NHL FORUM

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  • SpoWeezy

    Hey guys,

    I saw that FD sent out an NHL survey by email on 10/24 with questions about the new scoring system. I just took mine and entered the free roll with ~500 people in it, so i figured a decent amount of people in this community must of taken the same survey.

    If you guys don’t mind, I’d love to hear what kind of feedback you all gave them on the new scoring system. Just so I have an idea what they are basing their decisions on. If I’m in the minority on the rule changes then so be it, but would love to hear other thoughts on this.

    Thanks and GLGL this year.

  • kleraudio

    Never got that email….

  • Zieg30

    I told them that I loved their GPP payout %, but disliked the new scoring structure (I prefer lower scores and actually didn’t mind their inclusion of +/- for variety’s sake, it was only PIMs that needed to go) and the sharp drop off between 1st and 10th place in most GPPs.

  • seymour_twine

    SpoWeezy,

    This is my first post on Rotogrinders. I’ve enjoyed competing with you and you’ve always been one of the best NHL players, but I stopped playing with the new scoring changes. The game now feels like a lottery. I answered the survey and sent the following feedback:

    For the past two years, I played NHL almost daily. It took a while to become competitive, but the struggles became a valuable learning experience. I was looking forward to this season. However, the new scoring system has devalued experience, minimized skill and strategy, and trivialized the hours of research I’d do before each contest. What felt like a game of skill now feels like gambling. Before, I felt as if I had a chance each night. I got used to competing with many familiar Fanduel players for first place. It was fun trying to figure out how to beat them. Watching the games seemed to offer an edge. Now, it seems that the most successful strategy would be to mass build lineups together with other players to bypass the entry limits, using a computer program to cover the broadest range of possible outcomes. I’m not interested in doing that, and I’m not interested in competing with anyone who can. I became profitable and everyone wants to be profitable, but the new Fanduel hockey feels designed to attract a different kind of player.

  • SpoWeezy

    Great feedback so far, thanks guys.

    Seymour_twine I always enjoyed competing against you as well and I respect your decision to walk away from the new FD. im considering doing the same and looking for feedback from players like you.

    My answers to the survey were obviously pretty similar. my suggestions was to return to old scoring system. I’d be ok with dropping PIMs for shorthand points.

    Blocked shots needs to go and bring back +\-.

    players mass entering with other players is a serious issue. If that’s going on then I definitely don’t want to be competing in that kind of environment.

  • wisertime

    I took the survey, I think blocked shots are garbage, I suggested to atleast lower the scoring for it. I also suggested lower the scoring for PP goals vs Even strength goals. I suggested lowering the scoring for overtime points and for goalie wins. I didn’t mind +\-, but I didn’t like it in overtime. I still haven’t fully adapted to the new scoring, but I typically start out slow early in the season. I don’t like top heavy prize money with the $3.00 GPP, I would spread it out more, because unless you are in the top 10, it’s really tough to break even on a given night.

  • wahnd

    I like the removal of +/-

  • ediederichsen

    Removal of +\- is good. Blocked shots are dumb. Really really dumb.

  • pokerrob1970

    DraftDay BLB Finalist

    love everything about it other than giving extra points for PP goals. Maybe the win value could be reduced and them go 6 forwards instead of c/w but i like the set up

  • dude_abides7

    I predicted this would be the outcome of the changes. I also predicting that stacking both sides of the same game (which is now viable with the removal of +/-) would create too many “possible winning” scenarios for the average volume player to cover without having to max out every night. Look at some of the winning entries since the start of the season.

    This new FD product is far less enjoyable than last year’s.

    - What is the purpose of removing +/- and leaving in bonuses for power play goals? So you are getting a bonus for a goal that is MORE likely to occur as supposed to even strength? That is nonsensical.

    - Plus/minus could have been lowered to .5 or less, but still retained. See stacking issue above.

    - No one (and I mean no one) asked for blocked shots. We wanted FD, not DK.

    - The removal of PIM makes sense, but did you need to re-haul your entire product to do the ONLY change we really asked for?

    - What was the purpose of up-scaling all the points to 4X? To give us all a free lesson in arithmetic?

    FD dropped the ball big time with this. You see, us NHL’ers are loyal folk. Albeit, NHL DFS doesn’t complete volume wise with MLB or NBA. But to many players, that was the appeal of it. We weren’t going anywhere. We never complained that the GPP’s weren’t big enough.

    ***We complained when you ran a $50K Breakaway on a 3 game slate only to turn around and run a $15K breakaway on a 8 game slate.

    ***We complained when you took 2 months to adjust player salaries or took a week to add 1st/2nd line skaters to the player pool.

    This has to do with paying attention and giving a shit about your NHL product. It wasn’t a road map to completely change it altogether. The fact that some loyal players are quitting just shows how far FD missed the mark on this.

    So why did they miss? They didn’t listen to their core playing audience, but rather skewed the contest to attract the small MME subset to raise entry counts and in the end, their rake. FD made these changes for FD, not to create a better playing experience…not for “us” at least. I for one am not surprised by that.

