likely if successfully sued. The attorneys are right in that you very well could have a case the odds of you ever collecting anything from this case is slim. Unless he is sitting on a large amount of assets you are basically SOL.

    My point about the poker is simply people that trusted leaving large balances in their accounts were naive. You are not going to find many of us who struggled with getting money out leaving signifcant cash in these accounts. The only one I would trust is Yahoo to pay out. The players accounts are peanuts to Yahoos bottom line. Even fan duel and draftkings I pull after every quality hit. Leave myself 200 are less always.

  • Csufantasy

    @joephoto said...

    Also-
    This week I joined Fantasy Hub (after good feedback). I deposited $300 and got a 500% or $1500 match for a bonus account (paid back 4% as I play). I don’t want or need another bonus account somewhere else.
    My player account on any site will NEVER be higher than this $300.

    Most of us had real money sitting with DAN ZIERNICKI in a “pending withdrawal” that never happened. He stole real “pending withdrawal” money that I counted on for Christmastime.
    FSTA can go talk amongst themselves all they want, but I know they don’t care about us at all.

    Nobody is gonna shut us up. We are mad. Thank you RotoGrinders for this forum.

    50 AGs now have their “prime example”.

    It’s gonna get bad.

    Do you have any proof that he stole it? Or did the business just flop and he ran out of money? For your sake I hope he stole it. Something might be recoverable. If I guessed though he just went belly up and I think we will see other sites do this also.

  • Ryazan

    • x3

      2015 FanDuel WFFC Finalist

    • x2

      2015 FanDuel WFBC Finalist

    @Csufantasy said...

    Do you have any proof that he stole it? Or did the business just flop and he ran out of money? For your sake I hope he stole it. Something might be recoverable. If I guessed though he just went belly up and I think we will see other sites do this also.

    where is your logic? The business flopped alright, but Dan used player funds and put that into the business, instead of keeping them separate.

    yes, he stole money from many people by using deposits as if it were his own money.

    I am waiting for him to go to jail for this.

  • WhiskeyTavon4

    • 563

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • x2

      2014 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Csufantasy said...

    I never said they were buying companies I said they weren’t buying. The reason again is their is no incentive for Draft Kings or Fan Duel to buy anyone at this point because the likelihood of acquiring new users from a site like fantasy up is extremely low. The majority of people playing on these sites play on Fan Duel or Draft Kings also if not both. The purchases of one dfs company buying another haven’t created the large growth for the companies buying. I have stated and believe that Yahoo is the only real competitor with Fan Duel or Draft Kings that can compete in the long run with them. They need to invest more money in it but they have the built in user base to be competitive in the long run.

    When it comes to the bonus money maybe I misinterpreted what you said. I thought you were saying a new company should take over the accounts and then put restrictions on it like bonus money so that people would have to play it and not withdraw it right away as protection for the new company. If a new company was to purchase a company they wouldn’t be allowed legally to put restrictions on previously unrestricted money.

    As for the attorneys I would bet the house they want the opportunity to get their names out in the media. They have to prove active fraud. If it can be shown that the players fund depleted because of card fees, tourney overlays etc then you can only sue the company at least in most states by my interpretation of it. To sue an individual in the company you have to prove they purposely stole or committed fraud. That honestly doesn’t seem to be the case from what I have seen. I think the company failed and he went belly up. I doubt he is sitting on some big cash pile. So you have a bankrupt company and an individual who will declare bankruptcy most likely if successfully sued. The attorneys are right in that you very well could have a case the odds of you ever collecting anything from this case is slim. Unless he is sitting on a large amount of assets you are basically SOL.

    My point about the poker is simply people that trusted leaving large balances in their accounts were naive. You are not going to find many of us who struggled with getting money out leaving signifcant cash in these accounts. The only one I would trust is Yahoo to pay out. The players accounts are peanuts to Yahoos bottom line. Even fan duel and draftkings I pull after every quality hit. Leave myself 200 are less always.

    My point was that they have never been buying. Not sure how you can say that the purchase of one dfs site buying another hasnt created growth for the buying company with zero evidence to back up that statement. My secondary point was that whether FD or DK attempt to acquire new users from other sites has nothing to do with a smaller site bailing out the Fantasy Up users. I agree it would not make sense for FD or DK to bail out. I disagree strongly that it would not be a good idea for an up an coming site like Fantasy Aces to consider a bail out for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

    Unless I am missing something which is always possible I dont see how anyone who had their funds stolen by Fantasy UP would answer that they would rather have nothing when posed with the question” Would you rather have your funds in bonus balance at Fantasy Aces or nothing”.

    I also fail to see which law this breaks. Considering all the nonsense that has perpetrated by several DFS sites over the last few years the transgression of bailing out players with the intent on helping them by converting real funds from one site to bonus funds from another site is really low on the list of potentially illegal occurences.

    I guess my problem with most if not all of your statements and declarations is you really actually have no idea what you are talking about or a the very least have shown no purposeful evidence to back up your quasi interpretations of the laws of different states. When you say that honestly doesnt seem to be the case from what you have seen therein lies the problem, you havent seen much and arent privy to the information our group has uncovered.

    You also have zero idea about the personal finances of Mr. Ziernicki. Zero idea. Not sure why you are putting out false information but it is personally infuriating.

    I am not sure what group of people at the FSTA approached Mr. Ziernicki or what his response was ( other than his ludicrous post in this form ) but it would certainly be nice if they shared that information with our 30 person group since it effects us more than anybody else.

  • joephoto

    @Csufantasy said...

    Do you have any proof that he stole it? Or did the business just flop and he ran out of money? For your sake I hope he stole it. Something might be recoverable. If I guessed though he just went belly up and I think we will see other sites do this also.

    He posted our withdrawals as being “pending withdrawals”. Then people got lied to for 2 months and didn’t get their money over Christmastime. Who withdrew our “pending withdrawals” do you think ?

    Lying to us should be FRAUD right. ? His site page used language about our deposits being “safe” in “separate” accounts.

    Stop sticking up for this guy.

  • Csufantasy

    @WhiskeyTavon4 said...

    My point was that they have never been buying. Not sure how you can say that the purchase of one dfs site buying another hasnt created growth for the buying company with zero evidence to back up that statement. My secondary point was that whether FD or DK attempt to acquire new users from other sites has nothing to do with a smaller site bailing out the Fantasy Up users. I agree it would not make sense for FD or DK to bail out. I disagree strongly that it would not be a good idea for an up an coming site like Fantasy Aces to consider a bail out for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

    Unless I am missing something which is always possible I dont see how anyone who had their funds stolen by Fantasy UP would answer that they would rather have nothing when posed with the question” Would you rather have your funds in bonus balance at Fantasy Aces or nothing”.

    I also fail to see which law this breaks. Considering all the nonsense that has perpetrated by several DFS sites over the last few years the transgression of bailing out players with the intent on helping them by converting real funds from one site to bonus funds from another site is really low on the list of potentially illegal occurences.

    I guess my problem with most if not all of your statements and declarations is you really actually have no idea what you are talking about or a the very least have shown no purposeful evidence to back up your quasi interpretations of the laws of different states. When you say that honestly doesnt seem to be the case from what you have seen therein lies the problem, you havent seen much and arent privy to the information our group has uncovered.

    You also have zero idea about the personal finances of Mr. Ziernicki. Zero idea. Not sure why you are putting out false information but it is personally infuriating.

    I am not sure what group of people at the FSTA approached Mr. Ziernicki or what his response was ( other than his ludicrous post in this form ) but it would certainly be nice if they shared that information with our 30 person group since it effects us more than anybody else.

    I could care less if you personally are infuriated by posts. If they upset you don’t bother to read them. I’m just being brutally honest about the situation.

    I can’t make this anymore clear. If any fantasy company buys out fantasy up then they are now liable for those player balances. They can’t just convert them to bonus money. Anyone that had an account with fantasy up would be able to sue the purchasing company for the money. Makes zero sense for any company to take on that liability.