    I too have lessened my volume considerably and will continue to do so. I have no interest in a system that is looking to mirror the “spray and pray” volume methods that have made NBA/MLB and to some degree NFL unplayable anymore.

    I play for fun and to win some scratch. FD has ruined that. They know it…they just don’t care.

  • SpoWeezy

    @dude_abides7 said...

    I predicted this would be the outcome of the changes. I also predicting that stacking both sides of the same game (which is now viable with the removal of +/-) would create too many “possible winning” scenarios for the average volume player to cover without having to max out every night. Look at some of the winning entries since the start of the season.

    This new FD product is far less enjoyable than last year’s.

    - What is the purpose of removing +/- and leaving in bonuses for power play goals? So you are getting a bonus for a goal that is MORE likely to occur as supposed to even strength? That is nonsensical.

    - Plus/minus could have been lowered to .5 or less, but still retained. See stacking issue above.

    - No one (and I mean no one) asked for blocked shots. We wanted FD, not DK.

    - The removal of PIM makes sense, but did you need to re-haul your entire product to do the ONLY change we really asked for?

    - What was the purpose of up-scaling all the points to 4X? To give us all a free lesson in arithmetic?

    FD dropped the ball big time with this. You see, us NHL’ers are loyal folk. Albeit, NHL DFS doesn’t complete volume wise with MLB or NBA. But to many players, that was the appeal of it. We weren’t going anywhere. We never complained that the GPP’s weren’t big enough.

    ***We complained when you ran a $50K Breakaway on a 3 game slate only to turn around and run a $15K breakaway on a 8 game slate.

    ***We complained when you took 2 months to adjust player salaries or took a week to add 1st/2nd line skaters to the player pool.

    This has to do with paying attention and giving a shit about your NHL product. It wasn’t a road map to completely change it altogether. The fact that some loyal players are quitting just shows how far FD missed the mark on this.

    So why did they miss? They didn’t listen to their core playing audience, but rather skewed the contest to attract the small MME subset to raise entry counts and in the end, their rake. FD made these changes for FD, not to create a better playing experience…not for “us” at least. I for one am not surprised by that.

    I too have lessened my volume considerably and will continue to do so. I have no interest in a system that is looking to mirror the “spray and pray” volume methods that have made NBA/MLB and to some degree NFL unplayable anymore.

    I play for fun and to win some scratch. FD has ruined that. They know it…they just don’t care.

    This is a great post. Please tell me that you took the survey and said this to them.

  • dude_abides7

    @SpoWeezy said...

    This is a great post. Please tell me that you took the survey and said this to them.

    I went back and looked at my inbox and did not see a NHL survey request for 10/24. So unfortunately I did not get to voice this opinion.

    That said, trust me, they already know. They knew this would be the attitude many would have when they made the changes. But they made them anyway. That should tell you all you need to know about why FD did this. Once again, it wasn’t done with their core player base in mind.

    They can make up some song and dance about “making things better for all players” but it is just a smokescreen to hide their true motivation. To turn FD NHL into a MME fiasco where the sites can maximize their rake potential….just like they did with every other sport.

  • J2B

    The new scoring system attracts new players. New players equals more money for experienced players. Don’t know why people are crying about fish coming into the game.

    Blocked shots should be taken out except for the D position.

    +/- sucks and keeps new players from playing. Glad they got rid of it.

    They should add a win and clean sheet bonus to defenders sorta like Soccer.

    Picking defenders would be a lot more research involved and you wouldn’t have people throwing Burns and Buffalo guy in every slate.

  • dude_abides7

    @J2B said...

    The new scoring system attracts new players. New players equals more money for experienced players. Don’t know why people are crying about fish coming into the game.

    ^ This is exactly why the industry is going to hell in a hand basket.

    The purpose of DFS is not to support/adhere to the desires of a small few in their efforts to win all the money at the expense of the rest of user base. That may be YOUR agenda as an individual player and that is perfectly fine and understandable. But it can’t be the agenda of these sites!! It needs to be a co-existing ecosystem where the experience player can thrive and the casual player still wants to hang around because it is STILL fun.

    I like to think of myself as an above average NHL DFS’er. I win, more than I lose. I can’t buy boats, but anytime you can net an extra thousand dollars or two it feels nice. Me winning money and having fun are not tied to one another. I can be profitable and still recognize the product is now shit and no longer fun.

    Seriously, you made the point for me when it looks like you were trying to dismiss it. Great job and thank you.

  • J2B

    Who cares if the product is shit if your profit is on the rise.

    Lose your emotional ties to dfs and focus on the money. It we be mentally healthier for you.

    No reason to have a heart attack over a site getting rid of +\- lol

  • SpoWeezy

    J2B did you take the survey and relay your opinions to FD?

    You’re entitled to your opinion but my purpose for this thread was to find out what kind of information FD is receiving to make their decisions.

    If all they’re getting about +\- is that “it sucks”, then that’s not really enough to remove it imo.