    Now is it hypothetically possible some company could not buy out fantasy up but provide an incentive to those that got screwed in this? Yes, but it would have to be in a way that new company thought was profitable. Not sure that would be anything that is going to satisfy your loss.

    As for the growth of sites when it comes to purchasing others. I do have more information on it then you would. Whether you believe me or not its not really beneficial.

    My guess is no one at FSTA has any positive news to share which is why there has been no response. At this point the company doesn’t have any real value. The name is tarnished the players on the site would no longer trust it even under new ownership.

    As for his personal situation I said it was based on situations with companies that have collapsed like this before. I am just wanting to fairly warn people the likelihood of getting anything out of this is probably less then 50/50. If that makes you infuriated with me or the bad guy so be it. I didn’t mismanage your money. I said I hope I am wrong on all this. I hope someone bails you all out or he finds a way to make good. I don’t expect that to happen and I don’t expect to him to go to jail either as some posters have stated.

  • bfos

    @tjabchs6 said...

    You need to think about the implications of that a little bit further, and what that actually accomplishes.

    Versus the implications of allowing the industry to pretend like this didn’t happened and couldn’t happen again just as easily? What exactly would that accomplish?

  • cAUmberlandtiger8

    @Ryazan said...

    where is your logic? The business flopped alright, but Dan used player funds and put that into the business, instead of keeping them separate.

    yes, he stole money from many people by using deposits as if it were his own money.

    I am waiting for him to go to jail for this.

    Im pretty sure segregated DFS player funds are not mandated by current laws, like other highly regulated industries. Although the FU terms of service may help or hurt the players. The segregated player funds are highly encouraged by the FSTA, but not mandated. This is one area of contention that the states will attempt to regulate (this is a good regulation). An example of a segregated account is that of an attorney’s trust account. Attorneys are required to deposit retainers into a trust account and then draw from that trust account as they invoice their clients for services rendered. If they take money out of that trust account without having “earned” the withdrawal, they can get popped pretty hard. There is a significant distinction between using the players funds for FU “business purposes” and taking money that was deposited into FU and buying his girlfriend a Porsche. People incorporate their business to shield themselves, however there are certain instances where they can still be personally liable for the companies debts.

  • WhiskeyTavon4

    • 563

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

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      2014 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Csufantasy said...

    I could care less if you personally are infuriated by posts. If they upset you don’t bother to read them. I’m just being brutally honest about the situation.

    I can’t make this anymore clear. If any fantasy company buys out fantasy up then they are now liable for those player balances. They can’t just convert them to bonus money. Anyone that had an account with fantasy up would be able to sue the purchasing company for the money. Makes zero sense for any company to take on that liability.

    Now is it hypothetically possible some company could not buy out fantasy up but provide an incentive to those that got screwed in this? Yes, but it would have to be in a way that new company thought was profitable. Not sure that would be anything that is going to satisfy your loss.

    As for the growth of sites when it comes to purchasing others. I do have more information on it then you would. Whether you believe me or not its not really beneficial.

    My guess is no one at FSTA has any positive news to share which is why there has been no response. At this point the company doesn’t have any real value. The name is tarnished the players on the site would no longer trust it even under new ownership.

    As for his personal situation I said it was based on situations with companies that have collapsed like this before. I am just wanting to fairly warn people the likelihood of getting anything out of this is probably less then 50/50. If that makes you infuriated with me or the bad guy so be it. I didn’t mismanage your money. I said I hope I am wrong on all this. I hope someone bails you all out or he finds a way to make good. I don’t expect that to happen and I don’t expect to him to go to jail either as some posters have stated.

    I am personally infuriated not by your viewpoint but by your continual spewing of nonsense under the guise of “your guesses” or your unsupported theories. You have zero idea about Mr. Ziernicki’s personal finances. You have zero idea about how the company was run, its financials, how it allocated its funds, etc.

    Not sure how much more clear I have to make this for you. A DFS site can bailout Fantasy UP players without purchasing the company. It is really simple. You just acquire the player balances and offer all those effected the option of nothing or to have their money placed at your site as bonus funds. This violates no law and If you think otherwise please in your brutally honest fashion post it on the board for us all to read.

    You make it seem like their is some large reservoir of data at your disposal on the topic of one DFS site purchasing another. I I fail to see how this is possible since in the history of the industry this has happened maybe a dozen times and within that dozen there was such a wide range of reasons why one site purchased another. I am also very glad you have more information than I would on the topic because of course you do as you know how much information I have had on every topic. You knew Mr. Ziernicki’s personal financial history, you knew every law pertaining to this case, you knew every detail of this case, you knew Mr. Ziernicki did not commit fraud, and of course know you know that the group that contacted him from the FSTA has no positive news to share ( for the record i could care less if it is positive or not, would just seem to be logical to let us in the info loop since we were the ones that actually had our money stolen). My problem is that you know a lot of things, you just have zero evidence to back up any of your assertions.

  • Csufantasy

    @WhiskeyTavon4 said...

    I am personally infuriated not by your viewpoint but by your continual spewing of nonsense under the guise of “your guesses” or your unsupported theories. You have zero idea about Mr. Ziernicki’s personal finances. You have zero idea about how the company was run, its financials, how it allocated its funds, etc.

    Not sure how much more clear I have to make this for you. A DFS site can bailout Fantasy UP players without purchasing the company. It is really simple. You just acquire the player balances and offer all those effected the option of nothing or to have their money placed at your site as bonus funds. This violates no law and If you think otherwise please in your brutally honest fashion post it on the board for us all to read.

    You make it seem like their is some large reservoir of data at your disposal on the topic of one DFS site purchasing another. I I fail to see how this is possible since in the history of the industry this has happened maybe a dozen times and within that dozen there was such a wide range of reasons why one site purchased another. I am also very glad you have more information than I would on the topic because of course you do as you know how much information I have had on every topic. You knew Mr. Ziernicki’s personal financial history, you knew every law pertaining to this case, you knew every detail of this case, you knew Mr. Ziernicki did not commit fraud, and of course know you know that the group that contacted him from the FSTA has no positive news to share ( for the record i could care less if it is positive or not, would just seem to be logical to let us in the info loop since we were the ones that actually had our money stolen). My problem is that you know a lot of things, you just have zero evidence to back up any of your assertions.

    I obviously have signifcant more business knowledge then you. Why would anyone just take over what could be thousands and thousands in debt for no incentive? What reason would a company have to do this? If Fantasy Up couldn’t find someone to do this while the business still had a decent reputation why would someone do it now that the company is in shambles. I’m not doing anything different then anyone else except taking educated guesses as to what is likely to take place.

    I know you are angry and frustrated and I don’t blame you but you really need to breath and develop some reading comprehension. At no point have I stated anything was 100 percent guaranteed. Look at my sentence structure phrases like “i think” “likely” “‘my guess”. When it comes to the liability portion of this I am correct when it comes to the purchase of the company. There wasn’t value in the company.

  • Csufantasy

    As far as data. I did look into investing with a few others in a couple DFS sites. None of us thought we could make it competitive and turn a long term profit. A lot of these companies goals were to just find a buy out. I think people need to be aware of this and realize this probably won’t be the only site to go under and I easily could see this happening again.

  • WhiskeyTavon4

    • 563

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    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • x2

      2014 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Csufantasy said...

    I obviously have signifcant more business knowledge then you. Why would anyone just take over what could be thousands and thousands in debt for no incentive? What reason would a company have to do this? If Fantasy Up couldn’t find someone to do this while the business still had a decent reputation why would someone do it now that the company is in shambles. I’m not doing anything different then anyone else except taking educated guesses as to what is likely to take place.

    I know you are angry and frustrated and I don’t blame you but you really need to breath and develop some reading comprehension. At no point have I stated anything was 100 percent guaranteed. Look at my sentence structure phrases like “i think” “likely” “‘my guess”. When it comes to the liability portion of this I am correct when it comes to the purchase of the company. There wasn’t value in the company.