    The way I see it, is +\- offers the potential to increase your score off of just one goal. Especially if you are stacking correctly.

    In the old system (G = 3; A = 2; +\- = 1; SOG = .4) with a line stack, you could have a goal and two assists from 3 players. All 3 would also receive a plus and then .4 for a shot on net.

    That would be 10.4 total points. When you consider the original goal is worth 3 points, that’s an increase of 346% for one goal.

    With the new system (G = 12; A = 8; SOG = 1.6), in the same scenario this goal is worth 29.6 points.

    Considering a goal alone is 12, you’re only getting 246% increase on the goal.

    This is the main reason that I’d like to discuss the changes with other NHL DFS players to see what kind of feedback their giving, and also to get their opinions on it.

    I’m not sure if the new scoring categories are attracting new players or not, but in my opinion, they are taking the edge away from experienced players. This is why I don’t care as much about new “fish” in the game, because the rules are directly affecting my bottom line.

    That is just my exeperience so far though. I’d love to hear all arguments from each side, especially from people who took the survey, because I intend to contact my FD account rep and at least have some data to go on.

  • wahnd

    “what kind of information FD is receiving to make their decisions”..
    I am sure they analyzed their data before and after the changes. They must have been happy with the results and made the change.

    How are you losing your edge?

  • dude_abides7

    @SpoWeezy said...

    J2B did you take the survey and relay your opinions to FD?

    Of course he didn’t. He only has time to ‘focus on the money’.

  • SpoWeezy

    By the reasons I just explained to you. I used +\- as a metric to increase potential on each goal scored.

    By taking it away you also decrease the productivity of a single goal relative to the scoring system. And in return you are tasked with finding the remaining points through stats like blocked shots, which don’t go well with players who add offense to the scoresheet.

    I also don’t think that they reviewed data to make the changes. They sent a survey out over the summer asking for opinions on the scoring system. I talked with my FD rep at length about this and he informed me a couple weeks before the start of the season that they were making the changes.

    This is why their tag line has been that they’ve heard your voice and the changes are for the players and all of that.

    Now that I saw a similar survey sent yesterday, It leads me to believe they are at least considering making changes again. Which is why I’m reaching out to see what kind of feedback they have been receiving.

  • deejones49

    I think we need the plus/minus back to stop people from double stacking the same game. If you are behind you could have a 44 point swing with the plus/minus

  • SpoWeezy

    @deejones49 said...

    I think we need the plus/minus back to stop people from double stacking the same game. If you are behind you could have a 44 point swing with the plus/minus

    Completely agree with this. There were a lot more swings up and down the standings with +\- involved. That was one of the most fun parts of playing.

    Deejones49 did you take the survey from yesterday?

  • wahnd

    @SpoWeezy said...

    By the reasons I just explained to you. I used +\- as a metric to increase potential on each goal scored.

    By taking it away you also decrease the productivity of a single goal relative to the scoring system. And in return you are tasked with finding the remaining points through stats like blocked shots, which don’t go well with players who add offense to the scoresheet.

    I also don’t think that they reviewed data to make the changes. They sent a survey out over the summer asking for opinions on the scoring system. I talked with my FD rep at length about this and he informed me a couple weeks before the start of the season that they were making the changes.

    This is why their tag line has been that they’ve heard your voice and the changes are for the players and all of that.

    Now that I saw a similar survey sent yesterday, It leads me to believe they are at least considering making changes again. Which is why I’m reaching out to see what kind of feedback they have been receiving.

    Thanks. Hopefully someone from FD can post here and answer your well thought out questions.

    *I didn’t receive an email. Maybe they only sent it to specific players.

  • J2B

    I don’t see what edge has been lost. I rarely see people double stacking one game.

    There is no skill required for +\- imo.

    The only thing +\- did was deter some players from stacking certain teams. Thus brining up ownership %. Now without +/- you have more players willing to take riskier lines.

    I can see both sides of he argument and I wasn’t trying to come off the way I did. My apologies.

  • kroto

    i took the survey, i told them i wanted +- back in the comment section, and gave an unsatisfactory grade in the scoring and contest sizing category, hopefully other do and they change it back..

  • wisertime

    every year, I usually start off slow in FD hockey, but this year it’s been brutal for me. I don’t know if the scoring changes has anything to do with it , but after reading all the posts, I am starting to wonder. I seriously considering playing at DK, instead of FD, even though it’s basically the same as FD with lower scoring. FD hockey is starting feel similiar to buying a scratch off ticket.

  • jakehari

    • 185

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    • Ranked #10

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    • 2018 DraftKings FHWC Finalist

    @J2B said...

    I rarely see people double stacking one game.

    Many of the current top entries in the breakaway double stacked TB-TOR. Not saying it will hold, but people are definitely doing it. This wouldn’t make sense to do because most players on TOR have negative +/- despite scoring 3 goals. I agree it takes away so much skill and also fun. Anyone who knows anything about the NHL could have seen that this would be a high-paced game and could have double stacked it.

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