    Obviously, your business knowledge is legendary and mine is at best lacking and at worse bordering on the asinine. How do I know this? I simply take your word for it . As for reading comprehension. Please re read what I wrote. I never once advocated for any dfs site to take on tens of thousands in debt to bailout fantasy up. Nor have I advocated for any dfs site to buy the worthless fantasy up. I simply stated it would make business sense for a site to acquire the player balance sheet and offer those that had their money stolen the option to have their player balances placed in the new site’s account as bonus money. As I stated in previous posts, there is a large incentive for a site to take this action. Using this method (which for some reason you keep saying is illegal yet have not produced what law you are referring to) a site would not incur any debt and would gain at least some new customers while earning rake from the player bonus balances play through requirement.

    As for educated guesses and your sentence structure. Educated guesses are great and I have no problem with them when they are in fact you know educated and supported by some shred of evidence.

    I guess I just fail to understand why someone with 5 posts total on RG with all of them coming in this specific thread has such a strong opinion on the likelihood of our group recovering our funds.

  • joephoto

    @WhiskeyTavon4 said...

    I guess I just fail to understand why someone with 5 posts total on RG with all of them coming in this specific thread has such a strong opinion on the likelihood of our group recovering our funds.

    I think we know what this guy is doing.

  • Csufantasy

    @WhiskeyTavon4 said...

    Obviously, your business knowledge is legendary and mine is at best lacking and at worse bordering on the asinine. How do I know this? I simply take your word for it . As for reading comprehension. Please re read what I wrote. I never once advocated for any dfs site to take on tens of thousands in debt to bailout fantasy up. Nor have I advocated for any dfs site to buy the worthless fantasy up. I simply stated it would make business sense for a site to acquire the player balance sheet and offer those that had their money stolen the option to have their player balances placed in the new site’s account as bonus money. As I stated in previous posts, there is a large incentive for a site to take this action. Using this method (which for some reason you keep saying is illegal yet have not produced what law you are referring to) a site would not incur any debt and would gain at least some new customers while earning rake from the player bonus balances play through requirement.

    As for educated guesses and your sentence structure. Educated guesses are great and I have no problem with them when they are in fact you know educated and supported by some shred of evidence.

    I guess I just fail to understand why someone with 5 posts total on RG with all of them coming in this specific thread has such a strong opinion on the likelihood of our group recovering our funds.

    No you obviously didn’t read. I clearly stated that if someone bought the company they would be liable for the player balances. They couldn’t just flip these into bonus funds on their site. That would be illegal. They couldnt lock your account up like that with the rare exception of something along the lines of a bankruptcy judge allowing it. That’s slim to none.

    Then I stated yes hypothetically that someone could just decide to provide a bonus for you guys but that also didn’t appear likely to happen since it easily could have been done already.

    I have followed the forums for awhile and was following this situation. I decided to post in hopes of shedding some light on the situation from a business perspective not only on the financial side but give my best interpretation of the legality of it.
    I wanted people to know that I thought the situation sucked and that the likelihood of recovering isn’t very good unfortunately. It’s part of the reason I have been in favor of regulation of DFS. I think it should be legal but it is still the Wild Wild West.

    I came into provide an honest neutral opinion on it thinking I could provide some feedback and answer any questions. Instead what I got was you coming off angry, vindictive, and incompetent. If you didn’t want people discussing it you probably should have avoided a public forum. I hope in some way that everyone becomes whole in this situation but each day that passes tells me what I posted originally a few days back is recovery will be a very difficult process. I thought if anything positive would happen it would have come from the conference. No news from that solidified my viewpoint for me.

  • joephoto

    With 50 AGs using him as their Exhibit A,
    Not hard to predict the ZIERNICKI LAWS will be passed overwhemingly in 2016.

    Thanks DAN.

  • WhiskeyTavon4

    • 563

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • x2

      2014 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    @Csufantasy said...

    Then I stated yes hypothetically that someone could just decide to provide a bonus for you guys but that also didn’t appear likely to happen since it easily could have been done already.

    How could this have been done without first acquiring the player balance sheet. I understand if a dfs site bought fantasy up they would be liable for the player balances, at no point did I suggest this was an option.

    Still dont understand what qualifies you to speak on DFS business or legal matters for which you still have neither provided qualification nor cited any kind of example using documented evidence to back up your vast business acumen.

    As for my incompetency. That is well documented. As for me being angry. I am. I had my money stolen and so did 30 other guys that didnt deserve to have their hard earned money stolen. As for me being vindictive. I probably am that as well. Public forums such as this one are great when people post constructive viewpoints backed up by their own documented specific experiences or you know basic evidence.

    Your posts are so maddening because you continue to pose as some kind of legal DFS expert and state your opinion as fact when you have constantly throughout your long history of 7 posts made totally inaccurate assumptions about the macro and micro of our situation.

  • Csufantasy

    @WhiskeyTavon4 said...

    How could this have been done without first acquiring the player balance sheet. I understand if a dfs site bought fantasy up they would be liable for the player balances, at no point did I suggest this was an option.

    Still dont understand what qualifies you to speak on DFS business or legal matters for which you still have neither provided qualification nor cited any kind of example using documented evidence to back up your vast business acumen.

    As for my incompetency. That is well documented. As for me being angry. I am. I had my money stolen and so did 30 other guys that didnt deserve to have their hard earned money stolen. As for me being vindictive. I probably am that as well. Public forums such as this one are great when people post constructive viewpoints backed up by their own documented specific experiences or you know basic evidence.

    Your posts are so maddening because you continue to pose as some kind of legal DFS expert and state your opinion as fact when you have constantly throughout your long history of 7 posts made totally inaccurate assumptions about the macro and micro of our situation.

    Please point exactly one thing that I stated that was inaccurate.

  • depalma13

    @Csufantasy said...

    Do you have any proof that he stole it? Or did the business just flop and he ran out of money? For your sake I hope he stole it. Something might be recoverable. If I guessed though he just went belly up and I think we will see other sites do this also.

    The company was a fraud the moment he used deposits to pay withdrawals.

  • WhiskeyTavon4

    • 563

      RG Overall Ranking

    • 2017 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    • x2

      2014 DraftKings FBWC Finalist

    Sure. Not a problem.

    1. You said you doubt Dan Ziernicki has a pile of cash. You have no idea how much money he has nor any basis for making your assumption on his personal financial situation.

    2. You said you have more business knowledge than me. You have no idea how much business knowledge I have and at no point have you provided any credentials for your own, specifically in the DFS realm. Obviously, you have a vast understanding of the industry since you will not keep more than $200 in either Fanduel or Draftkings.

    3. You said it was illegal for a DFS site to view the player balance sheet at a bankrupt DFS site and offer those player a bailout in the form of bonus money. There is nothing illegal about this.

    4. You said the purchasing of DFS sites by other sites has not lead to large growth. Source for this. There is about a 12 sample size so clearly you were right.

    5. You said that Ziernicki did not commit fraud based on what you have seen. Although of course you havent really seen anything nor know anything about the companies financials.

    6. You have opined on the chances of our legal case even though again you have not put forth any qualifications, just opinions based on … what exactly.

    7. I could keep going on but I am done. Think it is best if we just agree to disagree. Going to not think about Fantasy UP for the next few days.

  • Csufantasy

    @WhiskeyTavon4 said...

    Sure. Not a problem.

    1. You said you doubt Dan Ziernicki has a pile of cash. You have no idea how much money he has nor any basis for making your assumption on his personal financial situation.

    2. You said you have more business knowledge than me. You have no idea how much business knowledge I have and at no point have you provided any credentials for your own, specifically in the DFS realm. Obviously, you have a vast understanding of the industry since you will not keep more than $200 in either Fanduel or Draftkings.

    3. You said it was illegal for a DFS site to view the player balance sheet at a bankrupt DFS site and offer those player a bailout in the form of bonus money. There is nothing illegal about this.

    4. You said the purchasing of DFS sites by other sites has not lead to large growth. Source for this. There is about a 12 sample size so clearly you were right.

    5. You said that Ziernicki did commit fraud based on what you have seen. Although of course you havent really seen anything nor know anything about the companies financials.

    6. You have opined on the chances of our legal case even though again you have not put forth any qualifications, just opinions based on … what exactly.

    7. I could keep going on but I am done. Think it is best if we just agree to disagree. Going to not think about Fantasy UP for the next few days.

    1.) Yes I seriously doubt he is just sitting on a pile of cash and not paying anyone out. If he is sitting on a pile of cash then he should have been able to easily cover the player accounts. Why ruin his business if he had the funds to keep it going? The vast majority of businesses that go under do so because of bad business decisions and owners usually start from scratch and regroup. So yes the odds say he is most likely not sitting on a ton of cash to cover the player accounts or they would have likely been paid already.

    2.) In your posts it was obvious you lack business knowledge. Thinking that some company is just going to bail everyone out by purchasing the company was posted by several people. When I said this was probably unrealistic you attacked me. If this was a company that was sought after he would have sold it for 1 dollar and let the new company takeover the liability.

    3.) I never once said it was illegal for a DFS company to take a look at another DFS financials. Again this goes back to reading comprehension.

    4.) Talk to people in the industry and investors. Again there is a reading fantasy up couldn’t find a buyer to just take over the liability. If there was growth there shouldn’t have fantasy up been able to find anyone to absorb the site? What proof are you looking for beyond the basic facts?

    5.) Right now there isn’t anything that said he committed fraud. No one has proof that the business just didn’t fail. There are reasons the players fund would deplete even if he kept the funds separate from the rest of the business. Examples such as overlay, the quick picks etc, credit card fees. These things are supposed to be overcome by the rake. It might not have happened. This doesn’t constitute fraud.

    6.) My opinion is based on thousands of other legal cases when a business goes bankrupt. You can sue the business and win but if there are no assets to the business how do you plan on collecting? People use corporations to protect themselves as individuals from lawsuits. That’s why the first thing you do is incorporate when starting a business. If you are unable to understand this it goes back to the lack of business acrumen that I spoke of previously. Now if you can prove fraud AND he has recoverable assets at that point you might get something back. Remember that in most states recoverable assets don’t include a house that he owns his primary vehicle, retirement accounts etc.

    7.) Yes I guess it’s better to agree to disagree but I will continue to post if you are this irritated I just recommend you scroll down and move on with the rest of your day. Again I do wish you guys the best of luck. I think it’s a terrible situation all around.

  • smutpeddlers

    Can someone summarize all these long posts on page 26, but not in a long winded post? My focus left half way down the page……

  • stv1313

    • 950

      RG Overall Ranking

    Since this thread seems to have lost its focus a bit, I’d like to offer some comments:

    I lost a fair share of money when FantasyUp closed shop. At first glance, I fully understand and appreciate that thousands of companies go out of business every year and investors/customers are left holding the bag. Bearing that in mind, I’d describe myself as “a bit perturbed” for the first few days after FantasyUp shut down. At the time, I figured that this was the price of doing business with a smaller site and I wrote this off as a learning experience.

    Since that time, however, I’ve changed my opinion on this topic. To a fault, FantasyUp’s support team personally assured me numerous times that my money was safe. At one point this summer, they even scoffed at some of the posts on this site and assured me (thru individual emails) that individual posters didn’t know what they were talking about and that my money was completely safe.

    Like a fool, I believed them. I continued to play on the site and, while I didn’t deposit additional dollars on the site (I was winning), I left a fair share of money behind. Now that money is gone and I feel cheated. I was lied to. My money wasn’t safe.

    I’ve read all the articles about Dan Ziernicki. He won $3.5 Million on Fanduel and invested a lot of money on this new site – which ultimately failed. With that being said, I personally believe that Dan has the means to “do the right thing” and pay out the $30-$40k of player balances that remained on the site when it closed. After all, this amount represents 1% of the money he won on Fanduel. I just can’t believe that he has lost every single penny of his net worth on this FantasyUp debacle and that he can’t afford to make this final payment to the players who remained loyal to his site to the bitter end.

    Right or wrong, I believe that Dan felt that there was no way that the random 50 people that were playing on his dinky site would be able to do much about the $30,000 that was lost. Legally speaking, that’s probably true. However, I am taking this loss personally. I was lied to. My money wasn’t safe. I don’t appreciate being lied to.

    Because I’m taking this so personally, I am willing to endorse non-conventional methods for reimbursement. Whether this means contacting individual state AG’s to alert them of this debacle or contacting members of Dan’s inner circle, so be it. There are many directions that this can go. Simply put, I just want my money back. I want Dan to do the right thing. It’s particularly annoying that the only time we’ve heard a peep from Mr. Ziernicki was when his father’s resume appeared on this site. For those of you that missed that post, you can find that resume pretty easily via the fabulous world of Google.

    So . . . for those of you hoping that this topic will disappear into the night, keep dreaming. The group that WhiskeyTavon has assembled is impassioned, annoyed, and determined to seek the justful reimbursement of our lost funds.

    We are not going away, Dan Ziernicki. Please . . . just do the right thing and pay us back the money we rightfully deserve. Is that really too much to ask? Are we really being that unreasonable?

  • carp

    @stv1313 said...

    Since this thread seems to have lost its focus a bit, I’d like to offer some comments:

    I lost a fair share of money when FantasyUp closed shop. At first glance, I fully understand and appreciate that thousands of companies go out of business every year and investors/customers are left holding the bag. Bearing that in mind, I’d describe myself as “a bit perturbed” for the first few days after FantasyUp shut down. At the time, I figured that this was the price of doing business with a smaller site and I wrote this off as a learning experience.

    Since that time, however, I’ve changed my opinion on this topic. To a fault, FantasyUp’s support team personally assured me numerous times that my money was safe. At one point this summer, they even scoffed at some of the posts on this site and assured me (thru individual emails) that individual posters didn’t know what they were talking about and that my money was completely safe.

    Like a fool, I believed them. I continued to play on the site and, while I didn’t deposit additional dollars on the site (I was winning), I left a fair share of money behind. Now that money is gone and I feel cheated. I was lied to. My money wasn’t safe.

    I’ve read all the articles about Dan Ziernicki. He won $3.5 Million on Fanduel and invested a lot of money on this new site – which ultimately failed. With that being said, I personally believe that Dan has the means to “do the right thing” and pay out the $30-$40k of player balances that remained on the site when it closed. After all, this amount represents 1% of the money he won on Fanduel. I just can’t believe that he has lost every single penny of his net worth on this FantasyUp debacle and that he can’t afford to make this final payment to the players who remained loyal to his site to the bitter end.

    Right or wrong, I believe that Dan felt that there was no way that the random 50 people that were playing on his dinky site would be able to do much about the $30,000 that was lost. Legally speaking, that’s probably true. However, I am taking this loss personally. I was lied to. My money wasn’t safe. I don’t appreciate being lied to.

    Because I’m taking this so personally, I am willing to endorse non-conventional methods for reimbursement. Whether this means contacting individual state AG’s to alert them of this debacle or contacting members of Dan’s inner circle, so be it. There are many directions that this can go. Simply put, I just want my money back. I want Dan to do the right thing. It’s particularly annoying that the only time we’ve heard a peep from Mr. Ziernicki was when his father’s resume appeared on this site. For those of you that missed that post, you can find that resume pretty easily via the fabulous world of Google.

    So . . . for those of you hoping that this topic will disappear into the night, keep dreaming. The group that WhiskeyTavon has assembled is impassioned, annoyed, and determined to seek the justful reimbursement of our lost funds.

    We are not going away, Dan Ziernicki. Please . . . just do the right thing and pay us back the money we rightfully deserve. Is that really too much to ask? Are we really being that unreasonable?

    Well said Stv! We will not go away!

  • sjm26b

    As a small consolation, owntheplay is offering a free GPP to former members of Fantasyup or Ultimate Bet. http://blog.owntheplay.com/2016/01/16/fantasyup-customers/

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